Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
That seems a really cool presentation Romaine! Thanks for sharing in this thread. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend Wikimedia this year, but I hope to see the video from this presentation and the discussions about it later! :) Hugs, Tom 2014-05-16 14:13 GMT-03:00 Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com: Hello all, I had a discussion with Fabrice about how a culture of Kindness and Fabrice also made a submission for Wikimania about it: https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/A_Culture_of_Kindness In the past years I notice very much how easy discussions can go in the wrong direction as all the facial expressions and intonation are lost when users write a message on a talk page. Many many times this goes wrong, and users have a different interpretation of what someone else said what causes a fight on the wiki. If users are smart they find out that in fact the difference between them is very small with (usually) only a very slight difference in focus, but in general they agree with each other, but they don't realize that on the moment of the discussion. (If users with good will aren't that smart to discover that, such can grow out to a fighting situation for many years.) If I estimate I would say at least 50% of all troubled discussions are causes by miscommunication as the result of words being read differently as result of missing facial expressions and intonation what most people are used to have in the communication with people around them. If certain users are deaf, autistic or dyslectic, or have such background, this is even worsened. For some years I say that if I can follow a training to improve textual communication to better understand how things are perceived, I really like to follow such training. As I don't know of any, I started to figure out and collect what communication mistakes are made what cause troubles between users with the intention of creating a guide for users, to let them understand why some communication gives worse results. Romaine -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Hello all, I had a discussion with Fabrice about how a culture of Kindness and Fabrice also made a submission for Wikimania about it: https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/A_Culture_of_Kindness In the past years I notice very much how easy discussions can go in the wrong direction as all the facial expressions and intonation are lost when users write a message on a talk page. Many many times this goes wrong, and users have a different interpretation of what someone else said what causes a fight on the wiki. If users are smart they find out that in fact the difference between them is very small with (usually) only a very slight difference in focus, but in general they agree with each other, but they don't realize that on the moment of the discussion. (If users with good will aren't that smart to discover that, such can grow out to a fighting situation for many years.) If I estimate I would say at least 50% of all troubled discussions are causes by miscommunication as the result of words being read differently as result of missing facial expressions and intonation what most people are used to have in the communication with people around them. If certain users are deaf, autistic or dyslectic, or have such background, this is even worsened. For some years I say that if I can follow a training to improve textual communication to better understand how things are perceived, I really like to follow such training. As I don't know of any, I started to figure out and collect what communication mistakes are made what cause troubles between users with the intention of creating a guide for users, to let them understand why some communication gives worse results. Romaine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Tom, 1. You appear to be trying to convince the members of this list, and possibly later by extension, the members of the Wikimedia community, to communicate in a less stridently adversarial mode than is currently apparent. 2. I completely agree with all points expressed, and consider Dennett to be rather good at expressing himself. Well done for finding this and sharing it here. 3. This is a good way of making the point. 4. Sorry, can't think of any rebuttals or criticism at this point. Cheers, Peter PS. For the cynical - absolutely no irony intended. -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Everton Zanella Alvarenga Sent: 14 May 2014 03:27 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakeshttp://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking*http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3950/7491 - Release Date: 05/13/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? A. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakes http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
This is highly needed, thanks for sharing. Dennis Pierri On 14/05/2014, at 08:56, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakeshttp://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking*http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.ukwrote: On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more often. That said, in other cases it can prevent people putting their heels in the sand, and lead to more constructive debate, and less arguing. The initially longer communication style in that case actually saves time (and frustration) in the longer run. In some ways it can be compared to band-aid fixes in software design. It might be quicker and easier now, but can lead to headaches and trouble later. Most (all?) programming best-practices should sometimes be avoided, and there can be a lively debate on when they should and shouldn't be ignored. A communication style like this can be seen as an analogy to a development best practice. Sometimes it's a good idea, sometimes it adds nothing but hassle, and sometimes its actively counterproductive and harmful. But it's always worth knowing and considering, especially since mailinglists don't tend to have an --amend switch for commits. --Martijn -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 15 May 2014 09:20, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? I agree, it sure is great advice. A shorter version is the management classic good news sandwich. Here's a version similar to those you might see used in emails: 1. Your email was illuminating, we have no doubt that you great passion and commitment as a Wikimedian. 2. Based on what some might see as disruptive comments, you have been blocked from the list. There is no appeal process but you can try writing to the moderators if you wish. I suggest trying in six months time to expect a reply. 3. The contributions you make to our projects are great. I look forward to seeing the time you save, being used to be even more productive! It's a great technique, nobody can claim that an email structured this way is unpolite or intended as personal. It could be a bit obvious for anyone familiar with the classics though... Thanks everyone for chipping in with their views, nice to see such varied perspectives. Related blog: http://alexrichardson.co.uk/thoughts-from-the-non-pro-screenwriter-how-to-give-feedback/ Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 15 May 2014 12:22, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more often. Thanks for the demonstration. That said Sorry, tl;dr ;-) -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Andy, you seem concerned that people won't take the time to fully read responses composed this way. I think it's important to get to the point as well and appreciate the reminder. However, I think it may be possible to follow the form and keep disagreements brief. :) Maggie On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.ukwrote: On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Good point Asaf :-) 2014-05-15 5:20 GMT-03:00 Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org: This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? A. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakes http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakeshttp://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking*http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
