Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
the wiki syntax must go away,
{{citation needed}}
and will go away.
{{citation needed}}
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On 25 October 2014 15:09, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 Quite apart from other issues, the author falls at the first hurdle; he fails to say what an IDE is. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away. I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 October 2014 15:09, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: [...] https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 Quite apart from other issues, the author falls at the first hurdle; he fails to say what an IDE is. ... so, what is it?? /me searches ah, Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment Annotated image: http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/267990999/Integrated_Development_Environment_IDE_software_for_embedded.jpg We already have many of these components (requested in the medium post, or in the image), as needed for editing an article: * Syntax highlighter https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Remember_the_dot/Syntax_highlighter (gadget) * Ajax preview (A few options. I've used user:js/ajaxPreview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Js/ajaxPreview for many years and love it and strongly recommend it) * Split preview (side-by-side) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_scripts#Previewing (although that doesn't have simultaneous scrolling, which would be fancy/nice. Also the width-drag doesn't seem to work. It probably just needs an update after 6 years..) * integrating the diff viewer with the syntax highlighted source text, sounds incredibly confusing, so let's not do that. Besides, we have ajax Show Changes. * We have a Section-edit link, for jumping to the right section * We have a Template/Page transclusion list, under the edit-source textarea We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.) It would be nice to get some of those userscripts turned into (global)Gadgets and/or Extensions, but they're all usable. The only thing they (and all our fancy optional extras) really need, is better visibility. There are a number of ideas to do that, at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Redesign_user_preferences and (especially the bottom of) it's talkpage. More ideas appreciated. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On 10/25/14, 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. What do you expect it to be replaced with? I don't care about wikitext per se, but as an external consumer of the open-source data dumps, having articles be in *some* kind of markup format is quite useful to me. The same is true for editing bots, among other things. And as long as there is some format, the IDE can simply target that format. :-) I can imagine many ways the markup format could be better, so by all means let's improve it. But I can also imagine a lot of ways the situation could be worse— such as not having a markup format! Best, Mark ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
Keep in mind that the projects on Y are brainstorms/seeds -- so it is important to keep that in perspective. By the time they've evolved they often look radically different. That said I think there is kernel of truth there. Our components solve often every problem with one solution. We do need a way to code on top of wikis, but that is not necessarily the same thing as a tool to quickly add/remove text. But we tend to think of them as one. Do we need a better interface for writing components of top of wikis -- I'd think so. Do we need a better way to edit text -- for sure. Are those two the same thing? Lila On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
Oh, it will remain, just internally. Maybe some day it will be replaced with pure XML, but that day is far away, and by the time it happens editors aren't supposed to care. (That's just me fantasizing; Parsoid people may have a different idea.) -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2014-10-25 21:44 GMT+03:00 Mark delir...@hackish.org: On 10/25/14, 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. What do you expect it to be replaced with? I don't care about wikitext per se, but as an external consumer of the open-source data dumps, having articles be in *some* kind of markup format is quite useful to me. The same is true for editing bots, among other things. And as long as there is some format, the IDE can simply target that format. :-) I can imagine many ways the markup format could be better, so by all means let's improve it. But I can also imagine a lot of ways the situation could be worse— such as not having a markup format! Best, Mark ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
People Who Are Able to Edit Articles But Not to Code dismiss wiki syntax much more than I do. Most of them don't even bother to begin to understand it. The few who do are a rare exception. A wiki syntax IDE will not go a long way, as the article says, in helping them edit. They will still be forced to do mental mapping from [[]] to links, from to headings, and so on, even if it's shown side-by-side. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2014-10-25 21:22 GMT+03:00 Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com: On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away. I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
I haven't had that experience with lightweight markup around here. The humanities, journalism, and creative-writing academics are the ones who seem to be the most enthusiastic adopters of Markdown in particular. It's taking off quite a bit as part of a simplify/concentrate movement, where people find WYSIWYG editors like Word too distracting, so have moved to using Markdown as a minimalist editing environment to concentrate on writing, at least for drafts. It also helps that it's easy to e-mail around. People Who Code are actually mostly absent from that trend— I don't think I've ever met a computer scientist who writes papers in Markdown. Wikitext, of course, especially as typically used in Wikipedia, does not look as nice and minimalist as an article draft in Markdown does. Which is where I think the majority of the problem lies, not in the concept of markup itself. -Mark On 10/25/14, 9:46 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: People Who Are Able to Edit Articles But Not to Code dismiss wiki syntax much more than I do. Most of them don't even bother to begin to understand it. The few who do are a rare exception. A wiki syntax IDE will not go a long way, as the article says, in helping them edit. They will still be forced to do mental mapping from [[]] to links, from to headings, and so on, even if it's shown side-by-side. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore 2014-10-25 21:22 GMT+03:00 Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com: On Oct 25, 2014 8:03 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Perpetuating it with a dedicated IDE wouldn't help it go away. I doubt that. Side by side wikitext and result, making you see the result of either in the other in real time could help adoption of wysiwyg techniques, help improve them, and help people ease in to using them. Your wonton dismissiveness is worrysome to me. בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 20:51, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 7:20 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Because, even though I'm well aware of the fact that lots of experienced wikipedians love wiki syntax, the wiki syntax must go away, and will go away. Maybe in five years, maybe ten, maybe twenty. But it will go away. Investing effort in an IDE for it is pointless. So fortunately we didn't invest in something five years ago with an expected lifespan of 10 to 25 years? Templates are, indeed, programs. Articles aren't. Wikidata and Winter (or something like Winter) will remove the need to edit transclusions as part of the articles' source code in maybe three years (maybe much less). Development should focus on that, rather than on an IDE for a language that should as soon as possible become transparent to all editors. (This is not an official representation of the Wikimedia Foundation's opinion.) בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 19:40, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com כתב: On Oct 25, 2014 6:17 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote: Thank goodness this wasn't written five years ago, otherwise somebody could get the awful idea to implement it. Having a side by side really time wikitext - display doesn't sound like an aweful idea at all to me. I'm quite surprised anyone would find that aweful actually. I don't understand why you're so dismissive of that idea. --Martijn בתאריך 25 באוק 2014 18:26, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl כתב: I spotted this article linked from news.ycombinator.com, arguing -well- what it says on the tin. ;-) Apologies if someone else already posted a link. https://medium.com/@MrJamesFisher/wikipedia-needs-an-ide-not-a-wysiwyg-editor-7acd85b582c8 I'm not sure scratches head. Well, if we allow lua in templates, I suppose things actually are already pretty Interesting. sincerely, Kim Bruning ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On 10/25/2014 03:38 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: (That's just me fantasizing; Parsoid people may have a different idea.) Parsoid, AFAIK, represents marked up articles as very strict HTML with Mediawiki-specific attributes - exactly what is needed to maintain a sane and consistent machine readable and manipulable representation, but about as human-friendly as a punch in the face. The idea, of course, is that we want the program and not people to have to manipulate the internal representation because, no matter how simplified you try to make it, editing code still sucks for 99% of humans. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
quiddity, 25/10/2014 20:26: We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.) Are you sure we don't? Well, last time I used livepreview was probably 2007 or so, but it's still in preferences. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/special:search/livepreview also not very useful. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia needs an IDE, not a WYSIWYG editor
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:23 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: quiddity, 25/10/2014 20:26: We don't have HTML preview, which might be interesting. Surely it's possible to whip up a userscript for it, if anyone would actually find it massively useful. (Or, we can just leave the browser's own Web Developer bar open to see the HTML. ctrl-f is our friend.) Are you sure we don't? Well, last time I used livepreview was probably 2007 or so, but it's still in preferences. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/special:search/livepreview also not very useful. See links for Live preview earlier on in my message (a.k.a. Ajax Preview). (Or to repeat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Js/ajaxPreview which I heartily recommend, and there are 3 alternative items linked at the bottom of that page. The one in Special:Preferences isn't nearly as good.) Re: HTML-preview: I suspect I've misunderstood that section of the Medium post (I thought he was coming at it from a debugger angle, but possibly not). Now that I re-read it, I think maybe he's just asking for synchronous scrolling selection-highlighting in the side-by-side preview? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
