Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern. I also described another possible scenario. A. On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava" wrote: Hello Asaf, In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns, the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out, the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up. Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and we wish to learn more of this. In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court, you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the community to decide. Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list. At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly. To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query, please. Abhinav On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov wrote: > Folks, > > As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one > thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses > defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about > which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern > raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to > pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread), > *in a separate thread*. > > I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership > and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern > directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be > representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond > with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance > or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it, > apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you > for doing the right thing. > > If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all > means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the > community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how > that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can, > and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking > about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be > welcomed by the community on this mailing list. > > I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but > please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and > let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations. > > Warmly, > > Asaf > > [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for > our movement? it is here: > >
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hello Asaf, In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns, the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out, the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up. Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and we wish to learn more of this. In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court, you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the community to decide. Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list. At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly. To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query, please. Abhinav On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 2:33 AM Asaf Bartov wrote: > Folks, > > As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one > thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses > defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about > which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern > raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to > pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread), > *in a separate thread*. > > I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership > and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern > directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be > representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond > with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance > or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it, > apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you > for doing the right thing. > > If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all > means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the > community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how > that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can, > and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking > about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be > welcomed by the community on this mailing list. > > I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but > please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and > let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations. > > Warmly, > > Asaf > > [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for > our movement? it is here: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public... > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava > wrote: > >> Hello Bodhisattwa, >> >> The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you >> stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" . >> >> Apologies for getting this statement wrong,
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Folks, As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread), *in a separate thread*. I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you for doing the right thing. If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can, and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be welcomed by the community on this mailing list. I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations. Warmly, Asaf [1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for our movement? it is here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public... On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava wrote: > Hello Bodhisattwa, > > The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you > stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" . > > Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have. > > I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from > WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I > hope you would be in consent with this. > > I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations. > I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays > any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC) > Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you. > > Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many > emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them > together. This would otherwise lead to spamming. > > Abhinav > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < > bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Hi Abhinav, >> >> >> >> 1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone >>> and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since >>> the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on >>> this. >>> >> >> Sorry missed this part, >> >> Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said >> that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me, >> my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have >> noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list, >> so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved, >> otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I >> said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India >> participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in >> mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response >> from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days? >> >> So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic >> in which the thread was initiated, that would be great. >> >> Thanks >> Bodhisattwa >> >> ___ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hello Bodhisattwa, The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my toneI am sorry" . Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have. I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this. I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you. Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them together. This would otherwise lead to spamming. Abhinav On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Abhinav, > > > > 1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone >> and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since >> the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on >> this. >> > > Sorry missed this part, > > Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said > that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me, > my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have > noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list, > so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved, > otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I > said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India > participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in > mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response > from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days? > > So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic > in which the thread was initiated, that would be great. > > Thanks > Bodhisattwa > > ___ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hi Abhinav, 1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone > and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since > the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on > this. > Sorry missed this part, Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me, my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list, so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved, otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days? So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great. Thanks Bodhisattwa ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Thanks Abhinav for all of this. About #3: I indeed reached out to A2K staff and asked about the same questions that you asked me. I cannot day for them and I’d like to assume good faith, but I myself received the venue details late. I personally wanted everything to be done publicly, and discussed widely. But I was a participant rather than an organizer. The way and means of a meeting are not in my hands. Secondly, I prefer in an approach of reflecting on the past and focus only on the learning. For me as a Wikimedian, sharing something useful with the community is important, and I believe I did that with my home community. Could I have done better? For sure, yes. I just didn’t have the bandwidth to write a blog post, or create a learning pattern at that point of time. I had my own disagreements as well. But I think there were valuable takeaways and I want to congratulate A2K for bringing those people for two days. I’d personally try (and have tried to do some in the last couple of engagements with the community) to fill the gaps that I experienced there. Similarly, the points that I shared earlier were not to blame A2K or Rahul or WMIN, but to see the possibility of bettering the process. Maybe we all messed up small or big, and there is a way to better in our future work. I’m committing to engage more openly and transparently as a long time Wikimedian, and a representative of the Odia Wikimedians User Group. Cheers! Subhashish > On Aug 2, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Amritasya Putra > wrote: > > My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. > > Regards. > >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava >> wrote: >> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, >> >> >> >> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having >> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from >> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The >> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly in >> nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a behaviour. >> >> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, >> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been better. >> When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value judgements >> along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a better >> manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. >> >> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired >> and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. >> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing >> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the >> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your >> mail. >> >> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I >> would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the >> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, >> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from >> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of its >> recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies started >> providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we requested you >> to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee members did not >> earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and others. We did it >> because we always believed in you, your work has been fantastic even >> community members used to express their happiness to us for on having >> supported Bodhisattwa. >> >> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened >> to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and >> your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. >> Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also >> a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the >> institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar >> position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper tone >> and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members in >> promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. >> >> >> >> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other thread. >> This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been happening >> without community being informed anything. This just not concerns one >> person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates conference >> was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia Conference. To >> my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the conference were >> invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
sorry again, few corrections from my side about the numbering, Hi Abhinav, 1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains unanswered. 5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it will remain between us. 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. Thanks, On 2 August 2018 at 14:31, Bodhisattwa Mandal wrote: > sorry, few corrections, > > Hi Abhinav, > > 1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but > attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the > non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I > still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains > unanswered. > > 5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to > see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki > where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself > to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it > will remain between us. > > 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were > true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have > first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not > revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of > that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. > > Thanks, > > > On 2 August 2018 at 14:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal > wrote: > >> Hi Abhinav, >> >> 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to >> see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki >> where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself >> to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it >> will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone >> appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I >> question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened >> and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, >> which still remains unanswered. >> >> 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were >> true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have >> first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not >> revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of >> that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. >> >> Thanks, >> >> On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra >> wrote: >> >>> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava >>> wrote: >>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a behaviour. While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your mail. Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
sorry, few corrections, Hi Abhinav, 1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains unanswered. 5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it will remain between us. 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. Thanks, On 2 August 2018 at 14:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal wrote: > Hi Abhinav, > > 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to > see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki > where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself > to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it > will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone > appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I > question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened > and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, > which still remains unanswered. > > 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were > true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have > first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not > revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of > that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. > > Thanks, > > On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra > wrote: > >> My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. >> >> Regards. >> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having >>> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from >>> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The >>> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly >>> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a >>> behaviour. >>> >>> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, >>> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been >>> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value >>> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a >>> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. >>> >>> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently >>> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. >>> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing >>> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the >>> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your >>> mail. >>> >>> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia >>> India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of >>> the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally >>> say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid >>> from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one >>> of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies >>> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we >>> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee >>> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and >>> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been >>> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for >>> on having supported Bodhisattwa. >>> >>> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there >>> happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning >>> you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in >>> supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who >>> questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as >>> a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be >>> in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning >>> with no so proper tone and taking names.
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hi Abhinav, 1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains unanswered. 6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it.. Thanks, On 2 August 2018 at 12:06, Amritasya Putra wrote: > My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. > > Regards. > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava > wrote: > >> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, >> >> >> >> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having >> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from >> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The >> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly >> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a >> behaviour. >> >> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, >> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been >> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value >> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a >> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. >> >> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently >> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. >> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing >> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the >> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your >> mail. >> >> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, >> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the >> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, >> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from >> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of >> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies >> started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we >> requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee >> members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and >> others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been >> fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for >> on having supported Bodhisattwa. >> >> Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there >> happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning >> you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in >> supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who >> questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as >> a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be >> in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning >> with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the >> community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. >> >> >> >> Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other >> thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been >> happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns >> one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates >> conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia >> Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the >> conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what >> was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my >> understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like >> Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for >> transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report >> etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on >> Meta about this meeting? >> >> >> >> To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency >> has been happening so I though of voicing
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly. Regards. On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava wrote: > Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, > > > > I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having > expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from > the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The > mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly > in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a > behaviour. > > While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, > debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been > better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value > judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a > better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. > > As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired > and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. > Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing > list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the > mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your > mail. > > Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, > I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the > community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, > Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from > their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of > its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies > started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we > requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee > members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and > others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been > fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for > on having supported Bodhisattwa. > > Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened > to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and > your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. > Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also > a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the > institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar > position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper > tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members > in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. > > > > Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other > thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been > happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns > one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates > conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia > Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the > conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what > was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my > understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like > Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for > transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report > etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on > Meta about this meeting? > > > > To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency has > been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to keep > informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly work > reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does not > even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are in > the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone > volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment. > Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers. > > > > At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your > voice but maintain friendly spirt. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:26 AM Satdeep Gill > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on >> Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions. >> >> I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to >> Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also >> some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania. >> >> All this can help ensure trust of the
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hello Bodhisattwa, Subhashish, Satdeep and All, Thanks for Writing Back! To avoid the jumping up of issues, I have listed them point-wise, in case I have missed any please feel free to add. 1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on this. 2. As highlighted by Subhashish, it is essentially the problem of organizational process. I would like to add that the role is essentially not restricted to Wikimedia India or CIS-A2K but also User Groups and Wikimedia Foundation Staff. All need to look coherent and work together. For instance, Satdeep is often questioned for being part-time WMF employee, being AffCom Committee member (attending the Berlin Conference in this capacity) and then Wikimania (attending as a volunteer). Not only the Indian community but also foundation needs to reflect on this. Having a say in recognizing User Groups in India and simultaneously being holding India Outreach Office. Satdeep, my friend, nothing personal, but better understanding can be made here. 3. Bengaluru Meetings: Subhashish, my question is why is community made ignorant about such meeting. Your previous message only tells me that you were part of it. Like the healthy bullet points you have shared, you should have initiated the same process out there. You knew about the meeting and attended it. The amount of experience you carry, you should be more careful and lead other fellow community members. 4. I believe there is nothing bounding CIS-A2K staff from hiring someone to do their reports. I believe they could have already done that. All I meant, CIS-A2K has such a big staff base still someone cannot find time to share it on the mailing list and even if someone visits their official Meta page – Report Section, one does not even find 2018 listed. Additional Comments – 5. Bodhisattwa, the details on your Wikimania trip have been shared on your personal email address. I would request you to acknowledge the same here. 6. Bodhisattwa, last time I voted in Indian General Elections 2014, I had come to know that Rs 15 lakh would come in my bank account. Neither did I vote for that person, nor it has reached me. I am putting this on the official record, the day I receive it, I will donate entire money to Wikimedia projects Is there a substance to what you are hearing? I do not know what is this about, but if there is any paperwork please share it. Otherwise, no speculative talk on the mailing list, please. A strict No! (Can Drop Additional Comments ) Abhinav On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:02 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal < bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Abhinav, > > Thanks for your mail. > > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2018, 11:13 Abhinav srivastava, > wrote: > >> Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, >> >> >> >> I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having >> expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from >> the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The >> mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly >> in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a >> behaviour. >> >> While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, >> debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been >> better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value >> judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a >> better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. >> > > I understand, as a past EC member of WMIN, you are feeling bad with my > tone, for that I am sorry. I request you to ignore my tone and discuss > about my question. How can a non-scholarship recipient and not in the > waiting list be selected to attend Wikimania with donation money depriving > those who were in the waiting list. I just want to know about the > documentation, so that everything becomes clear to me. > > >> As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently >> inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. >> Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing >> list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the >> mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your >> mail. >> >> Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, >> I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the >> community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, >> Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from >> their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of >> its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies >> started providing
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Hi Abhinav, Thanks for your mail. On Thu, 2 Aug 2018, 11:13 Abhinav srivastava, wrote: > Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, > > > > I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having > expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from > the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The > mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly > in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a > behaviour. > > While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, > debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been > better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value > judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a > better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. > I understand, as a past EC member of WMIN, you are feeling bad with my tone, for that I am sorry. I request you to ignore my tone and discuss about my question. How can a non-scholarship recipient and not in the waiting list be selected to attend Wikimania with donation money depriving those who were in the waiting list. I just want to know about the documentation, so that everything becomes clear to me. > As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired > and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. > Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing > list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the > mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your > mail. > > Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, > I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the > community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, > Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from > their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of > its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies > started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we > requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee > members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and > others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been > fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for > on having supported Bodhisattwa. > For that, I am always thankful to WMIN, specially Yohann and you, as I got support when it was badly needed. I have never forgotten that and will never forget. But things have changed now in WMIN. I along with other patricipants in the conference from India have heard of future plans and incidents related to present WMIN president, which are not in the spirit of the Wikimedia movement. If you want to know about those, I can tell, others can confirm, if they are true or not. > Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened > to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and > your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. > Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also > a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the > institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar > position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper > tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members > in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites. > It is completely new for me, or may be I have completely forgotten, when did that happen that some senior member objected against my Wikimania participation on an Indian language village pump. Can you please send me the link of that discussion, so that I can remember everything. Pardon my retrograde amnesia, may be I am getting old and my memory cells are not working as before. As it was my second Wikimania and luckily I got a full scholarship to attend the conference, I am really interested to see that discussion and comprehend from the point of objection again. Please send me the link, dont forget, please. > At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your > voice but maintain friendly spirt. > As I said before, please, my friend, ignore my tone and stick to the question I asked. Waiting for your reply, Bodhisattwa ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
Totally agree, Abhinav. Much appreciate for highlighting the friendly space aspect as that is very important (and is a very difficult balancing act). For some context, esp. those who are not in the Wikimania list, sharing below what I wrote there earlier. Though I’m not sure if it’d be right to take names here, but this is probably an opportunity to discuss about: - if there is a need for consensus when a Wikimedia affiliate provides support to one person from another affiliate - if an affiliate provides support if they share it on wiki for transparency or not - Wikimania scholarship recipients generally create Learning Patterns and write reports. These are good practices in general but making it mandatory for the scholarship recipients brings out a really valuable pool of knowledge which otherwise might not be the case because of the post- Wikimania fatigue. There is a need for more clarity if non-Wikimania participants (individual/affiliate reps) who travel because of support from another affiliate should also produce the same - If an affiliate decides to provide support, should they announce publicly (on regional mailman lists and meta/village pumps) if there is any conflict. If there was a rationale that the former used to identify certain individuals, should they share that as well? I think discussing these above would be useful in general. I'd reiterate that it is important to discuss about issues because the larger problem is about organizational processes (and open and transparent nature of the same) rather than an individual. So IMO the subject of discussion is is not Rahul but how organizational supports are provided. I generally agree with Abhinav's points. Also, much appreciate Wikimedia India leadership for their contribution to the movement in difficult times. That said, there is a need to discuss about the issues that concern the larger Indian community, and both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are two major stakeholders. It would be great to hear from each side how they see this. About the Bangalore meeting prior to WMCON, I joined as an Odia Wikimedians UG rep, and shared the outcomes of the same with my community in serveral occasions. I didn't create an LP and I still hold myself accountable for the same. On the last bit about CIS-A2K's reporting, I personally don't think a team that is paid can be compared to an organization that is run by volunteers. Maybe an intern can do it, but the community might be interested to volunteer to write CIS-A2K's reports. Again, my personal view. Subhashish On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Abhinav srivastava wrote: > Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All, > > > > I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having > expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from > the notion of “Constantly enduring in fights amongst themselves”. The > mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly > in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a > behaviour. > > While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, > debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been > better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value > judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a > better manner. Otherwise, we haven’t progressed at all. > > As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired > and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. > Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing > list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the > mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your > mail. > > Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, > I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the > community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, > Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from > their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of > its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies > started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we > requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee > members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and > others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been > fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for > on having supported Bodhisattwa. > > Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened > to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and > your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. > Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also > a very senior member and having been
