Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-16 Thread Gordon Joly

On 14/04/12 14:16, Roger Bamkin wrote:
I am aware of the commons botload problem ... I did my share as well. 

I am aware than Commons is not fit for purpose.

Gordo

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-16 Thread Gordon Joly

On 16/04/12 10:26, Gordon Joly wrote:

On 14/04/12 14:16, Roger Bamkin wrote:
I am aware of the commons botload problem ... I did my share as well. 

I am aware than Commons is not fit for purpose.

Gordo

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Commons is not fit for purpose. Trying to get august bodies such a the 
Geogolical Society to use it (as suggested in the workshop) is in my 
opinion a non starters. Archives for All (Access to Archives) is much 
better option for most collections. I have used Chesire3 for a small 
community archive.



http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/

Round pegs, square holes

As for Geograph ... words fail me!

Gordo


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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-16 Thread Charles Matthews
On 16 April 2012 10:30, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote:

  On 16/04/12 10:26, Gordon Joly wrote:

 On 14/04/12 14:16, Roger Bamkin wrote:

 I am aware of the commons botload problem ... I did my share as well.

 I am aware than Commons is not fit for purpose.

 Gordo

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  Commons is not fit for purpose. Trying to get august bodies such a the
 Geogolical Society to use it (as suggested in the workshop) is in my
 opinion a non starters. Archives for All (Access to Archives) is much
 better option for most collections. I have used Chesire3 for a small
 community archive.


 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/

 Round pegs, square holes

 As for Geograph ... words fail me!


As I said there, institutions need to define their purposes, and then act
accordingly. I don't see much percentage in us debating here what fit for
purpose means as a generalised thing applied to Commons. It obviously does
support WP and other WMF projects. I'm all for contrarian views rather than
groupthink, but this thread is starting to ramble.

Charles
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-15 Thread WereSpielChequers
Re Johnbod's comment about Catalot and uncategorised templates, there have
been big improvements to both Hotcat and Catalot this year and the
situation is somewhat improved. The problem now are the images that have
been bot categorised. But Catalot now removes the uncategorised template if
you use it from a Catalot grid ref category to copy otherwise uncategorised
images to another category.

As for finding and searching, sometimes the descriptions are fine,
sometimes you need local knowledge, and sometimes a bit of Googling and
looking the geograph images up on the map identifies the place - its a mix
and categorisation is helpful.

Re Andy's suggestion of creating Geograph categories for places, we could
just categorise the categories of the individual grid squares to the
relevant villages and towns. Of course some will match to multiple places.
But now that Catalot has been improved I'm not sure I see the benefit.

WSC

On 14 April 2012 14:44, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:

 A simple solution would be to create new categories, such as
 Geograph:West Sussex and Geograph:Barnes.

 Bots could then upload images to those, which could be subcategories
 of the respective parent categories, without clogging the latter, and
 images could be switched manually, as they're checked (simply by
 deleting the prefix were applicable).

 On 14 April 2012 14:30, John Byrne j...@bodkinprints.co.uk wrote:
  Yes, many of us are aware of the issues with Geograph, above all WSC.
 
  I agree the categorization side of it has been the real Achilles heel,
 and
  in my experience the problem is often worse than WSC suggests.  When I
  filled up the Commons category for Wimbledon Common,
  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wimbledon_Common,  I found
 that a
  significant number of images were categorized in West Sussex categories
  (what, 80 miles away?) and several others as Barnes (only 5 miles out,
 but
  that's a lot in London).   But the good news was that I was able to find
  these images easily enough through the basic Commons search, as the
 original
  Geograph text info had enough detail.   I've had this sort of result
 doing
  other categories.
 
  I understand that because templates were mostly used to record images as
  uncategorized etc, and categorizing with cat-a-lot doesn't remove these,
 and
  they are a pain to remove when you're doing bulk, these tend not to get
  removed.  So a good number of the images categorized with uncategorized
 or
  category  query templates are actually ok, and we don't have any reliable
  numbers for what is still a problem.Many of the ones supposed to have
  problems don't, and many of the ones supposed to be ok aren't.
 
  If you want images for a place in the UK, you should always do a basic
  search as well as looking at the category.  But actually that's true of
 most
  things on Commons.
 
  Johnbod
 
 
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-14 Thread Charles Matthews
On 13 April 2012 22:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote:

snip


 I don't anticipate that this suggestion to offer a manual commons upload
 for the Geograph users and the high def images they now load would be as
 contentious as it would be to resume the bot based import.

 The kind of debate that has been opened up here is, in Wikipedia terms,
one of the oldest (the Rambot issue of almost a decade ago). I wouldn't
say that the Commons community will necessarily come to the same
conclusions as (English) Wikipedia did, namely that large-scale additions
of free content should not be resisted simply on the grounds that quantity
is in tension with quality. But the precedent agrees with my views as an
end-user, which is that more images implies broader coverage implies I'm
more likely to find there is some image I could use to illustrate an
article when I go to look for one. (I gave an example in another thread
recently, i.e. [[Lewis Cubitt]]).

Charles
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-14 Thread Roger Bamkin
I am aware of the commons botload problem ... I did my share as well.

However we know that Wikipedia has made some very big mistakes. Its still
the best encyclopedia in the world and a marvellous example of man's good
will triumphing over apathy and cynicism. Lets not make the mistake of
blaming Tim Berners Lee for online-pornography and international terrorism
whilst forgetting that some other good things come from his invention as
well. or in this case Geograph

Just because we have had a less than perfect experience with botloading
then lets not foget that as far as I know the first country in the world to
offer a free license picture of every square km was the UK. Wiki loves
monmuments has had difficulty estblishing itself here. One reason is that
we had (in part) done it. I would estimate that there are thousands upon
thousands of well placed images in wikipedia articles because of the
foresight of Geograph.

Or put it another way?? Who should we give the UKWikimedian of the year
awards to?

cheers
Roger

On 14 April 2012 09:11, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.comwrote:



 On 13 April 2012 22:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote:

 snip


 I don't anticipate that this suggestion to offer a manual commons upload
 for the Geograph users and the high def images they now load would be as
 contentious as it would be to resume the bot based import.

 The kind of debate that has been opened up here is, in Wikipedia terms,
 one of the oldest (the Rambot issue of almost a decade ago). I wouldn't
 say that the Commons community will necessarily come to the same
 conclusions as (English) Wikipedia did, namely that large-scale additions
 of free content should not be resisted simply on the grounds that quantity
 is in tension with quality. But the precedent agrees with my views as an
 end-user, which is that more images implies broader coverage implies I'm
 more likely to find there is some image I could use to illustrate an
 article when I go to look for one. (I gave an example in another thread
 recently, i.e. [[Lewis Cubitt]]).

 Charles

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-14 Thread John Byrne

Yes, many of us are aware of the issues with Geograph, above all WSC.

I agree the categorization side of it has been the real Achilles heel, 
and in my experience the problem is often worse than WSC suggests.  When 
I filled up the Commons category for Wimbledon Common, 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wimbledon_Common,  I found 
that a significant number of images were categorized in West Sussex 
categories (what, 80 miles away?) and several others as Barnes (only 5 
miles out, but that's a lot in London).   But the good news was that I 
was able to find these images easily enough through the basic Commons 
search, as the original Geograph text info had enough detail.   I've had 
this sort of result doing other categories.


I understand that because templates were mostly used to record images as 
uncategorized etc, and categorizing with cat-a-lot doesn't remove these, 
and they are a pain to remove when you're doing bulk, these tend not to 
get removed.  So a good number of the images categorized with 
uncategorized or category  query templates are actually ok, and we don't 
have any reliable numbers for what is still a problem.Many of the 
ones supposed to have problems don't, and many of the ones supposed to 
be ok aren't.


If you want images for a place in the UK, you should always do a basic 
search as well as looking at the category.  But actually that's true of 
most things on Commons.


Johnbod

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-14 Thread Andy Mabbett
A simple solution would be to create new categories, such as
Geograph:West Sussex and Geograph:Barnes.

Bots could then upload images to those, which could be subcategories
of the respective parent categories, without clogging the latter, and
images could be switched manually, as they're checked (simply by
deleting the prefix were applicable).

On 14 April 2012 14:30, John Byrne j...@bodkinprints.co.uk wrote:
 Yes, many of us are aware of the issues with Geograph, above all WSC.

 I agree the categorization side of it has been the real Achilles heel, and
 in my experience the problem is often worse than WSC suggests.  When I
 filled up the Commons category for Wimbledon Common,
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wimbledon_Common,  I found that a
 significant number of images were categorized in West Sussex categories
 (what, 80 miles away?) and several others as Barnes (only 5 miles out, but
 that's a lot in London).   But the good news was that I was able to find
 these images easily enough through the basic Commons search, as the original
 Geograph text info had enough detail.   I've had this sort of result doing
 other categories.

 I understand that because templates were mostly used to record images as
 uncategorized etc, and categorizing with cat-a-lot doesn't remove these, and
 they are a pain to remove when you're doing bulk, these tend not to get
 removed.  So a good number of the images categorized with uncategorized or
 category  query templates are actually ok, and we don't have any reliable
 numbers for what is still a problem.    Many of the ones supposed to have
 problems don't, and many of the ones supposed to be ok aren't.

 If you want images for a place in the UK, you should always do a basic
 search as well as looking at the category.  But actually that's true of most
 things on Commons.

 Johnbod


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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-13 Thread WereSpielChequers
Hi Richard,

I'm aware of the categorisation issue and have done a few thousand myself.

Yes there were problems with the earlier Geograph loads, the bot based
categorisation is inadequate and the process has been on hold for a year or
two. I'm not sure that the proportion with incorrect Geocodes was
particularly high, but sometimes the bot would allocate images that only
made sense when you spotted which village names didn't have categories in
the county where the images belonged

In the meantime the Geograph has changed their processes to allow higher
definition images.

I don't anticipate that this suggestion to offer a manual commons upload
for the Geograph users and the high def images they now load would be as
contentious as it would be to resume the bot based import.

WSC

On 13 April 2012 22:14, Richard Wendland rich...@wendland.org.uk wrote:

 Are folks aware of the difficulties there have been with the uploading
 of Geograph photos to the commons?  I would encourage serious study of
 the history of this effort, and the strong objections there have been,
 before going ahead with this.

 I've not been involved in the discussions, but my personal experience of
 the early Geograph uploads is that it effectively destroyed the reasonably
 good categorisation of user uploaded photos, by overwhelming existing
 categories with poorly categorised, and often poor quality photos,
 many of which are unlikely to be of use on any project using commons.

 I personally sorted out the categorisation of many hundred geograph
 photos dumped in the top level of my city's categorisation, which made
 it unusable for practical purposes.  It took many hours to sort this out,
 moving to the appropriate sub-category for a pile of mostly not very good
 photos, many really for not-so-nearby villages that should not have been
 dumped in the city category.

 This problem was addressed after a while by not automatically trying
 to categorise within the normal hierarchy, but creating an alternative
 Geograph grid-square hierarchy, that users are I believe supposed
 to manually recategorise, but I think little of that has been done.
 There are I think currently over 800,000 geograph photos, possibly well
 over a million, in the Geograph categories awaiting an initial ordinary
 category or category review:

 needing category review: 589387
 needing categories by date: 806653
 needing categories by grid square: 50,949 subcats, unknown number of photos

 Also most of the geolocation on Geograph photos is fairly inaccurate,
 which is easy to see of you fire up Google Earth with the WikiCommons
 layer enabled.  Before these arrived most of the photos near my city had
 accurate geolocation, but not any more because of the Geograph images.
 (Though this will improve with new photos as GPS enabled cameras become
 common.)

 I was pretty fed-up with it, though I did not enter the discussions on
 Commons about this, which lead to the upload effort being abandoned.

 Just because there are millions of licence compatible photos out there,
 I see no compelling reason to load them all into commons if that reduces
 the average quality and utility.  What I think we want is tools to very
 easily upload individual images/files when a commons user sees a good
 quality one on compatible sites that s/he wants to use.

 A more minor issue is that the Geograph upload project only uploaded
 640x480 versions into commons, when Geograph in many case has higher
 resolution originals.

 I haven't studied this issue in depth, and am only reporting my experience
 with the Geograph upload.  Here are some starting points for looking at
 the old discussions about this:


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Batch_uploading/Geograph#Indefinitely_on_hold


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Blocks_and_protections/Archive_7#GeographBot


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Batch_uploading/Geograph#Problem_with_geographic_categories


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive_29#User:BotMultichillT


 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_the_Geograph_British_Isles_project_needing_category_review

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Geograph_Britain_and_Ireland

Richard
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[Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-09 Thread WereSpielChequers
Hi, for those who don't know, the Geograph is a photography contest and
site that operates across the UK and Ireland and has a compatible license
to ours. So close to 1.8 million of their images have been imported into
Commons and are a major part of the reason why Commons has such good
coverage of English churches, fields and minor roads. But we stopped mass
importing their images some time ago due to  the difficulty of categorising
them, and there are now a million un copied images including all or almost
all their hi-definition ones.

The Geograph has just become a registered charity much like us. So I
thought I'd check out what their attitude was to our copying and using
their images.

It turns out that they aren't aware that the migration has stalled, as
their site still claims that all their images get migrated to Commons
http://www.geograph.org.uk/faq3.php?q=wikipedia

I think there is a big opportunity for the chapter here, perhaps we could
approach them and suggest changing their upload software to dual use? So
Geograph users have the option of posting their images directly on Commons
provided they add categories.

I suspect there would be some software implications, but if so it might be
a useful use of a UK grant.

WereSpielChequers
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-09 Thread David Gerard
On 9 April 2012 14:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote:

 It turns out that they aren't aware that the migration has stalled, as their
 site still claims that all their images get migrated to Commons
 http://www.geograph.org.uk/faq3.php?q=wikipedia
 I think there is a big opportunity for the chapter here, perhaps we could
 approach them and suggest changing their upload software to dual use? So
 Geograph users have the option of posting their images directly on Commons
 provided they add categories.
 I suspect there would be some software implications, but if so it might be a
 useful use of a UK grant.


+1

Would it be worth approaching the Geograph community and asking them
to work on the categorisation backlog themselves directly?


- d.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-09 Thread Roger Bamkin
Oh I so agree, this would make Wiki Loves Monuments really work for us.
Geograph is a brilliant project and WMUK should support them as easily as
we would wikimedia commons.

(I have a suspicion that photos from Geograph will be less tricky to
categorise if they arrive with geotagging built into the picture.)

so yes +1

On 9 April 2012 14:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 9 April 2012 14:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  It turns out that they aren't aware that the migration has stalled, as
 their
  site still claims that all their images get migrated to Commons
  http://www.geograph.org.uk/faq3.php?q=wikipedia
  I think there is a big opportunity for the chapter here, perhaps we could
  approach them and suggest changing their upload software to dual use? So
  Geograph users have the option of posting their images directly on
 Commons
  provided they add categories.
  I suspect there would be some software implications, but if so it might
 be a
  useful use of a UK grant.


 +1

 Would it be worth approaching the Geograph community and asking them
 to work on the categorisation backlog themselves directly?


 - d.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-09 Thread WereSpielChequers
Thanks Roger. Would it be appropriae for the Board to get our CEO to make
contact?


Currently the Geograph images are geotagged in Commons, but Commons doesn't
have ideal lookup tables to link them to appropriate towns and villages, I
believe a bot was doing much of it based on proximity to the centre of
somewhere, but boundaries are tricky things especially in the UK and the
end result was that some geograph images got miscategorised. In some cases
to the wrong side of the Solent.

There are tables that exist which include boundaries of towns and villages,
and with those tables one can use geocodes to correctly categorise images,
at least to a geographic location. However I doubt if those tables would be
available open source, and though I'm sure they are commercially available
I'm not so sure whether it would be appropriate for us to license them - it
probably isn't viable as any such license is likely to prohibit reverse
engineering which would make it incompatible with Commons anyway. But it
might be worth asking the office to at least make enquiries.

WSC

On 9 April 2012 15:17, Roger Bamkin victuall...@gmail.com wrote:

 Oh I so agree, this would make Wiki Loves Monuments really work for us.
 Geograph is a brilliant project and WMUK should support them as easily as
 we would wikimedia commons.

 (I have a suspicion that photos from Geograph will be less tricky to
 categorise if they arrive with geotagging built into the picture.)

 so yes +1


 On 9 April 2012 14:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 9 April 2012 14:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  It turns out that they aren't aware that the migration has stalled, as
 their
  site still claims that all their images get migrated to Commons
  http://www.geograph.org.uk/faq3.php?q=wikipedia
  I think there is a big opportunity for the chapter here, perhaps we
 could
  approach them and suggest changing their upload software to dual use? So
  Geograph users have the option of posting their images directly on
 Commons
  provided they add categories.
  I suspect there would be some software implications, but if so it might
 be a
  useful use of a UK grant.


 +1

 Would it be worth approaching the Geograph community and asking them
 to work on the categorisation backlog themselves directly?


 - d.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph

2012-04-09 Thread Roger Bamkin
Well I think this links in with wiki loves monuments so i'll send a copy to
Fae as I know he took an interest during the recent meeting although we are
still looking around for a UK flag carrier for the WLM project.

Oh and here is an idea - the Wikipedian of the
Yeahttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/UK_Wikimedian_of_the_Year_2012r
has a special award - we could give it to Geograph - there must thousands
of UK articles that are much more informative due to this project.

On 9 April 2012 15:35, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.comwrote:

 Thanks Roger. Would it be appropriae for the Board to get our CEO to make
 contact?


 Currently the Geograph images are geotagged in Commons, but Commons
 doesn't have ideal lookup tables to link them to appropriate towns and
 villages, I believe a bot was doing much of it based on proximity to the
 centre of somewhere, but boundaries are tricky things especially in the UK
 and the end result was that some geograph images got miscategorised. In
 some cases to the wrong side of the Solent.

 There are tables that exist which include boundaries of towns and
 villages, and with those tables one can use geocodes to correctly
 categorise images, at least to a geographic location. However I doubt if
 those tables would be available open source, and though I'm sure they are
 commercially available I'm not so sure whether it would be appropriate for
 us to license them - it probably isn't viable as any such license is likely
 to prohibit reverse engineering which would make it incompatible with
 Commons anyway. But it might be worth asking the office to at least make
 enquiries.

 WSC


 On 9 April 2012 15:17, Roger Bamkin victuall...@gmail.com wrote:

 Oh I so agree, this would make Wiki Loves Monuments really work for us.
 Geograph is a brilliant project and WMUK should support them as easily as
 we would wikimedia commons.

 (I have a suspicion that photos from Geograph will be less tricky to
 categorise if they arrive with geotagging built into the picture.)

 so yes +1


 On 9 April 2012 14:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 9 April 2012 14:52, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  It turns out that they aren't aware that the migration has stalled, as
 their
  site still claims that all their images get migrated to Commons
  http://www.geograph.org.uk/faq3.php?q=wikipedia
  I think there is a big opportunity for the chapter here, perhaps we
 could
  approach them and suggest changing their upload software to dual use?
 So
  Geograph users have the option of posting their images directly on
 Commons
  provided they add categories.
  I suspect there would be some software implications, but if so it
 might be a
  useful use of a UK grant.


 +1

 Would it be worth approaching the Geograph community and asking them
 to work on the categorisation backlog themselves directly?


 - d.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Geograph images

2010-01-31 Thread Michael Peel
As a result of this, one of the Geograph articles has become  
Wikimedia Commons' 6 millionth file. Please help writing the blog  
post about this:
http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Blog_posts/Geograph_images

:-)

Mike
On 30 Jan 2010, at 19:38, Andrew Turvey wrote:

 Could anyone help us draft a blog post about this?

 I've started a page at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/ 
 Geograph_images

 - Forwarded Message -
 From: Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net
 To: bo...@wikimedia.org.uk WMUK Board bo...@wikimedia.org.uk
 Sent: Saturday, 30 January, 2010 11:58:22 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain,  
 Ireland, Portugal
 Subject: [WMUK Board] Geograph images

 Hi all,

 I've just been given a heads-up that 250,000 images of the UK that
 people have released on Geograph.org.uk are currently being mass-
 uploaded onto Wikimedia Commons:

 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/
 Category:Images_from_the_Geograph_British_Isles_project

 We should probably do a blog post about this sometime soon; next week
 perhaps?

 Mike

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[Wikimediauk-l] Geograph images

2010-01-30 Thread Andrew Turvey
Could anyone help us draft a blog post about this? 

I've started a page at 
http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/Geograph_images 

- Forwarded Message - 
From: Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net 
To: bo...@wikimedia.org.uk WMUK Board bo...@wikimedia.org.uk 
Sent: Saturday, 30 January, 2010 11:58:22 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, 
Portugal 
Subject: [WMUK Board] Geograph images 

Hi all, 

I've just been given a heads-up that 250,000 images of the UK that 
people have released on Geograph.org.uk are currently being mass- 
uploaded onto Wikimedia Commons: 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/ 
Category:Images_from_the_Geograph_British_Isles_project 

We should probably do a blog post about this sometime soon; next week 
perhaps? 

Mike 

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