Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread Dan Garry 
On 27 January 2016 at 22:51, Ori Livneh  wrote:
>
> Ok, understood. Keeping it around costs little. Dan, in case you were
> volunteering, please go ahead and document the purpose of test2 on its main
> page and/or wikitech -- I think it is a good idea.
>

I would be happy to!

I made some changes

to the main page of test2. I also made some changes

to the test2 page on wikitech. Feel free to review and improve.

Thanks,
Dan

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Lead Product Manager, Discovery
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread Rob Lanphier 
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Ori Livneh  wrote:

> Ok, understood. Keeping it around costs little. Dan, in case you were
> volunteering, please go ahead and document the purpose of test2 on its main
> page and/or wikitech -- I think it is a good idea.
>
> If it is cheap to keep it, why did I even bother asking? I'm glad you
> asked!
>
> As the Wikimedia software stack evolves, some of its components become
> vestigial. Their existence makes it harder for anyone to form a systematic
> understanding of the whole, because they don't have any clear functional
> relationships with others components. And since they're not on anybody's
> mind, they have a tendency to become "gotchas" for future upgrades and
> migrations. So it's good to get rid of them, even if the resource costs are
> small.


Hi Ori,

Thanks for bringing this seemingly vestigial weirdness to our attention.
As you say, it should be documented better.

As I'm reading this, you are still making the case that we should still
shut this down.  Given the amount of mailing list traffic this has
generated, not everyone agrees.  Rather than continuing this conversation
on wikitech-l, could you file a Phab task for this (e.g. "Decommission
test2.wikipedia.org"), and direct the conversation there?  That will help
people who care about this topic not only have a more focused audience for
their comments, but will also give us a good way of tracking all of the
things Phab tasks typically track (e.g. owner, priority, dependencies,
resolution)

Rob
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread Ori Livneh 
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Rob Lanphier  wrote:

> Hi Ori,
>
> Thanks for bringing this seemingly vestigial weirdness to our attention.
> As you say, it should be documented better.
>
> As I'm reading this, you are still making the case that we should still
> shut this down.


Sorry, I should have  been clearer. Given the responses (which identified
clear and reasonable use-cases), I think it's perfectly fine to keep it
around. I just wanted to explain why I bothered asking in the first place.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread Ricordisamoa 

Il 28/01/2016 02:30, Dan Garry ha scritto:

On 27 January 2016 at 17:16, Legoktm  wrote:


Especially when debugging and testing cross-wiki features, it is
extremely useful to have two test wikis to use. MassMessage,
GlobalCssJs, GlobalUserPage, and now cross-wiki notifications were all
initially deployed using testwiki as the "central" wiki, and test2wiki
as a "client" wiki.


That sounds like a good reason to keep it, especially since global
notifications is an active, ongoing work. Perhaps, as an alternative to
shutting it down, we should just make it clearer that test2.wikipedia.org
is primarily intended for that purpose on that wiki's main page (or
anywhere else thought appropriate). If there's some specific overhead to
keeping test2 alive that might outweigh that benefit, now would seem to be
the time to make it clear. :-)

Dan



I second Legoktm's comment. And, for what it's worth, I don't think it 
makes much sense to limit test2wiki to a specific purpose.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread aude 
On Jan 27, 2016 9:57 PM, "Ori Livneh"  wrote:
>
> The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different from
> test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?

test2 is used a bit for testing wikibase client stuff like for lua
templates. Forget why but test2 has had wikibase client long before it was
enabled on test Wikipedia.

As wikidata developer, when we roll out new features like arbitrary access,
I also like to have one test Wikipedia with it and one without (while some
wikipedias don't have said feature yet). Helps if we need to debug one or
other setup, or if a bug sneaks by all our phpunit etc tests and beta and
affects one of the configurations, then test + test2 can help.

I don't think there is so much extra maintenance burden of having test2
around to justify closing it, vs benefits it can give.
Cheers,
Katie


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-28 Thread Ori Livneh 
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:17 PM, Ricordisamoa  wrote:

> Il 28/01/2016 02:30, Dan Garry ha scritto:
>
>> On 27 January 2016 at 17:16, Legoktm  wrote:
>>
>> Especially when debugging and testing cross-wiki features, it is
>>> extremely useful to have two test wikis to use. MassMessage,
>>> GlobalCssJs, GlobalUserPage, and now cross-wiki notifications were all
>>> initially deployed using testwiki as the "central" wiki, and test2wiki
>>> as a "client" wiki.
>>>
>>> That sounds like a good reason to keep it, especially since global
>> notifications is an active, ongoing work. Perhaps, as an alternative to
>> shutting it down, we should just make it clearer that test2.wikipedia.org
>> is primarily intended for that purpose on that wiki's main page (or
>> anywhere else thought appropriate). If there's some specific overhead to
>> keeping test2 alive that might outweigh that benefit, now would seem to be
>> the time to make it clear. :-)
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
> I second Legoktm's comment. And, for what it's worth, I don't think it
> makes much sense to limit test2wiki to a specific purpose.


Ok, understood. Keeping it around costs little. Dan, in case you were
volunteering, please go ahead and document the purpose of test2 on its main
page and/or wikitech -- I think it is a good idea.

If it is cheap to keep it, why did I even bother asking? I'm glad you asked!

As the Wikimedia software stack evolves, some of its components become
vestigial. Their existence makes it harder for anyone to form a systematic
understanding of the whole, because they don't have any clear functional
relationships with others components. And since they're not on anybody's
mind, they have a tendency to become "gotchas" for future upgrades and
migrations. So it's good to get rid of them, even if the resource costs are
small.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Alex Monk 
+1 from me for closing it. Do people have important things there, or can it
be 'deleted'?

On 27 January 2016 at 22:01, Chad  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 2:00 PM James Forrester 
> wrote:
>
> > On 27 January 2016 at 13:57, Ori Livneh  wrote:
> >
> > > The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different
> > from
> > > test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
> > >
> >
> > ​I'd be happy for it to be closed.​
> >
> >
> It was only setup ever so we could write/test het deploy.
>
> It became way less useful after we stopped serving test(1)
> from NFS.
>
> Close it.
>
> -Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread James Forrester 
On 27 January 2016 at 14:18, Alex Monk  wrote:

> +1 from me for closing it. Do people have important things there, or can it
> be 'deleted'?
>

​We could just move all the content into testwiki and redirect the ​domain.
;-)

​J.
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Lead Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Legoktm 
On 01/28/2016 08:57 AM, Ori Livneh wrote:
> The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different from
> test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?

Especially when debugging and testing cross-wiki features, it is
extremely useful to have two test wikis to use. MassMessage,
GlobalCssJs, GlobalUserPage, and now cross-wiki notifications were all
initially deployed using testwiki as the "central" wiki, and test2wiki
as a "client" wiki.

Maybe testwikidatawiki could be used in place of test2wiki, but that's
already a bit special...

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Dan Duvall 
There appears to be one periodic Jenkins job running against test2wiki, and
it just started failing today, so we should investigate why.[1] Release
Engineering will look into moving this job to testwiki, but please don't
shut down test2wiki just yet.

[1]
https://integration.wikimedia.org/ci/view/BrowserTests/view/-Dashboard/job/browsertests-PdfHandler-test2.wikipedia.org-linux-firefox-sauce/

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Ori Livneh  wrote:

> The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different from
> test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Derk-Jan Hartman 
3 things come to mind. Not so long ago an invitation was sent to wiki 
communities to use that specific server for VE single edit tab testing. I think 
that should be taken into account. Since this feature has not yet landed in 
production, people might still be using that link to evaluate and would be 
surprised by it suddenly being gone.

And judging from RecentChanges, several editors use it regularly to develop 
scripts, lua or MediaWiki tests etc..

Some people who are admin on test2 or have other elevate rights, might not have 
those rights on test.wp.org

DJ


> On 27 jan. 2016, at 23:18, Alex Monk  wrote:
> 
> +1 from me for closing it. Do people have important things there, or can it
> be 'deleted'?
> 
> On 27 January 2016 at 22:01, Chad  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 2:00 PM James Forrester 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 27 January 2016 at 13:57, Ori Livneh  wrote:
>>> 
 The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different
>>> from
 test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
 
>>> 
>>> ​I'd be happy for it to be closed.​
>>> 
>>> 
>> It was only setup ever so we could write/test het deploy.
>> 
>> It became way less useful after we stopped serving test(1)
>> from NFS.
>> 
>> Close it.
>> 
>> -Chad
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Dan Garry 
On 27 January 2016 at 17:16, Legoktm  wrote:

> Especially when debugging and testing cross-wiki features, it is
> extremely useful to have two test wikis to use. MassMessage,
> GlobalCssJs, GlobalUserPage, and now cross-wiki notifications were all
> initially deployed using testwiki as the "central" wiki, and test2wiki
> as a "client" wiki.
>

That sounds like a good reason to keep it, especially since global
notifications is an active, ongoing work. Perhaps, as an alternative to
shutting it down, we should just make it clearer that test2.wikipedia.org
is primarily intended for that purpose on that wiki's main page (or
anywhere else thought appropriate). If there's some specific overhead to
keeping test2 alive that might outweigh that benefit, now would seem to be
the time to make it clear. :-)

Dan

-- 
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Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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[Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Ori Livneh 
The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different from
test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread James Forrester 
On 27 January 2016 at 13:57, Ori Livneh  wrote:

> The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different from
> test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
>

​I'd be happy for it to be closed.​

​J.
-- 
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Lead Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Close test2wiki?

2016-01-27 Thread Chad 
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 2:00 PM James Forrester 
wrote:

> On 27 January 2016 at 13:57, Ori Livneh  wrote:
>
> > The setup of test2.wikipedia.org is no longer meaningfully different
> from
> > test.wikipedia.org. Is there a good reason for keeping test2?
> >
>
> ​I'd be happy for it to be closed.​
>
>
It was only setup ever so we could write/test het deploy.

It became way less useful after we stopped serving test(1)
from NFS.

Close it.

-Chad
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