RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Now I stand corrected... Rich has cleared things up Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 1:54 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, I agree with your engineer's description. But I'd argue the use of the word prioritization is incorrectly applied to Canopy. Canopy doesn't prioritize VoIP. Priority schemes infer media access preference. Canopy's separate pre-allocated partitions have nothing to do with prioritization as VoIP and general traffic do not compete for a common partition (they each have their own). VL uses prioritization (and uses the term correctly), as VoIP is given priority access (most likely by permitting access with a shorter time gap following other transmissions than general data ... thus VoIP grabs the media first). If VL claims to be the first to implement a VoIP priority it only depends whether anyone else has implemented a true priority scheme already. Canopy's is not a priority scheme in any sense of the term. Prioritization has the clear advantage (no pun intended). Canopy essentially divides the rf into subchannels which loses the ability to dynamically use the channel for in-vs-out, VoIP-vs-general, etc. As the 3rd party testing described, the VoIP call volume cited could only be achieved in a VoIP-only configuration. A true prioritization mechanism (such as embodied in VL) is far superior to pre-allocated partitions in so, so many ways. Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Gino, After you informed me of the way prioritization occurs in your solution, I asked one of our sharp engineers to articulate the differences to me. Here was his reply back and I'd be interested in your feedback: The [prioritization mechanism in the] __ system is different than VL in the way it is deployed and the way it will deploy a priority network. With VL the bandwidth for the sector is totally dynamic, any direction demand can utilize the entire capacity of the base station. __ pre-defines the amount up and down to the sector. Their implementation of the prioritization is stated for DSCP only where we can do it also for ToS. I am not sure if that is unique but keep it in the back of your head. Our WLP is also dynamic; where he stated that you specify the amount of bandwidth for the priority channel, our can/will fluctuate every microsecond during the communication. This will also happen independently in each direction. Because there is a potential for over subscription of prioritized traffic, VL also has an option to set aside some bandwidth for best effort traffic incase the provider creates too much prioritized traffic. This prevents the FTP from a customer from breaking during the high priority traffic times. Make sense? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Back home...ahhh to bad when it ends... Frankly , I don't know ... maybe has to due with the TDD system, next firmware release should improve overall pps capacity Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 2:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it It does sound like a similar smart mechanism Gino -- I stand corrected. If this is who I assume it is though, then why do they report such low VoIP performance per SM and per AP? ...but don't answer any of this until after you leave Vail. Better that you should just enjoy your vacation. Sounds great. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Rich, Thanks for clearing the air on this one. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:54 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, I agree with your engineer's description. But I'd argue the use of the word prioritization is incorrectly applied to Canopy. Canopy doesn't prioritize VoIP. Priority schemes infer media access preference. Canopy's separate pre-allocated partitions have nothing to do with prioritization as VoIP and general traffic do not compete for a common partition (they each have their own). VL uses prioritization (and uses the term correctly), as VoIP is given priority access (most likely by permitting access with a shorter time gap following other transmissions than general data ... thus VoIP grabs the media first). If VL claims to be the first to implement a VoIP priority it only depends whether anyone else has implemented a true priority scheme already. Canopy's is not a priority scheme in any sense of the term. Prioritization has the clear advantage (no pun intended). Canopy essentially divides the rf into subchannels which loses the ability to dynamically use the channel for in-vs-out, VoIP-vs-general, etc. As the 3rd party testing described, the VoIP call volume cited could only be achieved in a VoIP-only configuration. A true prioritization mechanism (such as embodied in VL) is far superior to pre-allocated partitions in so, so many ways. Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Gino, After you informed me of the way prioritization occurs in your solution, I asked one of our sharp engineers to articulate the differences to me. Here was his reply back and I'd be interested in your feedback: The [prioritization mechanism in the] __ system is different than VL in the way it is deployed and the way it will deploy a priority network. With VL the bandwidth for the sector is totally dynamic, any direction demand can utilize the entire capacity of the base station. __ pre-defines the amount up and down to the sector. Their implementation of the prioritization is stated for DSCP only where we can do it also for ToS. I am not sure if that is unique but keep it in the back of your head. Our WLP is also dynamic; where he stated that you specify the amount of bandwidth for the priority channel, our can/will fluctuate every microsecond during the communication. This will also happen independently in each direction. Because there is a potential for over subscription of prioritized traffic, VL also has an option to set aside some bandwidth for best effort traffic incase the provider creates too much prioritized traffic. This prevents the FTP from a customer from breaking during the high priority traffic times. Make sense? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Back home...ahhh to bad when it ends... Frankly , I don't know ... maybe has to due with the TDD system, next firmware release should improve overall pps capacity Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 2:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it It does sound like a similar smart mechanism Gino -- I stand corrected. If this is who I assume it is though, then why do they report such low VoIP performance per SM and per AP? ...but don't answer any of this until after you leave Vail. Better that you should just enjoy your vacation. Sounds great. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using
Re: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
I believe it can now be said without reservation, that if you are using unlicensed and wanting to implement a double play of VoIP + data, the ONLY product out there that can do it in scale and with toll quality is BreezeACCESS VL. Bzzz.. Wrong. Aperto supports toll quality voice of about 400 calls per sector, on 1/3 of the channel width that vl requires. Other than aperto though, I would agree with most of your sentiments. - Jeff -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Back home...ahhh to bad when it ends... Frankly , I don't know ... maybe has to due with the TDD system, next firmware release should improve overall pps capacity Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 2:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it It does sound like a similar smart mechanism Gino -- I stand corrected. If this is who I assume it is though, then why do they report such low VoIP performance per SM and per AP? ...but don't answer any of this until after you leave Vail. Better that you should just enjoy your vacation. Sounds great. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using Diffserv, ( it can be any type of traffic not just voip) Then you activate on the cpe the high priority channel option Set how much bandwidth this high priority channel would use And you are done, The Sector AP identifies all the cpes on the sector using this feature and assings them a 2nd slot of time for this traffic for each cpe, so cpe's using this feature have 2 slots of time to talk to the ap, 1 for priority traffic, the other for regural traffic. Sector wide , all high priority channels of all cpes have priority over regular cpes... So Patrick, what do you think Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Gino, After you informed me of the way prioritization occurs in your solution, I asked one of our sharp engineers to articulate the differences to me. Here was his reply back and I'd be interested in your feedback: The [prioritization mechanism in the] __ system is different than VL in the way it is deployed and the way it will deploy a priority network. With VL the bandwidth for the sector is totally dynamic, any direction demand can utilize the entire capacity of the base station. __ pre-defines the amount up and down to the sector. Their implementation of the prioritization is stated for DSCP only where we can do it also for ToS. I am not sure if that is unique but keep it in the back of your head. Our WLP is also dynamic; where he stated that you specify the amount of bandwidth for the priority channel, our can/will fluctuate every microsecond during the communication. This will also happen independently in each direction. Because there is a potential for over subscription of prioritized traffic, VL also has an option to set aside some bandwidth for best effort traffic incase the provider creates too much prioritized traffic. This prevents the FTP from a customer from breaking during the high priority traffic times. Make sense? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Back home...ahhh to bad when it ends... Frankly , I don't know ... maybe has to due with the TDD system, next firmware release should improve overall pps capacity Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 2:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it It does sound like a similar smart mechanism Gino -- I stand corrected. If this is who I assume it is though, then why do they report such low VoIP performance per SM and per AP? ...but don't answer any of this until after you leave Vail. Better that you should just enjoy your vacation. Sounds great. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using Diffserv, ( it can be any type of traffic not just voip) Then you activate on the cpe the high priority channel option Set how much bandwidth this high priority channel would use And you are done, The Sector AP identifies all the cpes on the sector using this feature and assings them a 2nd slot of time for this traffic for each cpe, so cpe's using this feature have 2 slots of time to talk to the ap, 1 for priority traffic, the other for regural traffic. Sector wide , all high priority channels of all cpes have priority over regular cpes... So Patrick, what do you think Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Patrick, I agree with your engineer's description. But I'd argue the use of the word prioritization is incorrectly applied to Canopy. Canopy doesn't prioritize VoIP. Priority schemes infer media access preference. Canopy's separate pre-allocated partitions have nothing to do with prioritization as VoIP and general traffic do not compete for a common partition (they each have their own). VL uses prioritization (and uses the term correctly), as VoIP is given priority access (most likely by permitting access with a shorter time gap following other transmissions than general data ... thus VoIP grabs the media first). If VL claims to be the first to implement a VoIP priority it only depends whether anyone else has implemented a true priority scheme already. Canopy's is not a priority scheme in any sense of the term. Prioritization has the clear advantage (no pun intended). Canopy essentially divides the rf into subchannels which loses the ability to dynamically use the channel for in-vs-out, VoIP-vs-general, etc. As the 3rd party testing described, the VoIP call volume cited could only be achieved in a VoIP-only configuration. A true prioritization mechanism (such as embodied in VL) is far superior to pre-allocated partitions in so, so many ways. Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Gino, After you informed me of the way prioritization occurs in your solution, I asked one of our sharp engineers to articulate the differences to me. Here was his reply back and I'd be interested in your feedback: The [prioritization mechanism in the] __ system is different than VL in the way it is deployed and the way it will deploy a priority network. With VL the bandwidth for the sector is totally dynamic, any direction demand can utilize the entire capacity of the base station. __ pre-defines the amount up and down to the sector. Their implementation of the prioritization is stated for DSCP only where we can do it also for ToS. I am not sure if that is unique but keep it in the back of your head. Our WLP is also dynamic; where he stated that you specify the amount of bandwidth for the priority channel, our can/will fluctuate every microsecond during the communication. This will also happen independently in each direction. Because there is a potential for over subscription of prioritized traffic, VL also has an option to set aside some bandwidth for best effort traffic incase the provider creates too much prioritized traffic. This prevents the FTP from a customer from breaking during the high priority traffic times. Make sense? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Back home...ahhh to bad when it ends... Frankly , I don't know ... maybe has to due with the TDD system, next firmware release should improve overall pps capacity Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 2:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it It does sound like a similar smart mechanism Gino -- I stand corrected. If this is who I assume it is though, then why do they report such low VoIP performance per SM and per AP? ...but don't answer any of this until after you leave Vail. Better that you should just enjoy your vacation. Sounds great. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using Diffserv, ( it can be any type of traffic not just voip) Then you activate on the cpe the high priority channel option Set how much bandwidth this high priority channel would use And you are done, The Sector AP identifies all the cpes on the sector using this feature
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using Diffserv, ( it can be any type of traffic not just voip) Then you activate on the cpe the high priority channel option Set how much bandwidth this high priority channel would use And you are done, The Sector AP identifies all the cpes on the sector using this feature and assings them a 2nd slot of time for this traffic for each cpe, so cpe's using this feature have 2 slots of time to talk to the ap, 1 for priority traffic, the other for regural traffic. Sector wide , all high priority channels of all cpes have priority over regular cpes... So Patrick, what do you think Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per sector with a MOS (mean opinion score - a rating of voice quality) of 4.1. That's a phenomenal quantity that is more than 10x our main competitor as spelled out in their own relevant VoIP document. So why not just use VL with firmware version 4.0 without getting the WLP feature? The WLP is the key to get the quantity AND THE QUALITY of service since it reserves air priority for the VoIP. So, in a double play business model, it is essential to get MOS voice quality of at least 4.1 and even 4.33 you must implement the WLP. I believe it can now be said without reservation, that if you are using unlicensed and wanting to implement a double play of VoIP + data, the ONLY product out there that can do it in scale and with toll quality is BreezeACCESS VL. Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence
Re: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Interesting technique. I guess thats the beauty of having a CPE that will let us Tag traffic. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:37 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Well, I haven't replied to this earlier cause Im on vacation (skiing @ Vail ) but now, let me add some info... I don't want to get involved in a gear fight, but a brand x gear has a Per Sector prioritization of traffic. It works like this: You set the cpe to identify the traffic to be prioritized using Diffserv, ( it can be any type of traffic not just voip) Then you activate on the cpe the high priority channel option Set how much bandwidth this high priority channel would use And you are done, The Sector AP identifies all the cpes on the sector using this feature and assings them a 2nd slot of time for this traffic for each cpe, so cpe's using this feature have 2 slots of time to talk to the ap, 1 for priority traffic, the other for regural traffic. Sector wide , all high priority channels of all cpes have priority over regular cpes... So Patrick, what do you think Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 12:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per sector with a MOS (mean opinion score - a rating of voice quality) of 4.1. That's a phenomenal quantity that is more than 10x our main competitor as spelled out in their own relevant VoIP document. So why not just use VL with firmware version 4.0 without getting the WLP feature? The WLP is the key to get the quantity AND THE QUALITY of service since it reserves air priority for the VoIP. So, in a double play business model, it is essential to get MOS voice quality of at least 4.1 and even 4.33 you must implement the WLP. I believe it can now be said without reservation, that if you are using unlicensed and wanting to implement a double play of VoIP + data, the ONLY
Re: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Patrick, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Thats pretty cool. But I'd be interested in learning more on how that protocol method interacts with bandwidth allocation per subscriber. This is the problem that I see from the provider point of view. They have two profiles of subscribers, the ones that use their bandwdith, and the ones that don't. The ones that don't can be oversubscribed heavilly, therefore can be sold to at a much lower cost to compete agaisnt commodity cable and DSL competitors. The ones that do, monompolize the network, and need to be sold to at a higher price, often designated at a business class CIR type service, or however else the ISP tends to market the hgiher QOS guarantee service. When the ISP qualifies the prospect appropriately in advance correctly, everyone wins. The ISP gets paid, The High QOS client gets the priority he needs, and the low cost client does not get starved of broadband. The problem occurs when the ISP does not qualify the prospect appropriately. We've learned that every client starts their conversation out, I barely use bandwidth. I just need a very low cost service like ADSL for $49. I'm just doing VOIP, basic Internet use, and creating a VPN between my offices for a central file server. Maybe some occassional video conferencing. But nothing demanding. Or they lie, and say they have one computer just doing limited internet browsing, and you learn they are hosting about 20 web servers and a search engine, or a Bulk Email service. Or if I make it relevent to this thread, they end up putting 20-30 VOIP phones on the service, that they say is just a limited web browsing service. The truth is Managed VOIP is the big bnadwdith hog today. So globally Giving VOIP users first priority over all other traffic could be a big flaw. It would allow the one that misrepresented their need to chew up all the good honest customer's bandwdith. Meaning if VOIP had first priority above all data traffic, the Client paying $49 a month and inappropriately putting 30 VOIP calls on the service, would have better service than the other 20 customers paying $200/month for data services that bought the appropriate bandwidth for their need. So their is a catch 22 on Prioritizing VOIP above all. So the question is... Does Alvarion do anything smart about this, to deliver a fair amount of bandwidth to ALL subs, when prioritizing VOIP? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per sector with a MOS (mean opinion score - a rating of voice quality) of 4.1. That's a phenomenal quantity that is more than 10x our main competitor as spelled out in their own relevant VoIP document. So why not just use VL with firmware version 4.0 without getting the WLP feature? The WLP is the key to get the quantity AND THE QUALITY of service since it reserves air priority for the VoIP. So, in a double play business model, it is essential to get MOS voice quality of at least 4.1 and even 4.33 you must implement the WLP. I believe it can now be said without reservation, that if you are using unlicensed and wanting to implement a double play of VoIP + data, the ONLY product out there that can do it in scale and with toll quality is BreezeACCESS VL. Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
and the grand prize goes to... ? On 1/5/07, Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
I don't think so Gino, but I'm open to be proven wrong. Tell me who else can actually prioritize over the air sector wide. I'm talking about not just pushing out the voice first on any given CPE, I'm talking about ALL the CPE on a sector being able to send its que'd voice out before any CPE can release data into the sector? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it Patrick, not to rain on you parade but you guys area actually 2nd on this RF prioritization feature Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per sector with a MOS (mean opinion score - a rating of voice quality) of 4.1. That's a phenomenal quantity that is more than 10x our main competitor as spelled out in their own relevant VoIP document. So why not just use VL with firmware version 4.0 without getting the WLP feature? The WLP is the key to get the quantity AND THE QUALITY of service since it reserves air priority for the VoIP. So, in a double play business model, it is essential to get MOS voice quality of at least 4.1 and even 4.33 you must implement the WLP. I believe it can now be said without reservation, that if you are using unlicensed and wanting to implement a double play of VoIP + data, the ONLY product out there that can do it in scale and with toll quality is BreezeACCESS VL. Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms
RE: [WISPA] churn, double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it
With all due respect David, VL does not crumble in the face of interference and the notion of that is silly with any objective reasoning. For example, Alvarion sell thousands of VL units into North America every quarter. Either the VL is only sold to markets that are interference free OR VL can reliably work even in interference). Good engineering and good equipment can deal with all but the most onerous situations. Fortunately such situations are rare. I know many of you may find that hard to believe, but if it were true we'd have been forced to stop selling VL ages ago. Quite the opposite is happening. In fact, now with the huge performance gains and the eat-every-other-product's-lunch double play ability in VL that came with version 4.0 coupled with the pricing now available through the AlvarionCOMNET program, I'm seeing more converts to VL than you might believe. Actually, I should qualify that. Few outright conversions, but many now using VL for new markets or adding VL into competitive brand networks for the first time to be able to capture customers and/or deliver services that they could not before. Essentially, I've now finally got the pricing and performance combination that is stirring things up considerably. The principal competition mostly only has fear (psst, psst, you can't survive without sync 'cause the UL world is just too scary for you!) left to keep their WISPs from braving the luscious green grazing outside of its pen. Alas Dave, how long will that keep their flock in line? With VL now at about 40mbps per sector, massive double play ability, about 2X the range per cell as some product, the ability to connect high ARPU enterprise class bandwidth customers period (much less in scale and in pmp), and now CPE pricing in line for even residential...well, it's finally just too tempting for many to ignore anymore. At the very least, it's finally getting some of you to say, Well, let's see for myself if the scary things are true or not. In any event, all this change from the status quo is great for WISPs, if only to have you re-assess your options, improve or grow your business models, or simply reinforce your opinions. Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Sovereen Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it How many VoIP calls does BreezeACCESS VL support at MOS ~ 4.0 in a noisy environment, such as when SNR is = 10? How about = 3? Yes, I already know the answer to these. Maybe it was unfair for me to ask. The issue that you conveniently side-step is that service providers operating in unlicensed spectrum operate in noise, as they do not have control over other users of the same spectrum. For me, because I know I do not fully control RF conditions, the ability to reliably deliver packets reliably, even in the presence of interference, trumps the in-lab performance of equipment where no noise exists, which I don't see as an indicator of reality. Dave - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: [WISPA] churn,double play and why WLP is key - I finally understand it ...So I'm here at our annual national meeting and our project manager is explaining the Wireless Link Prioritization feature available for BreezeACCESS VL. Frankly, it has always seemed esoteric to those of us non-technical types, but now I got and it is simple enough. First, I learned the statistical improvement in churn when a provider has double play VoIP + data customers. We have had a few CLECs report to us that with a single play model their churn is about 9%. Adding double play takes it down to close to 1%. This is critical to the business model because they said a 10% reduction in churn translates into about a 20% improvement in NPV per subscriber. That's obviously huge. So what's the WLP feature available in BreezeACCESS VL have to do with any of this? BreezeACCESS VL can already do QoS priority tagging of packets per CPE using layer 2 (802.11p), layer 3 (IP TOS, DSCP) or layer 4 (TCP/UDP port ranges common with Cisco, for example). That's good and already better than most brands of BWA gear. BUT, that's only PER CPE. In a typical situation, this does not help at all when multiple CPE are on a sector -- there is no prioritization at the RF level in unlicensed from any brand...until now. WLP (also called multimedia application prioritization) actually solves this and enables over-the-air prioritization for the first time in the industry. The translation for this is that BreezeACCESS VL can now deliver massive VoIP, up to 288 concurrent calls per sector with a MOS (mean opinion score - a rating of voice
