Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
Thanks Mikey... I know most of licensed link companies use it, but looking a that $4k price tag makes me really want to think twice about it! Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
What can it do that Radio Mobile does not? I have been engineering microwave paths since 1978. Back in the day it was curved path profile paper and counting elevation lines on a topo map. I have used about a half dozen software products over the years, including the original on line version from ComSearch. I have NEVER had a path perform worse than my estimation. Many times the received signal strength was within 1 dB of prediction. I consider myself a professional and I am a commercial carrier. So, what's so wonderful about pathloss? - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
Chuck, I am probably one of the biggest supporters of Radio Mobile, love the software and agree with you. What Radio Mobile does not do well is things like reliability factors for hot standby and if you build in diversity antennas. For most WISP's this is not an issue. To that end, Radio Mobile does do well because you can get 10 meter resolution terrain data and now with the working clutter model you can do pretty well with that if you buy the data (1 km resolution is free). Radio Mobile also has issues above a certain frequency due to the fact that the Longley Rice model does not work that high. One big drawback to any RF tool is the learning curve and your knowledge of the basic RF theory itself. Knowing the theory helps you to recognize what the software is doing and why you might get errors. Any of them have a time commitment to become proficient and then use the tool to it's full potential. But as you said, it's certainly much easier than doing it from paper maps counting contour lines :-) I wonder how many people on this this even know how to do that? Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 What can it do that Radio Mobile does not? I have been engineering microwave paths since 1978. Back in the day it was curved path profile paper and counting elevation lines on a topo map. I have used about a half dozen software products over the years, including the original on line version from ComSearch. I have NEVER had a path perform worse than my estimation. Many times the received signal strength was within 1 dB of prediction. I consider myself a professional and I am a commercial carrier. So, what's so wonderful about pathloss? - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
Most of the tools use the old ATT long lines long haul and short haul availbility factors that were generated for analog radios. It is the opinion of some that digital radios do not need to need nearly as much fade margin as the old analogs. I would have to say, that our experience with some 60 mile paths using cyclones, I would have to agree with that opinion. Does Pathloss have a different availability formula for digital modulation? - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Chuck, I am probably one of the biggest supporters of Radio Mobile, love the software and agree with you. What Radio Mobile does not do well is things like reliability factors for hot standby and if you build in diversity antennas. For most WISP's this is not an issue. To that end, Radio Mobile does do well because you can get 10 meter resolution terrain data and now with the working clutter model you can do pretty well with that if you buy the data (1 km resolution is free). Radio Mobile also has issues above a certain frequency due to the fact that the Longley Rice model does not work that high. One big drawback to any RF tool is the learning curve and your knowledge of the basic RF theory itself. Knowing the theory helps you to recognize what the software is doing and why you might get errors. Any of them have a time commitment to become proficient and then use the tool to it's full potential. But as you said, it's certainly much easier than doing it from paper maps counting contour lines :-) I wonder how many people on this this even know how to do that? Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 What can it do that Radio Mobile does not? I have been engineering microwave paths since 1978. Back in the day it was curved path profile paper and counting elevation lines on a topo map. I have used about a half dozen software products over the years, including the original on line version from ComSearch. I have NEVER had a path perform worse than my estimation. Many times the received signal strength was within 1 dB of prediction. I consider myself a professional and I am a commercial carrier. So, what's so wonderful about pathloss? - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
I don't know the answer to that question. I have always pondered the issue of fade margin on digital paths. If you factor in an error checking in both the modulation methods and the TCPIP stack, you can deal with minor fades and in many cases you might not even notice a short fade. At that point however you would still need to have a tool that deals well with temperature inversions and rain fade, because if you do get a fade in those situations it more than likely will last long enough to be noticed even on a digital path. But in most cases for WISP's in today's usage patterns they won't run in to those situations. The one thing that will start to push us back to engineering like analog paths, will be the migration towards net applications that are a more constant demand on the pipe and not bursting in nature. Things that would be sensitive to packet resends will start to show a weak backhaul with fading issues. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: Chuck McCown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Most of the tools use the old ATT long lines long haul and short haul availbility factors that were generated for analog radios. It is the opinion of some that digital radios do not need to need nearly as much fade margin as the old analogs. I would have to say, that our experience with some 60 mile paths using cyclones, I would have to agree with that opinion. Does Pathloss have a different availability formula for digital modulation? - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Chuck, I am probably one of the biggest supporters of Radio Mobile, love the software and agree with you. What Radio Mobile does not do well is things like reliability factors for hot standby and if you build in diversity antennas. For most WISP's this is not an issue. To that end, Radio Mobile does do well because you can get 10 meter resolution terrain data and now with the working clutter model you can do pretty well with that if you buy the data (1 km resolution is free). Radio Mobile also has issues above a certain frequency due to the fact that the Longley Rice model does not work that high. One big drawback to any RF tool is the learning curve and your knowledge of the basic RF theory itself. Knowing the theory helps you to recognize what the software is doing and why you might get errors. Any of them have a time commitment to become proficient and then use the tool to it's full potential. But as you said, it's certainly much easier than doing it from paper maps counting contour lines :-) I wonder how many people on this this even know how to do that? Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 What can it do that Radio Mobile does not? I have been engineering microwave paths since 1978. Back in the day it was curved path profile paper and counting elevation lines on a topo map. I have used about a half dozen software products over the years, including the original on line version from ComSearch. I have NEVER had a path perform worse than my estimation. Many times the received signal strength was within 1 dB of prediction. I consider myself a professional and I am a commercial carrier. So, what's so wonderful about pathloss? - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
I'll take a copy of your excel file Charles. ;-) - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Hi Michael, All Pathloss basically does is calculate Vigants-Barnett and/or ITU 530-9 on top of a topo-USA It also doesn't do a good job of taking into account for near/far field interference and all those other black magic Rf affects that occur All-in-all, I don't see much difference between that and the Motorola / Orthogon link calc (which, initially, was just a bunch of ITU models coded into an excel spreadsheet) That said, although one could argue that Pathloss is a good tool for someone who doesn't have an engineering background to quickly design paths, I would counter saying that if you don't actually understand the underlying models behind Pathloss, then you shouldn't be billing yourself as a Microwave engineer =) That said, if one truly understands the background theory behind the availability models, you're probably bright enough to spend the 1-2 hours coding some VB macros into an excel spreadsheet to get the exact same result and you'll have saved yourself $4k -Charles P.S. I've attached a copy of ITU Recommendation P-530-9: Propagation Data and Prediction Methods required for the design of terrestrial line-of-sight systems if anyone is truly interested and wants to learn how stuff actually works -- personally, I think understanding this and Vigants-Barnett should be a pre-requisite for anyone who truly wants to call themselves an Microwave Rf Engineer --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
Bah... You're supposed to be the creative, inquisitive one Chuck =) In all honesty, we've been making some internal changes to accommodate nLoS (specifically, knife-edge and a few others) -- wanna be as nifty and cool as the Orthogon calculator...when that's done, I'll be sure to send it over -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 I'll take a copy of your excel file Charles. ;-) - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Hi Michael, All Pathloss basically does is calculate Vigants-Barnett and/or ITU 530-9 on top of a topo-USA It also doesn't do a good job of taking into account for near/far field interference and all those other black magic Rf affects that occur All-in-all, I don't see much difference between that and the Motorola / Orthogon link calc (which, initially, was just a bunch of ITU models coded into an excel spreadsheet) That said, although one could argue that Pathloss is a good tool for someone who doesn't have an engineering background to quickly design paths, I would counter saying that if you don't actually understand the underlying models behind Pathloss, then you shouldn't be billing yourself as a Microwave engineer =) That said, if one truly understands the background theory behind the availability models, you're probably bright enough to spend the 1-2 hours coding some VB macros into an excel spreadsheet to get the exact same result and you'll have saved yourself $4k -Charles P.S. I've attached a copy of ITU Recommendation P-530-9: Propagation Data and Prediction Methods required for the design of terrestrial line-of-sight systems if anyone is truly interested and wants to learn how stuff actually works -- personally, I think understanding this and Vigants-Barnett should be a pre-requisite for anyone who truly wants to call themselves an Microwave Rf Engineer --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
I can't speak to Pathloss as I have not used it, but I will agree that RM is pretty accurate. It comes down to the accuacy and attention to detail. Garbage in = garbage out. __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 What can it do that Radio Mobile does not? I have been engineering microwave paths since 1978. Back in the day it was curved path profile paper and counting elevation lines on a topo map. I have used about a half dozen software products over the years, including the original on line version from ComSearch. I have NEVER had a path perform worse than my estimation. Many times the received signal strength was within 1 dB of prediction. I consider myself a professional and I am a commercial carrier. So, what's so wonderful about pathloss? - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MichaelDavidLake Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Daniel, Most professionals use Pathloss. Most if not all commercial carriers use Pathloss I've been engineering Paths for 8 years and swear by it. Its worth it Knowing how to use it properly is priceless. I'm not in here much any more because some of the members like to go against the grain and try to re-invent the wheel with their profound knowledge and lack of experience. Pathloss is a winner. I've used it over the yrs to design networks in over 10 major US markets. 100-400 paths per market. Its a great product. You will need to know how to use a GPS. The software ( Pathlosss ) is a great tool but it should be used in coordination with a process of eyes on/ hands on . Nothing is more valuable than Driving the path and terrain to see what the software is showing you on paper. The software isn't going to show things like new construction. It isn't going to show you that 80' tree sitting on the highest terrain feature blocking your path with gear at 60' on the tower/rooftop. Mikey In a message dated 08/05/08 14:35:25 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Pathloss 4
Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
I'll be more than happy to sell you my copy =) Uh...think that answers the question... -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
We use it every day for running path profiles and microwave reliability estimates for customers... I would say we definitely got our money's worth. John Seaman Trango Broadband -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:35 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4
I prefer RadioMobile. - Original Message - From: John Seaman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 We use it every day for running path profiles and microwave reliability estimates for customers... I would say we definitely got our money's worth. John Seaman Trango Broadband -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:35 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Pathloss 4 Anyone on the list using Pathloss 4? Just trying to figure out if the money is really worth it. Thanks! Daniel White 3-dB Networks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
