Re: [WISPA] fm towers
It makes no difference if they are licensed and you are not. It is simple boiler plate in the lease agreement. The tower owner is actually the one that would enforce the issue. The larger tower companies are usually all over fixing the issue, they do not want an industry reputation for not making it right. - Original Message - From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:59 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Sure it does and they did "help" with the cost of redesigning our equipment including some consulting time with their RF Engineer. However, they are a licensed FM station and we ARE operating under unlicensed Part-15 rules. Without having proper designed our equipment in the first place when it was installed 5 years ago, we felt like fighting it in court would be an expensive and most likely futile route. The money was better spent replacing our old fiberglass enclosure with a metal enclosure, running fiber, properly grounding and installing RF shunting to keep their transmitting power out of our equipment as much as possible. It isn't a huge problem anymore except we have to climb the tower at night for any maintenance once the radio station can shut down for the day. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:39 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Does your lease agreement not have a first in clause? Something to make the radio station liable for taking care of the interference they create? --- Original Message --- From: Rick Harnish[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/31/2007 10:26:54 AM To : wireless@wispa.org Cc : Subject : RE: [WISPA] fm towers We had a 7000 watt radio station move onto one of our colo cell tower sites. They turned up the transmitter and we lost Ethernet connectivity to our radios immediately. We replaced the outdoor non-shielded Ethernet cable with shielded and even ran it in conduit (metal). That still didn't fix the problems. We then replaced the shielded with fiber and a better RF resistant box and have seen the connectivity issues disappear. The FM signal still seems to wear on the longevity of our wireless cards over time. I think it tends to deafen the receive sensitivity. This is just another example of what happens when small local radio stations get gobbled up by national players who could care less about playing nice. They are in it to build the station quickly and resell it. Is it their fault that we did not have our equipment designed properly to avoid these types of issues? No! It became a learning experience for us and we are much more careful in our infrastructure design depending on the possibilities of tenants like this collocating on the same structure as us. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward J. Hatfield III Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Yikes-my bad! Apparently the S/N number under discussion is being calculated, not actually measured, and occurs after a CAT5 run down an FM broadcast tower? Well, no wonder! Apologies for previous (well intentioned but poorly predicated) advice . Ted -Original Message- From: Wireless Internet Service Providers Assoc. [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
Sure it does and they did "help" with the cost of redesigning our equipment including some consulting time with their RF Engineer. However, they are a licensed FM station and we ARE operating under unlicensed Part-15 rules. Without having proper designed our equipment in the first place when it was installed 5 years ago, we felt like fighting it in court would be an expensive and most likely futile route. The money was better spent replacing our old fiberglass enclosure with a metal enclosure, running fiber, properly grounding and installing RF shunting to keep their transmitting power out of our equipment as much as possible. It isn't a huge problem anymore except we have to climb the tower at night for any maintenance once the radio station can shut down for the day. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:39 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Does your lease agreement not have a first in clause? Something to make the radio station liable for taking care of the interference they create? --- Original Message --- >From: Rick Harnish[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/31/2007 10:26:54 AM To : wireless@wispa.org Cc : Subject : RE: [WISPA] fm towers We had a 7000 watt radio station move onto one of our colo cell tower sites. They turned up the transmitter and we lost Ethernet connectivity to our radios immediately. We replaced the outdoor non-shielded Ethernet cable with shielded and even ran it in conduit (metal). That still didn't fix the problems. We then replaced the shielded with fiber and a better RF resistant box and have seen the connectivity issues disappear. The FM signal still seems to wear on the longevity of our wireless cards over time. I think it tends to deafen the receive sensitivity. This is just another example of what happens when small local radio stations get gobbled up by national players who could care less about playing nice. They are in it to build the station quickly and resell it. Is it their fault that we did not have our equipment designed properly to avoid these types of issues? No! It became a learning experience for us and we are much more careful in our infrastructure design depending on the possibilities of tenants like this collocating on the same structure as us. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward J. Hatfield III Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Yikes-my bad! Apparently the S/N number under discussion is being calculated, not actually measured, and occurs after a CAT5 run down an FM broadcast tower? Well, no wonder! Apologies for previous (well intentioned but poorly predicated) advice . Ted -Original Message- From: Wireless Internet Service Providers Assoc. [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
Does your lease agreement not have a first in clause? Something to make the radio station liable for taking care of the interference they create? --- Original Message --- >From: Rick Harnish[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/31/2007 10:26:54 AM To : wireless@wispa.org Cc : Subject : RE: [WISPA] fm towers We had a 7000 watt radio station move onto one of our colo cell tower sites. They turned up the transmitter and we lost Ethernet connectivity to our radios immediately. We replaced the outdoor non-shielded Ethernet cable with shielded and even ran it in conduit (metal). That still didn't fix the problems. We then replaced the shielded with fiber and a better RF resistant box and have seen the connectivity issues disappear. The FM signal still seems to wear on the longevity of our wireless cards over time. I think it tends to deafen the receive sensitivity. This is just another example of what happens when small local radio stations get gobbled up by national players who could care less about playing nice. They are in it to build the station quickly and resell it. Is it their fault that we did not have our equipment designed properly to avoid these types of issues? No! It became a learning experience for us and we are much more careful in our infrastructure design depending on the possibilities of tenants like this collocating on the same structure as us. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward J. Hatfield III Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Yikes-my bad! Apparently the S/N number under discussion is being calculated, not actually measured, and occurs after a CAT5 run down an FM broadcast tower? Well, no wonder! Apologies for previous (well intentioned but poorly predicated) advice . Ted -Original Message- From: Wireless Internet Service Providers Assoc. [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
We had a 7000 watt radio station move onto one of our colo cell tower sites. They turned up the transmitter and we lost Ethernet connectivity to our radios immediately. We replaced the outdoor non-shielded Ethernet cable with shielded and even ran it in conduit (metal). That still didn't fix the problems. We then replaced the shielded with fiber and a better RF resistant box and have seen the connectivity issues disappear. The FM signal still seems to wear on the longevity of our wireless cards over time. I think it tends to deafen the receive sensitivity. This is just another example of what happens when small local radio stations get gobbled up by national players who could care less about playing nice. They are in it to build the station quickly and resell it. Is it their fault that we did not have our equipment designed properly to avoid these types of issues? No! It became a learning experience for us and we are much more careful in our infrastructure design depending on the possibilities of tenants like this collocating on the same structure as us. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward J. Hatfield III Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers Yikes-my bad! Apparently the S/N number under discussion is being calculated, not actually measured, and occurs after a CAT5 run down an FM broadcast tower? Well, no wonder! Apologies for previous (well intentioned but poorly predicated) advice . Ted -Original Message- From: Wireless Internet Service Providers Assoc. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
Yikes-my bad! Apparently the S/N number under discussion is being calculated, not actually measured, and occurs after a CAT5 run down an FM broadcast tower? Well, no wonder! Apologies for previous (well intentioned but poorly predicated) advice . Ted -Original Message- From: Wireless Internet Service Providers Assoc. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] fm towers You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
How many watts is the FM station emitting? I have seen FM towers where wireless in any frequency just won't work due to the mass amount of wattage being radiated. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] fm towers mikrotik 5.8 ptp links off an FM tower We have a ptp link with a signal to noise of 66 to 103 Our access points will only link for a few seconds and quit we have the exact same links on other towers that work great and the one to this fm tower will not work any suggestions? This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
You could try replacing your CAT5 with shielded CAT5 cable and shielded RJ-45 connectors. Just my two cents worth Ty Carter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenco Wireless Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 1:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] fm towers FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H On 3/30/07, Edward J. Hatfield III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Nearly 40 dB of variations in the link S/N ratio? Holy cat crap, Batman! > > > > How accurate is the test equipment yielding that measurement? SNR > variations > of 40 dB means four orders of magnitude in signal levels relative to the > noise floor, a 10,000:1 change in the power ratio. No wonder the bloody > link > isn't stable! > > > > Frankly I'm not inclined to trust the accuracy of those measurements > over-much; it's been my experience that few people own or even have access > to the kind of test equipment (like Network Vector Analyzers and Power > Meters) required to properly trouble shoot microwave systems. But there > obviously IS a problem. > > > > OK, now for the (hopefully) helpful part: My hunch is that the FM > broadcast > signal, being in relatively close proximity to your antenna mount, is > generating harmonics or other spurious energy of sufficient power to > overload the front end of your radio. (Sharp Q, ultra-deep microwave > filters > are expensive and I'd be very surprised if your radio was so equipped). > > > > So, the question before you is: How important is this site to your overall > network? Is it worth the expense of having a properly trained and equipped > microwave field engineer find and characterize the problem, and suggest > some > options for corrective measures? > > > > Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but sometimes there aren't any easy > answers > to difficult problems . > > > > Hope this helps, Ted > > > > Edward J. Hatfield III, President > > E.J. Hatfield & Company > > 5142 Edgemoor Drive > > Norcross, GA 30071-4342 USA > > 1-770-209-9236 - Office > > 1-770-209-9238 - Fax > > 1-770-560-0736 - Sprint > > 1-678-457-8411 - Cingular > > 154*273*18 - NexTel > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:01 PM > To: wireless@wispa.org > Subject: [WISPA] fm towers > > > > mikrotik 5.8 ptp links off an FM tower. We have a ptp link with a signal > to > noise of 66 to 103. Our access points will only link for a few seconds and > quit. we have the exact same links on other towers that work great and the > one to this fm tower will not work. any suggestions? > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] fm towers
FM kills Ethernet. Inductors - Period. Set to 10 Mbps until then. Brad H On 3/30/07, Edward J. Hatfield III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Nearly 40 dB of variations in the link S/N ratio? Holy cat crap, Batman! How accurate is the test equipment yielding that measurement? SNR variations of 40 dB means four orders of magnitude in signal levels relative to the noise floor, a 10,000:1 change in the power ratio. No wonder the bloody link isn't stable! Frankly I'm not inclined to trust the accuracy of those measurements over-much; it's been my experience that few people own or even have access to the kind of test equipment (like Network Vector Analyzers and Power Meters) required to properly trouble shoot microwave systems. But there obviously IS a problem. OK, now for the (hopefully) helpful part: My hunch is that the FM broadcast signal, being in relatively close proximity to your antenna mount, is generating harmonics or other spurious energy of sufficient power to overload the front end of your radio. (Sharp Q, ultra-deep microwave filters are expensive and I'd be very surprised if your radio was so equipped). So, the question before you is: How important is this site to your overall network? Is it worth the expense of having a properly trained and equipped microwave field engineer find and characterize the problem, and suggest some options for corrective measures? Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but sometimes there aren't any easy answers to difficult problems . Hope this helps, Ted Edward J. Hatfield III, President E.J. Hatfield & Company 5142 Edgemoor Drive Norcross, GA 30071-4342 USA 1-770-209-9236 - Office 1-770-209-9238 - Fax 1-770-560-0736 - Sprint 1-678-457-8411 - Cingular 154*273*18 - NexTel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] fm towers mikrotik 5.8 ptp links off an FM tower. We have a ptp link with a signal to noise of 66 to 103. Our access points will only link for a few seconds and quit. we have the exact same links on other towers that work great and the one to this fm tower will not work. any suggestions? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] fm towers
Nearly 40 dB of variations in the link S/N ratio? Holy cat crap, Batman! How accurate is the test equipment yielding that measurement? SNR variations of 40 dB means four orders of magnitude in signal levels relative to the noise floor, a 10,000:1 change in the power ratio. No wonder the bloody link isn't stable! Frankly I'm not inclined to trust the accuracy of those measurements over-much; it's been my experience that few people own or even have access to the kind of test equipment (like Network Vector Analyzers and Power Meters) required to properly trouble shoot microwave systems. But there obviously IS a problem. OK, now for the (hopefully) helpful part: My hunch is that the FM broadcast signal, being in relatively close proximity to your antenna mount, is generating harmonics or other spurious energy of sufficient power to overload the front end of your radio. (Sharp Q, ultra-deep microwave filters are expensive and I'd be very surprised if your radio was so equipped). So, the question before you is: How important is this site to your overall network? Is it worth the expense of having a properly trained and equipped microwave field engineer find and characterize the problem, and suggest some options for corrective measures? Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but sometimes there aren't any easy answers to difficult problems . Hope this helps, Ted Edward J. Hatfield III, President E.J. Hatfield & Company 5142 Edgemoor Drive Norcross, GA 30071-4342 USA 1-770-209-9236 - Office 1-770-209-9238 - Fax 1-770-560-0736 - Sprint 1-678-457-8411 - Cingular 154*273*18 - NexTel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] fm towers mikrotik 5.8 ptp links off an FM tower. We have a ptp link with a signal to noise of 66 to 103. Our access points will only link for a few seconds and quit. we have the exact same links on other towers that work great and the one to this fm tower will not work. any suggestions? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] fm towers
mikrotik 5.8 ptp links off an FM tower We have a ptp link with a signal to noise of 66 to 103 Our access points will only link for a few seconds and quit we have the exact same links on other towers that work great and the one to this fm tower will not work any suggestions? This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
