Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Jake Snyder 
You can ban the use of the devices, but you can’t break the law to enforce your 
policy.  Enforcement must be done in accordance of the law.

Your policy could state that students caught with a sandwich will be tasered, 
but you’ll likely need a good lawyer if you attempt to enforce possession of a 
Reuben that way.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Enfield, Chuck  wrote:
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with you, Hunter - so you're probably wrong. :-)
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:18 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
> 
> Chuck, that all makes sense, but I don't think the earlier quote would
> bother the FCC. I'm talking about this one that David provided:
> 
> "Personal wireless access points, network switches, and routers are
> not permitted on campus as they can interfere with the functioning of
> the campus network."
> 
> This seems pretty enforceable, and it clearly doesn't have to do with
> unlicensed spectrum, because network switches and wired routers are
> prohibited by this quote, even though they don't have anything to do
> with Wi-Fi.
> 
> It seems Draconian to me, but it also seems safe to enforce, for
> Universities that have passed such a policy. But as some have
> mentioned, this is the WIRELESS-LAN list, rather than the LAWYER list,
> so of course I'm just speculating.
> 
> --
> Hunter Fuller
> Router Jockey
> VBH Annex B-5
> +1 256 824 5331
> 
> Office of Information Technology
> The University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Network Engineering
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:53 PM Enfield, Chuck  wrote:
>> 
>> The difference between Mi-Fi and sandwiches is that there's no Federal 
>> Sandwich Commission claiming exclusive authority to regulate sandwiches.  
>> Our institutions are free to pass policies consistent with the law, but it's 
>> clear from this thread that we don’t know precisely what the law allows in 
>> this case.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Here's the relevant excerpt from Penn State’s policy manual:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The University also reserves the right to control and/or manage use of the 
>> frequency spectrum within the boundaries of all University locations. 
>> Individuals of the University are required to report transmitting devices 
>> and their characteristics to University officials, if so requested. The 
>> University reserves the right to require those units or individuals found to 
>> have such devices that interfere or are suspected to interfere with 
>> operation of centrally managed University systems, to discontinue use of 
>> such devices, and, if necessary, to remove them from University property.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have concerns about this policy that would keep me from trying to enforce 
>> it:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The University must manage the spectrum assigned to it, but I'm pretty sure 
>> the FCC controls the spectrum and that the unlicensed spectrum isn’t ours to 
>> manage.
>> Who are these university officials that can request reporting?  I have no 
>> reason to think I or my staff are among them, but perhaps we are.
>> I suspect the University can ban categories of devices from campus as it 
>> sees fit, including RF transmitters.  If instead of making this about 
>> spectrum we just banned RF transmitters of any kind, or even specific kinds, 
>> we could probably get away with it.  But we’re on much shakier ground if we 
>> allow such devices and choose to selectively prohibit them based on what we 
>> deem to be adverse effects on the spectrum associated with their legal use.  
>> That’s a backhanded way of controlling the unlicensed spectrum and I don’t 
>> think the FCC will like it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Nevertheless, if concern #2 was addressed I’d be willing to attempt 
>> enforcement.  Our Office of General Counsel is responsible for making sure 
>> our policies are legal – not me.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck Enfield
>> 
>> Manager, Wireless & Cellular
>> 
>> Penn State IT
>> 
>> 119L USB2, UP, PA 16802
>> 
>> Office: 814.863.8715
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>>  On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:22 PM
>> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LA

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Enfield, Chuck 
I'm inclined to agree with you, Hunter - so you're probably wrong. :-)

-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 2:18 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum

Chuck, that all makes sense, but I don't think the earlier quote would
bother the FCC. I'm talking about this one that David provided:

"Personal wireless access points, network switches, and routers are
not permitted on campus as they can interfere with the functioning of
the campus network."

This seems pretty enforceable, and it clearly doesn't have to do with
unlicensed spectrum, because network switches and wired routers are
prohibited by this quote, even though they don't have anything to do
with Wi-Fi.

It seems Draconian to me, but it also seems safe to enforce, for
Universities that have passed such a policy. But as some have
mentioned, this is the WIRELESS-LAN list, rather than the LAWYER list,
so of course I'm just speculating.

--
Hunter Fuller
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:53 PM Enfield, Chuck  wrote:
>
> The difference between Mi-Fi and sandwiches is that there's no Federal 
> Sandwich Commission claiming exclusive authority to regulate sandwiches.  Our 
> institutions are free to pass policies consistent with the law, but it's 
> clear from this thread that we don’t know precisely what the law allows in 
> this case.
>
>
>
> Here's the relevant excerpt from Penn State’s policy manual:
>
>
>
> The University also reserves the right to control and/or manage use of the 
> frequency spectrum within the boundaries of all University locations. 
> Individuals of the University are required to report transmitting devices and 
> their characteristics to University officials, if so requested. The 
> University reserves the right to require those units or individuals found to 
> have such devices that interfere or are suspected to interfere with operation 
> of centrally managed University systems, to discontinue use of such devices, 
> and, if necessary, to remove them from University property.
>
>
>
> I have concerns about this policy that would keep me from trying to enforce 
> it:
>
>
>
> The University must manage the spectrum assigned to it, but I'm pretty sure 
> the FCC controls the spectrum and that the unlicensed spectrum isn’t ours to 
> manage.
> Who are these university officials that can request reporting?  I have no 
> reason to think I or my staff are among them, but perhaps we are.
> I suspect the University can ban categories of devices from campus as it sees 
> fit, including RF transmitters.  If instead of making this about spectrum we 
> just banned RF transmitters of any kind, or even specific kinds, we could 
> probably get away with it.  But we’re on much shakier ground if we allow such 
> devices and choose to selectively prohibit them based on what we deem to be 
> adverse effects on the spectrum associated with their legal use.  That’s a 
> backhanded way of controlling the unlicensed spectrum and I don’t think the 
> FCC will like it.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless, if concern #2 was addressed I’d be willing to attempt 
> enforcement.  Our Office of General Counsel is responsible for making sure 
> our policies are legal – not me.
>
>
>
> Chuck Enfield
>
> Manager, Wireless & Cellular
>
> Penn State IT
>
> 119L USB2, UP, PA 16802
>
> Office: 814.863.8715
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:22 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>
>
>
> I'm not sure everyone is really speaking the same language here.
>
>
>
> If my University passed a policy that said students can't have sandwiches on 
> campus, that would be enforceable and they could even be subject to 
> disciplinary committee if they brought a sandwich to campus.
>
>
>
> If you replace a sandwich with a Mi-Fi device, I'm not sure how that's any 
> different.
>
>
>
> That being said, we do not have such a policy - just one forbidding them from 
> connecting their routers and such to our network. That's fine for us, and we 
> just try to educate people - 90% of the time it works every time.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Hunter Fuller
>
> Router Jockey
>
> VBH Annex B-5
>
> +1 256 824 5331
>
>
>
> Offi

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Hunter Fuller 
Chuck, that all makes sense, but I don't think the earlier quote would
bother the FCC. I'm talking about this one that David provided:

"Personal wireless access points, network switches, and routers are
not permitted on campus as they can interfere with the functioning of
the campus network."

This seems pretty enforceable, and it clearly doesn't have to do with
unlicensed spectrum, because network switches and wired routers are
prohibited by this quote, even though they don't have anything to do
with Wi-Fi.

It seems Draconian to me, but it also seems safe to enforce, for
Universities that have passed such a policy. But as some have
mentioned, this is the WIRELESS-LAN list, rather than the LAWYER list,
so of course I'm just speculating.

--
Hunter Fuller
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:53 PM Enfield, Chuck  wrote:
>
> The difference between Mi-Fi and sandwiches is that there's no Federal 
> Sandwich Commission claiming exclusive authority to regulate sandwiches.  Our 
> institutions are free to pass policies consistent with the law, but it's 
> clear from this thread that we don’t know precisely what the law allows in 
> this case.
>
>
>
> Here's the relevant excerpt from Penn State’s policy manual:
>
>
>
> The University also reserves the right to control and/or manage use of the 
> frequency spectrum within the boundaries of all University locations. 
> Individuals of the University are required to report transmitting devices and 
> their characteristics to University officials, if so requested. The 
> University reserves the right to require those units or individuals found to 
> have such devices that interfere or are suspected to interfere with operation 
> of centrally managed University systems, to discontinue use of such devices, 
> and, if necessary, to remove them from University property.
>
>
>
> I have concerns about this policy that would keep me from trying to enforce 
> it:
>
>
>
> The University must manage the spectrum assigned to it, but I'm pretty sure 
> the FCC controls the spectrum and that the unlicensed spectrum isn’t ours to 
> manage.
> Who are these university officials that can request reporting?  I have no 
> reason to think I or my staff are among them, but perhaps we are.
> I suspect the University can ban categories of devices from campus as it sees 
> fit, including RF transmitters.  If instead of making this about spectrum we 
> just banned RF transmitters of any kind, or even specific kinds, we could 
> probably get away with it.  But we’re on much shakier ground if we allow such 
> devices and choose to selectively prohibit them based on what we deem to be 
> adverse effects on the spectrum associated with their legal use.  That’s a 
> backhanded way of controlling the unlicensed spectrum and I don’t think the 
> FCC will like it.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless, if concern #2 was addressed I’d be willing to attempt 
> enforcement.  Our Office of General Counsel is responsible for making sure 
> our policies are legal – not me.
>
>
>
> Chuck Enfield
>
> Manager, Wireless & Cellular
>
> Penn State IT
>
> 119L USB2, UP, PA 16802
>
> Office: 814.863.8715
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:22 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>
>
>
> I'm not sure everyone is really speaking the same language here.
>
>
>
> If my University passed a policy that said students can't have sandwiches on 
> campus, that would be enforceable and they could even be subject to 
> disciplinary committee if they brought a sandwich to campus.
>
>
>
> If you replace a sandwich with a Mi-Fi device, I'm not sure how that's any 
> different.
>
>
>
> That being said, we do not have such a policy - just one forbidding them from 
> connecting their routers and such to our network. That's fine for us, and we 
> just try to educate people - 90% of the time it works every time.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Hunter Fuller
>
> Router Jockey
>
> VBH Annex B-5
>
> +1 256 824 5331
>
>
>
> Office of Information Technology
>
> The University of Alabama in Huntsville
>
> Network Engineering
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Jake Snyder  wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Unfortunately, aside from talking to the person there isn’t much you can 
> > do.  The person in question isn’t “jamming,” they are using spectrum

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Lee H Badman 
Very well-articulated, Chuck. After the Marriot and related decisions, 
then-commissioner Ajit Pai wrote some really good dissenting views… like “we 
can’t fine them because our own regulations are so ambiguous” kind of stuff. 
When he became the head of the FCC, I was really hoping he’d revisit the mess 
and clear it up. That hasn’t happened, sadly.

FWIW, here’s what I was thinking back then in an open letter to the FCC 
https://wirednot.wordpress.com/2015/08/19/an-open-letter-to-the-fcc/ and then a 
blog that covered life as a network admin trying to deal with the problem 
devices 
https://wirednot.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/three-inconvenient-truths-and-some-conspiracy-theory-about-the-fccs-mi-fi-enforcements/

It’s still a crazy thorny topic, in my mind.

Lee Badman | Network Architect (CWNE#200)
Information Technology Services
(NDD Group)
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   e lhbad...@syr.edu<mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu> w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Enfield, Chuck
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 1:53 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum


The difference between Mi-Fi and sandwiches is that there's no Federal Sandwich 
Commission claiming exclusive authority to regulate sandwiches.  Our 
institutions are free to pass policies consistent with the law, but it's clear 
from this thread that we don’t know precisely what the law allows in this case.



Here's the relevant excerpt from Penn State’s policy manual:



The University also reserves the right to control and/or manage use of the 
frequency spectrum within the boundaries of all University locations. 
Individuals of the University are required to report transmitting devices and 
their characteristics to University officials, if so requested. The University 
reserves the right to require those units or individuals found to have such 
devices that interfere or are suspected to interfere with operation of 
centrally managed University systems, to discontinue use of such devices, and, 
if necessary, to remove them from University property.



I have concerns about this policy that would keep me from trying to enforce it:



  1.  The University must manage the spectrum assigned to it, but I'm pretty 
sure the FCC controls the spectrum and that the unlicensed spectrum isn’t ours 
to manage.
  2.  Who are these university officials that can request reporting?  I have no 
reason to think I or my staff are among them, but perhaps we are.
  3.  I suspect the University can ban categories of devices from campus as it 
sees fit, including RF transmitters.  If instead of making this about spectrum 
we just banned RF transmitters of any kind, or even specific kinds, we could 
probably get away with it.  But we’re on much shakier ground if we allow such 
devices and choose to selectively prohibit them based on what we deem to be 
adverse effects on the spectrum associated with their legal use.  That’s a 
backhanded way of controlling the unlicensed spectrum and I don’t think the FCC 
will like it.



Nevertheless, if concern #2 was addressed I’d be willing to attempt 
enforcement.  Our Office of General Counsel is responsible for making sure our 
policies are legal – not me.

Chuck Enfield
Manager, Wireless & Cellular
Penn State IT
119L USB2, UP, PA 16802
Office: 814.863.8715


-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:22 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum



I'm not sure everyone is really speaking the same language here.



If my University passed a policy that said students can't have sandwiches on 
campus, that would be enforceable and they could even be subject to 
disciplinary committee if they brought a sandwich to campus.



If you replace a sandwich with a Mi-Fi device, I'm not sure how that's any 
different.



That being said, we do not have such a policy - just one forbidding them from 
connecting their routers and such to our network. That's fine for us, and we 
just try to educate people - 90% of the time it works every time.



--

Hunter Fuller

Router Jockey

VBH Annex B-5

+1 256 824 5331



Office of Information Technology

The University of Alabama in Huntsville

Network Engineering



On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Jake Snyder 
mailto:jsnyde...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>

> Unfortunately, aside from talking to the person there isn’t much you can do.  
> The person in question isn’t “jamming,” they are using spectrum and 
> completely entitled to do so.

>

> Simplistically, you can preve

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Enfield, Chuck 
The difference between Mi-Fi and sandwiches is that there's no Federal Sandwich 
Commission claiming exclusive authority to regulate sandwiches.  Our 
institutions are free to pass policies consistent with the law, but it's clear 
from this thread that we don’t know precisely what the law allows in this case.



Here's the relevant excerpt from Penn State’s policy manual:



The University also reserves the right to control and/or manage use of the 
frequency spectrum within the boundaries of all University locations. 
Individuals of the University are required to report transmitting devices and 
their characteristics to University officials, if so requested. The University 
reserves the right to require those units or individuals found to have such 
devices that interfere or are suspected to interfere with operation of 
centrally managed University systems, to discontinue use of such devices, and, 
if necessary, to remove them from University property.



I have concerns about this policy that would keep me from trying to enforce it:



  1.  The University must manage the spectrum assigned to it, but I'm pretty 
sure the FCC controls the spectrum and that the unlicensed spectrum isn’t ours 
to manage.
  2.  Who are these university officials that can request reporting?  I have no 
reason to think I or my staff are among them, but perhaps we are.
  3.  I suspect the University can ban categories of devices from campus as it 
sees fit, including RF transmitters.  If instead of making this about spectrum 
we just banned RF transmitters of any kind, or even specific kinds, we could 
probably get away with it.  But we’re on much shakier ground if we allow such 
devices and choose to selectively prohibit them based on what we deem to be 
adverse effects on the spectrum associated with their legal use.  That’s a 
backhanded way of controlling the unlicensed spectrum and I don’t think the FCC 
will like it.



Nevertheless, if concern #2 was addressed I’d be willing to attempt 
enforcement.  Our Office of General Counsel is responsible for making sure our 
policies are legal – not me.

Chuck Enfield
Manager, Wireless & Cellular
Penn State IT
119L USB2, UP, PA 16802
Office: 814.863.8715


-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 12:22 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum



I'm not sure everyone is really speaking the same language here.



If my University passed a policy that said students can't have sandwiches on 
campus, that would be enforceable and they could even be subject to 
disciplinary committee if they brought a sandwich to campus.



If you replace a sandwich with a Mi-Fi device, I'm not sure how that's any 
different.



That being said, we do not have such a policy - just one forbidding them from 
connecting their routers and such to our network. That's fine for us, and we 
just try to educate people - 90% of the time it works every time.



--

Hunter Fuller

Router Jockey

VBH Annex B-5

+1 256 824 5331



Office of Information Technology

The University of Alabama in Huntsville

Network Engineering



On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Jake Snyder 
mailto:jsnyde...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>

> Unfortunately, aside from talking to the person there isn’t much you can do.  
> The person in question isn’t “jamming,” they are using spectrum and 
> completely entitled to do so.

>

> Simplistically, you can prevent devices the university owns from connecting 
> to it. Beyond that, you venture into the grey area.

>

> Best course is to go talk to the person, educate them, and hope they are 
> reasonable. realistically, you cause as much impact to them as they do to you.

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:22 AM, Dom Colangelo 
> mailto:dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com>> 
> wrote:

>

> 

>

> I came across this 2015 article on the Marriot penalty and subsequent FCC 
> public notice – there’s a lot of grey area as it relates with higher 
> education, and it seems many are forming their own interpretations.

>

>

>

> --

> ---

>

> 

> Dom Colangelo

>

> Systems Engineer

>

> Omada Technologies

>

> Cell: (617)-446-3945

>

> dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com<mailto:dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com>

>

>

>

>

>

> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv

> mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
>  On Behalf Of Michael Holden

> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 10:07 AM

> To: 
> WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>

> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Hunter Fuller 
I'm not sure everyone is really speaking the same language here.

If my University passed a policy that said students can't have
sandwiches on campus, that would be enforceable and they could even be
subject to disciplinary committee if they brought a sandwich to
campus.

If you replace a sandwich with a Mi-Fi device, I'm not sure how that's
any different.

That being said, we do not have such a policy - just one forbidding
them from connecting their routers and such to our network. That's
fine for us, and we just try to educate people - 90% of the time it
works every time.

--
Hunter Fuller
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Jake Snyder  wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, aside from talking to the person there isn’t much you can do.  
> The person in question isn’t “jamming,” they are using spectrum and 
> completely entitled to do so.
>
> Simplistically, you can prevent devices the university owns from connecting 
> to it. Beyond that, you venture into the grey area.
>
> Best course is to go talk to the person, educate them, and hope they are 
> reasonable. realistically, you cause as much impact to them as they do to you.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:22 AM, Dom Colangelo  
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I came across this 2015 article on the Marriot penalty and subsequent FCC 
> public notice – there’s a lot of grey area as it relates with higher 
> education, and it seems many are forming their own interpretations.
>
>
>
> -
>
> 
> Dom Colangelo
>
> Systems Engineer
>
> Omada Technologies
>
> Cell: (617)-446-3945
>
> dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com
>
>
>
>
>
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Michael Holden
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 10:07 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>
>
>
> Aruba gives the following warning when doing containment / deauth
>
>
>
> The Federal Communications Commission ("FCC") and some third parties have 
> alleged that, under certain circumstances, use of containment functionality 
> violates 47 U.S.C. Section 333 and/or other FCC rules, regulations or 
> policies. Before using any containment functionality, you should determine 
> whether your intended use is allowed under the applicable rules, regulations 
> and policies. Aruba shall not be liable for any claims, sanctions, or other 
> direct, indirect, special, consequential or incidental damages related to 
> your use of containment functionality.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Julian Y Koh
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 9:50 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 08:38, Coehoorn, Joel  wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is 
> Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to 
> prohibit hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because of 
> it.
>
>
>
> The details are a little hazy with the passage of time, but IIRC the Marriott 
> case was special because they were using the active rogue disassociation 
> features of their wireless network to intentionally knock people off of any 
> SSIDs other than the ones that they were operating.  So that goes beyond 
> simply radiating on a channel.
>
>
>
> Corrections/clarifications welcome as always! :)
>
>
> --
>
> Julian Y. Koh
>
> Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
>
> Northwestern Information Technology
>
>
>
> 2020 Ridge Avenue #331
>
> Evanston, IL 60208
>
> +1-847-467-5780
>
> Northwestern IT Web Site: <http://www.it.northwestern.edu/>
>
> PGP Public Key: <https://bt.ittns.northwestern.edu/julian/pgppubkey.html>
>
>
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
> list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
> paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional 
> participation and subscription information can be found at 
> https://www.educause.edu/community
>
> **
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> list. If you want to reply on

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Jake Snyder 
Unfortunately, aside from talking to the person there isn’t much you can do.  
The person in question isn’t “jamming,” they are using spectrum and completely 
entitled to do so.

Simplistically, you can prevent devices the university owns from connecting to 
it. Beyond that, you venture into the grey area.

Best course is to go talk to the person, educate them, and hope they are 
reasonable. realistically, you cause as much impact to them as they do to you.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 29, 2020, at 8:22 AM, Dom Colangelo  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I came across this 2015 article on the Marriot penalty and subsequent FCC 
> public notice – there’s a lot of grey area as it relates with higher 
> education, and it seems many are forming their own interpretations.
>  
> -
> 
> Dom Colangelo
> Systems Engineer
> Omada Technologies
> Cell: (617)-446-3945
> dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com
>  
>  
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Michael Holden
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 10:07 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>  
> Aruba gives the following warning when doing containment / deauth
>  
> The Federal Communications Commission ("FCC") and some third parties have 
> alleged that, under certain circumstances, use of containment functionality 
> violates 47 U.S.C. Section 333 and/or other FCC rules, regulations or 
> policies. Before using any containment functionality, you should determine 
> whether your intended use is allowed under the applicable rules, regulations 
> and policies. Aruba shall not be liable for any claims, sanctions, or other 
> direct, indirect, special, consequential or incidental damages related to 
> your use of containment functionality.
>  
>  
>  
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
>  On Behalf Of Julian Y Koh
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 9:50 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
> spectrum
>  
> On Jan 29, 2020, at 08:38, Coehoorn, Joel  wrote:
>  
> I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is 
> Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to 
> prohibit hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because of 
> it.
>  
> The details are a little hazy with the passage of time, but IIRC the Marriott 
> case was special because they were using the active rogue disassociation 
> features of their wireless network to intentionally knock people off of any 
> SSIDs other than the ones that they were operating.  So that goes beyond 
> simply radiating on a channel.
>  
> Corrections/clarifications welcome as always! :)
> 
> -- 
> Julian Y. Koh
> Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
> Northwestern Information Technology
>  
> 2020 Ridge Avenue #331
> Evanston, IL 60208
> +1-847-467-5780
> Northwestern IT Web Site: <http://www.it.northwestern.edu/>
> PGP Public Key: <https://bt.ittns.northwestern.edu/julian/pgppubkey.html>
>  
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
> list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
> paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional 
> participation and subscription information can be found at 
> https://www.educause.edu/community
> 
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
> list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
> paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional 
> participation and subscription information can be found at 
> https://www.educause.edu/community
> 
> **
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> list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
> paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional 
> participation and subscription information can be found at 
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Dom Colangelo 
I came across this 2015 
article<https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/02/06/do-fccs-rules-blocking-mobile-hot-spots-apply-higher-education>
 on the Marriot penalty and subsequent FCC public 
notice<https://www.fcc.gov/document/warning-wi-fi-blocking-prohibited> – 
there’s a lot of grey area as it relates with higher education, and it seems 
many are forming their own interpretations.

-
[omada_logo_final_print_color-01]Dom Colangelo
Systems Engineer
Omada Technologies
Cell: (617)-446-3945
dcolang...@omadatechnologies.com<mailto:cfar...@omadatechnologies.com>


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Michael Holden
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 10:07 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum

Aruba gives the following warning when doing containment / deauth

The Federal Communications Commission ("FCC") and some third parties have 
alleged that, under certain circumstances, use of containment functionality 
violates 47 U.S.C. Section 333 and/or other FCC rules, regulations or policies. 
Before using any containment functionality, you should determine whether your 
intended use is allowed under the applicable rules, regulations and policies. 
Aruba shall not be liable for any claims, sanctions, or other direct, indirect, 
special, consequential or incidental damages related to your use of containment 
functionality.



From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Julian Y Koh
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 9:50 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum

On Jan 29, 2020, at 08:38, Coehoorn, Joel 
mailto:jcoeho...@york.edu>> wrote:

I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is 
Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to prohibit 
hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because of it.

The details are a little hazy with the passage of time, but IIRC the Marriott 
case was special because they were using the active rogue disassociation 
features of their wireless network to intentionally knock people off of any 
SSIDs other than the ones that they were operating.  So that goes beyond simply 
radiating on a channel.

Corrections/clarifications welcome as always! :)

--
Julian Y. Koh
Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
Northwestern Information Technology

2020 Ridge Avenue #331
Evanston, IL 60208
+1-847-467-5780
Northwestern IT Web Site: 
<http://www.it.northwestern.edu/<http://www.it.northwestern.edu/>>
PGP Public Key: 
<https://bt.ittns.northwestern.edu/julian/pgppubkey.html<https://bt.ittns.northwestern.edu/julian/pgppubkey.html>>


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Michael Holden 
Aruba gives the following warning when doing containment / deauth

The Federal Communications Commission ("FCC") and some third parties have 
alleged that, under certain circumstances, use of containment functionality 
violates 47 U.S.C. Section 333 and/or other FCC rules, regulations or policies. 
Before using any containment functionality, you should determine whether your 
intended use is allowed under the applicable rules, regulations and policies. 
Aruba shall not be liable for any claims, sanctions, or other direct, indirect, 
special, consequential or incidental damages related to your use of containment 
functionality.



From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Julian Y Koh
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 9:50 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum

On Jan 29, 2020, at 08:38, Coehoorn, Joel 
mailto:jcoeho...@york.edu>> wrote:

I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is 
Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to prohibit 
hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because of it.

The details are a little hazy with the passage of time, but IIRC the Marriott 
case was special because they were using the active rogue disassociation 
features of their wireless network to intentionally knock people off of any 
SSIDs other than the ones that they were operating.  So that goes beyond simply 
radiating on a channel.

Corrections/clarifications welcome as always! :)

--
Julian Y. Koh
Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
Northwestern Information Technology

2020 Ridge Avenue #331
Evanston, IL 60208
+1-847-467-5780
Northwestern IT Web Site: <http://www.it.northwestern.edu/>
PGP Public Key: <https://bt.ittns.northwestern.edu/julian/pgppubkey.html>


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at 
https://www.educause.edu/community<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.educause.edu%2fcommunity=E,1,UspSO5Jh6e0U54B39uzqG0pIK8AFbTeoi9gdWIR-PY-61WWT8pUrweZXTSOlQn0gCtUpxhtkjbB-DlXSpjUxxc7SWZS0tBHTEVg6BfeWLe6GJmCAg8ac6K7B5g,,=1>

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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Julian Y Koh 
On Jan 29, 2020, at 08:38, Coehoorn, Joel 
mailto:jcoeho...@york.edu>> wrote:

I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is 
Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to prohibit 
hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because of it.

The details are a little hazy with the passage of time, but IIRC the Marriott 
case was special because they were using the active rogue disassociation 
features of their wireless network to intentionally knock people off of any 
SSIDs other than the ones that they were operating.  So that goes beyond simply 
radiating on a channel.

Corrections/clarifications welcome as always! :)

--
Julian Y. Koh
Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
Northwestern Information Technology

2020 Ridge Avenue #331
Evanston, IL 60208
+1-847-467-5780
Northwestern IT Web Site: 
PGP Public Key: 


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Coehoorn, Joel 
>  "legal to prohibit the use of interfering devices ... by campus
community members who are contractually bound to campus policy."

I don't know about that. The enforcement example that stands out to me is
Marriott was not allowed to use the fine print when you get a room to
prohibit hot spots, interfering or not, and they paid a hefty fine because
of it.

Joel Coehoorn
Director of Information Technology
402.363.5603
*jcoeho...@york.edu *

*Please contact helpd...@york.edu  for technical
assistance.*


The mission of York College is to transform lives through
Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service to
God, family, and society


On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:33 AM Hall, Rand  wrote:

> I am not a lawyer nor a law enforcement officer so I encourage people to
> consult one for situations like this.
>
> That said, experience suggests to me that it would indeed be legal to
> prohibit the use of interfering devices on campus (network connected or
> not) by campus community members who are contractually bound to campus
> policy. Similar examples on most campuses would include tobacco and
> marijuana use and possessing weapons of various sorts.
>
> Rand
>
> Rand P. Hall
> Director, Network Services askIT!
> Merrimack College
> 978-837-3532
> rand.h...@merrimack.edu
>
> If I had an hour to save the world, I would spend 55 minutes defining the
> problem and five minutes finding solutions. – Einstein
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 7:08 PM Paul B. Henson  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 06:02:01PM +, David Pifer wrote:
>> > We have a standard as follows “Personal wireless access points,
>> > network switches, and routers are not permitted on campus as they can
>> > interfere with the functioning of the campus network.”
>>
>> Hmm... By this do you mean "are not permitted to be connected to the
>> campus network"? Cause if somebody's got a wifi router connected to a
>> cell phone data network you can't legally tell them they can't use it...
>> Whether it's on the same channel as your wifi or not.
>>
>> --
>> Paul B. Henson  |  (909) 979-6361  |  http://www.cpp.edu/~henson/
>> Operating Systems and Network Analyst  |  hen...@cpp.edu
>> California State Polytechnic University  |  Pomona CA 91768
>>
>> **
>> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire
>> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
>> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
>> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
>> https://www.educause.edu/community
>>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
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>

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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-29 Thread Hall, Rand 
I am not a lawyer nor a law enforcement officer so I encourage people to
consult one for situations like this.

That said, experience suggests to me that it would indeed be legal to
prohibit the use of interfering devices on campus (network connected or
not) by campus community members who are contractually bound to campus
policy. Similar examples on most campuses would include tobacco and
marijuana use and possessing weapons of various sorts.

Rand

Rand P. Hall
Director, Network Services askIT!
Merrimack College
978-837-3532
rand.h...@merrimack.edu

If I had an hour to save the world, I would spend 55 minutes defining the
problem and five minutes finding solutions. – Einstein


On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 7:08 PM Paul B. Henson  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 06:02:01PM +, David Pifer wrote:
> > We have a standard as follows “Personal wireless access points,
> > network switches, and routers are not permitted on campus as they can
> > interfere with the functioning of the campus network.”
>
> Hmm... By this do you mean "are not permitted to be connected to the
> campus network"? Cause if somebody's got a wifi router connected to a
> cell phone data network you can't legally tell them they can't use it...
> Whether it's on the same channel as your wifi or not.
>
> --
> Paul B. Henson  |  (909) 979-6361  |  http://www.cpp.edu/~henson/
> Operating Systems and Network Analyst  |  hen...@cpp.edu
> California State Polytechnic University  |  Pomona CA 91768
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
> https://www.educause.edu/community
>

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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz spectrum

2020-01-28 Thread Lee H Badman 
You can ask. And inform about how a hotspot is crushing an AP and several 
people's connectivity.

Lee Badman | Network Architect | CWNE #200
Information Technology Services
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   f 315.443.4325   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 on behalf of Paul B. Henson 

Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 6:58:33 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Ex: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] neighbors 'jamming' 2.4GHz 
spectrum

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 06:02:01PM +, David Pifer wrote:
> We have a standard as follows “Personal wireless access points,
> network switches, and routers are not permitted on campus as they can
> interfere with the functioning of the campus network.”

Hmm... By this do you mean "are not permitted to be connected to the
campus network"? Cause if somebody's got a wifi router connected to a
cell phone data network you can't legally tell them they can't use it...
Whether it's on the same channel as your wifi or not.

--
Paul B. Henson  |  (909) 979-6361  |  http://www.cpp.edu/~henson/
Operating Systems and Network Analyst  |  hen...@cpp.edu
California State Polytechnic University  |  Pomona CA 91768

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