Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
yawn...sorry almost fell asleep about a third of the way into your response. Funny, that seems to happen a lot with your posts...yawn On one hand you try to say you want to work with property owners and then on the other you resent them for taking 50% of your revenue to date! Wow, if you're giving 50% of your revenue to them and they're not taking you to Ruth's Chris every third Friday then you have to admit your doing something very wrong! lol (1) Yes, and my point was if you got a NO even 100 times in ten years you're doing something very wrong. (2) If the property owner doesn't get it, then move on. The market will drive penetration. Well, that is if you offer a desired product. (3) If it took you ten years to figure out how to work with property owners then all I can say is better late than never, right? sigh (4) It can be a fast process given the right approach. Again, my point here. (5) Ok, the truth comes out regarding your feelings towards the evil property owner. Gee all they did was squat and pop out a multi-million dollar property just so you have a place to hang your antenna. (6) Cry me a river. Most any business has its challenges. DC is no different than hundreds if not thousands of metro areas with stiff competition. So, your solution to your lack of ability to compete is to ask Big Government to step in and make it all right for you. sigh (7) Ok, progress...and without Big Government either! Congratulations. So, you seem to think the ILECs get 100% coverage (which is far from true) for free? Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Brad, First, I was being Facetious , I thought that would have been obvious. Second, Forgive the generalized steriotypic comment, as I did not mean to bundle all property managers/ owner into the same class. Many property Owners do get it, and we embrace their allegience and we work with them effectively. When I say negative things about PRoperty owners/managers, I am only referring to the percentage of clueless property mamangers that just dont get it, and that have shown to be both destructuve to themselves, their tenants, and our company's progress, because they cant open their mind to new ways of thinking. Third, I have been in this business for 10 years now, and it took a while, but I've gotten to the point, that I pretty much have it down to a system how to work with the local property managers /owners as effectively as possible. BUT it was a long hard road to get here. It wasn't so easy the first few years. Admittedly, that actually works to my advantage now because we have LOTS of good relationships with PRoperty owners, that will be very difficult for new entrants to try and replicate equally. Fourth, My strategy has always been to look from the eyes of the property owner, understand their position, and find ways to allie property owners and manager, not fight them. In otherwords, how to make them your friend. There are many ways to acommplish the goal, but again, it was NOT a fast process to change the mind set of property owners in teh early years. It took persistance, and a 5 year history of proof to lay in front of them, to compare how property managers benefited or lost dependant on whether they had embraced our wireless broadband partnerships or not. Fifth, My frustration had always stemmed from the fact that 50% of our revenue to date went to Property owner, and they generally dont do jack squat other than delay the time it takes me to install subscribers. They do control valuable roof assets, which is why they sometimes get paid by me. It makes me laugh, when I hear consumers screaming for 30-50mbps for $25 /month broadband service, when I am often forced to pay Property owners/managers way more than that. I dont really have a propblem with what Proiperty owners charge, as long as its a fair competitive market, and I can charge my end users adequate fees to recoupe my costs that I pay property managers. BUT in talking National Broadband Plan, where there is a goal to lower customer's costs and raise their speed, One of the most effective things the FCC/Feds can do is lower the cost ISP's ahve to gain access to tower assets. Sixth- It is important to understand that all markets are nto the same, DC Metro is a very ruthless market when it comes to gaining roof access. In rural America the problem may be special access costs (RBOC?), but in Metro areas, we tade that problem for property owners that all want their peice of the action. I hear stories of many WISPs that barter most of their tower colocation, with very little cost for that. Or I hear stories where people can erect their own towers for a few thousant dollars. Or bought the land to build
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Brad, Both you and Tom have some good points but I must comment that one of my favorite things about Tom is his detailed responses. Most people, including myself leave a lot out of our replies and therefore a lot of added value is not pass on. Thanks Tom! -RickG On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: yawn...sorry almost fell asleep about a third of the way into your response. Funny, that seems to happen a lot with your posts...yawn On one hand you try to say you want to work with property owners and then on the other you resent them for taking 50% of your revenue to date! Wow, if you're giving 50% of your revenue to them and they're not taking you to Ruth's Chris every third Friday then you have to admit your doing something very wrong! lol (1) Yes, and my point was if you got a NO even 100 times in ten years you're doing something very wrong. (2) If the property owner doesn't get it, then move on. The market will drive penetration. Well, that is if you offer a desired product. (3) If it took you ten years to figure out how to work with property owners then all I can say is better late than never, right? sigh (4) It can be a fast process given the right approach. Again, my point here. (5) Ok, the truth comes out regarding your feelings towards the evil property owner. Gee all they did was squat and pop out a multi-million dollar property just so you have a place to hang your antenna. (6) Cry me a river. Most any business has its challenges. DC is no different than hundreds if not thousands of metro areas with stiff competition. So, your solution to your lack of ability to compete is to ask Big Government to step in and make it all right for you. sigh (7) Ok, progress...and without Big Government either! Congratulations. So, you seem to think the ILECs get 100% coverage (which is far from true) for free? Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Brad, First, I was being Facetious , I thought that would have been obvious. Second, Forgive the generalized steriotypic comment, as I did not mean to bundle all property managers/ owner into the same class. Many property Owners do get it, and we embrace their allegience and we work with them effectively. When I say negative things about PRoperty owners/managers, I am only referring to the percentage of clueless property mamangers that just dont get it, and that have shown to be both destructuve to themselves, their tenants, and our company's progress, because they cant open their mind to new ways of thinking. Third, I have been in this business for 10 years now, and it took a while, but I've gotten to the point, that I pretty much have it down to a system how to work with the local property managers /owners as effectively as possible. BUT it was a long hard road to get here. It wasn't so easy the first few years. Admittedly, that actually works to my advantage now because we have LOTS of good relationships with PRoperty owners, that will be very difficult for new entrants to try and replicate equally. Fourth, My strategy has always been to look from the eyes of the property owner, understand their position, and find ways to allie property owners and manager, not fight them. In otherwords, how to make them your friend. There are many ways to acommplish the goal, but again, it was NOT a fast process to change the mind set of property owners in teh early years. It took persistance, and a 5 year history of proof to lay in front of them, to compare how property managers benefited or lost dependant on whether they had embraced our wireless broadband partnerships or not. Fifth, My frustration had always stemmed from the fact that 50% of our revenue to date went to Property owner, and they generally dont do jack squat other than delay the time it takes me to install subscribers. They do control valuable roof assets, which is why they sometimes get paid by me. It makes me laugh, when I hear consumers screaming for 30-50mbps for $25 /month broadband service, when I am often forced to pay Property owners/managers way more than that. I dont really have a propblem with what Proiperty owners charge, as long as its a fair competitive market, and I can charge my end users adequate fees to recoupe my costs that I pay property managers. BUT in talking National Broadband Plan, where there is a goal to lower customer's costs and raise their speed, One of the most effective things the FCC/Feds can do is lower the cost ISP's ahve to gain access to tower assets. Sixth- It is important to understand that all markets are nto the same, DC Metro is a very ruthless market when it comes to gaining roof access. In rural
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
I can 100% guarantee you that the provider still gets calls all day about how the service is too slow. We could install a OC-48 line in someone's home and they would still try to hack into it to make it go faster. J From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:54 PM To: e...@wisp-router.com; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Hi, Because you have direct experience, I'm curious if you could share what is different in their lives because they have a 100Mbps connection? What can they do on that connection that they can't do on a 1Mbps connection? How has it changed their lives? Travis Microserv e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can get 6mbit mobile broadband sometimes as a perk for getting a permanent connection in your apartment/house. My parents had a 26Mbit down DSL connection out in the sticks (5miles from closest bus stop and grocery store) before they moved to a city (35min away and closest city within an hours drive of a 55k population, celebrated 800 years about 5 yrs ago) and now have a 100Mbit connection. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:07:45 To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right 100 meg is quite prevalent in Scandinavia and 1 gig is spreading. A 1 meg guarantee isn't much of anything there. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Robert West mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
problem with Grant programs that force applicants to be evaluated on both abilty to serve largest population and deliver at lowest costs. I dont want to give access to prime tower assets at a discount, no more than the property owners I pay wont discount it. I need to be selective on how these valuable resources are used.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right If I had a $1 for every propoerty owner that would not allow me to deploy broadband to an inquiring prospect, I'd be a millionaire. Wow Tom, if even remotely true this should be a glaring indicator of something very wrong with your approach. I understand that a pinch of story additive may help make your point when frustrated, but dilute your claim down from 1,000,000 to 10,000, 1,000 or even 100 and I still don't think we've been turned away 100 times in the ten years we've been deploying fixed wireless. Maybe comments you've made like I'll legally force you to allow me, or buy me an alternative are rubbing the property owner's the wrong way? I dunnojust a stab in the dark... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 6:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Actually, from that perspective LEGAL right could be a good thing, and better if expanded I want to put an antenna on the roof, and its the only way to get broadband there, and the property manager says no. I now say YOU need to let me because its my legal right to have it. I'll legally force you to allow me, or buy me an alternative. What it really needs to read is Americans have the LEGAL RIGHT to Broadband of CHOICE. Now that would be a good thing for competition.. Or Americans have Legal Right to BRoadband of Choice, without excessive fees charged by third parties at a rate higher than they'd charge other broadband providers for delivering broadband. Could you imaging if Wireless PRoviders could pull Roof easements with the same power as ILECs pull ground easements? If I had a $1 for every propoerty owner that would not allow me to deploy broadband to an inquiring prospect, I'd be a millionaire. Or atleast my sales reps wouldn't always get discouraged and quit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Yeah. A legal right. In that case, I ground my son from that damn Maple Story he plays hours on end and he calls children's services because I violated his legal rights... What other things do I have the legal right to that I don't have, I wonder... This is that Entitlement crap again. I'm entitled to fresh water, nutritious and healthy food, safe place to live, 100mb download speed internet, blah, blah, blah. Bunch of babies. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
100 meg is quite prevalent in Scandinavia and 1 gig is spreading. A 1 meg guarantee isn't much of anything there. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
You can get 6mbit mobile broadband sometimes as a perk for getting a permanent connection in your apartment/house. My parents had a 26Mbit down DSL connection out in the sticks (5miles from closest bus stop and grocery store) before they moved to a city (35min away and closest city within an hours drive of a 55k population, celebrated 800 years about 5 yrs ago) and now have a 100Mbit connection. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:07:45 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right 100 meg is quite prevalent in Scandinavia and 1 gig is spreading. A 1 meg guarantee isn't much of anything there. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Eje - where is this? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 11:41 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can get 6mbit mobile broadband sometimes as a perk for getting a permanent connection in your apartment/house. My parents had a 26Mbit down DSL connection out in the sticks (5miles from closest bus stop and grocery store) before they moved to a city (35min away and closest city within an hours drive of a 55k population, celebrated 800 years about 5 yrs ago) and now have a 100Mbit connection. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:07:45 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right 100 meg is quite prevalent in Scandinavia and 1 gig is spreading. A 1 meg guarantee isn't much of anything there. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:46 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Hi, Because you have direct experience, I'm curious if you could share what is different in their lives because they have a 100Mbps connection? What can they do on that connection that they can't do on a 1Mbps connection? How has it changed their lives? Travis Microserv e...@wisp-router.com wrote: You can get 6mbit mobile broadband sometimes as a "perk" for getting a permanent connection in your apartment/house. My parents had a 26Mbit down DSL connection out in the sticks (5miles from closest bus stop and grocery store) before they moved to a city (35min away and closest city within an hours drive of a 55k population, celebrated 800 years about 5 yrs ago) and now have a 100Mbit connection. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: "Mike Hammett" wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:07:45 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right 100 meg is quite prevalent in Scandinavia and 1 gig is spreading. A 1 meg guarantee isn't much of anything there. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Robert West" robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:46 PM To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the "internet" we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. "Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die!" Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI >From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that "We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection." Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailm
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
I want a car, a boat, an rv, a 2nd home, what else? You get it all! But wait, there's more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four -rickg On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Yeah. A legal right. In that case, I ground my son from that damn Maple Story he plays hours on end and he calls children's services because I violated his legal rights... What other things do I have the legal right to that I don't have, I wonder... This is that Entitlement crap again. I'm entitled to fresh water, nutritious and healthy food, safe place to live, 100mb download speed internet, blah, blah, blah. Bunch of babies. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
[WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb. A human right? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Dude, you're talking about France. What do you expect? ;-) Chuck On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Jayson Baker wrote: My thoughts exactly. A human right. Duh? On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb. A human right? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Yeah. A legal right. In that case, I ground my son from that damn Maple Story he plays hours on end and he calls children's services because I violated his legal rights... What other things do I have the legal right to that I don't have, I wonder... This is that Entitlement crap again. I'm entitled to fresh water, nutritious and healthy food, safe place to live, 100mb download speed internet, blah, blah, blah. Bunch of babies. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
The faster the pipe, the faster the surrender! Ouch. Was that the French side of my family rolling over in their graves? Marco On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote: Dude, you're talking about France. What do you expect? ;-) Chuck On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Jayson Baker wrote: My thoughts exactly. A human right. Duh? On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb. A human right? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Oui Polo -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right The faster the pipe, the faster the surrender! Ouch. Was that the French side of my family rolling over in their graves? Marco On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com wrote: Dude, you're talking about France. What do you expect? ;-) Chuck On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Jayson Baker wrote: My thoughts exactly. A human right. Duh? On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb. A human right? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Very Funny! Thats right, they have the right to go pick up a shovel and run their own fiber to their home :-) Actually, as a consumer, and not an LEC, I wish I had that right. Did they say who's responsibility it was to pay for it and deploy it? Yeah, the consumer should have the right to take out their wallet and pay for it if they need it. A right, is the act of preserving one's ability to continue doing something within their control to do. Preserving rights are imparative where there may otherwise be discrimination. But Forcing someone else to give something is a violation of freedom and rights. So what they are really saying is what? Tax payers have the responsibility to pay for it? Thats the most rediculous thing I ever heard. I agree that all Americans deserve the right to be considered equally when planning how to deploy broadband, regardless to where they live or who they are. But legal right to have it, thats a whole nother level. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David Hulsebus cont...@portative.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
Actually, from that perspective LEGAL right could be a good thing, and better if expanded I want to put an antenna on the roof, and its the only way to get broadband there, and the property manager says no. I now say YOU need to let me because its my legal right to have it. I'll legally force you to allow me, or buy me an alternative. What it really needs to read is Americans have the LEGAL RIGHT to Broadband of CHOICE. Now that would be a good thing for competition.. Or Americans have Legal Right to BRoadband of Choice, without excessive fees charged by third parties at a rate higher than they'd charge other broadband providers for delivering broadband. Could you imaging if Wireless PRoviders could pull Roof easements with the same power as ILECs pull ground easements? If I had a $1 for every propoerty owner that would not allow me to deploy broadband to an inquiring prospect, I'd be a millionaire. Or atleast my sales reps wouldn't always get discouraged and quit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Yeah. A legal right. In that case, I ground my son from that damn Maple Story he plays hours on end and he calls children's services because I violated his legal rights... What other things do I have the legal right to that I don't have, I wonder... This is that Entitlement crap again. I'm entitled to fresh water, nutritious and healthy food, safe place to live, 100mb download speed internet, blah, blah, blah. Bunch of babies. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
I am confused: What happend to the rights granted under the FCC OTARD rules for a wirless antenna installed ? -- Faisal Imtiaz Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Actually, from that perspective LEGAL right could be a good thing, and better if expanded I want to put an antenna on the roof, and its the only way to get broadband there, and the property manager says no. I now say YOU need to let me because its my legal right to have it. I'll legally force you to allow me, or buy me an alternative. What it really needs to read is Americans have the LEGAL RIGHT to Broadband of CHOICE. Now that would be a good thing for competition.. Or Americans have Legal Right to BRoadband of Choice, without excessive fees charged by third parties at a rate higher than they'd charge other broadband providers for delivering broadband. Could you imaging if Wireless PRoviders could pull Roof easements with the same power as ILECs pull ground easements? If I had a $1 for every propoerty owner that would not allow me to deploy broadband to an inquiring prospect, I'd be a millionaire. Or atleast my sales reps wouldn't always get discouraged and quit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right Yeah. A legal right. In that case, I ground my son from that damn Maple Story he plays hours on end and he calls children's services because I violated his legal rights... What other things do I have the legal right to that I don't have, I wonder... This is that Entitlement crap again. I'm entitled to fresh water, nutritious and healthy food, safe place to live, 100mb download speed internet, blah, blah, blah. Bunch of babies. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Robert West wrote: I can see somewhere in the near future, after all major technologies converge into devices that run on whatever version of the internet we will have at that time, that this would be a feasible argument however at this moment and probably in the next 10 years the vast majority of us will be able to live and survive perfectly fine with no internet. I don't understand the 1mg limit for the human right. Keep in mind, it's a *legal* right (soon) in Finland, not a human right. People are conflating the French decree with Finland's. Chuck Most information, other than video, can be had at mere dial up speed. How would slower internet speeds be the difference between life or death? My 15 year old. Dad! If I can't see the Whack-a-kitty video on YouTube I'm just gonna die! Okay, that much I DO understand. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of David Hulsebus Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-m akes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right
I know this is an unpopular stance to take on this list, but what the hey--so are most of my postings. I actually would say this makes economic sense. If we think it is worthwhile to spend thousands of dollars per child per year to provide them an education (yeah, blatant socialism, I know), then a few hundred dollars a year, if that, per household for Internet is a bargain. -Clint Ricker On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.comwrote: My thoughts exactly. A human right. Duh? On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Seriously my brain hurts that is so dumb. A human right? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Thanks for your post Dave. I didn't know this was going on. David Hulsebus wrote: FYI From SANS Newsbites Vol. 11 Num. 82 : Broadband Internet Access Deemed a Legal Right --Finland Declares 1Mb Broadband Access a Legal Right (October 14 15, 2009) The Finnish government has enacted a law making 1Mb broadband Internet access a legal right. The law will take effect in July 2010. The country may eventually guarantee its citizens the right to 100Mb broadband connections. Finland's Transport and Communications Ministry spokesperson Laura Vikkonen was quoted as saying that We think [the Internet is] something you cannot live without in modern society. Like banking services or water or electricity, you need an Internet connection. Earlier this year, France declared Internet access to be a human right. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/10/15/finland-makes-broadband-internet-a-legal-right.aspx Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies, LLC www.portative.com -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
