Re: [WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Peter, VOIP Providers are still trying to figure out how to make money. Agreed. But because they are constantly turning down business that could make them money. Everybody is out for the BIG sale. Its the biggest mistake new sales people make. They spemd loads of time trying to get the big deal, and then when they don'tget it, and have wasted months and months of time. The guys that succeed, are the ones that turn every converstation into a sale of some sort. And they just slow and steady keep chugging away 1 penny at a time, but after the months go by, they realize their pennies have added up to be way more than the sales guy going for the big sale that never happened. I'd like to pose another view... Why is it hard to make money at VOIP? Because their are lots of challenges and competition! So I pose the question, Would someone rather have a few sales that were likely to stay around for life with reoccurring revenue, and be trouble-free with no headaches to worry about, with an inside man in the background making sure that everything was getting taken care. Or would they prefer to have 1000s of sales that lost money or brought very little margin in at all, all of rock bottom margin, with no loyalty willing to switch on a time to save 10 cents, which most likely will switch at some point just a matter of when, constantly vulnerable to client theft from competitors, and constantly full of headaches both technical in nature and bill collecting, with no control mechanism in place to guarantee Quality of Service? I'd chose Option 1 any day of the week. If I get rid of my headaches, can close the deal quickly and move forward, I'm making money and I'll continue to make money. I don't care how small the partner is, if they can deliver Option 1 to me. VOIP providers should realize one fact to be successful, they need to win the relationships with the people that own the networks, period. Landing those relationships helps guarantee the foundation for growth in the future. THe small provider of today is the large provider of tommorrow. The owners of the networks can provide Quality of Service guarantees ON-NET, Customer retainment by bundling and leveraging relationship, Easy quick sales as an add-on, Inside knowledge to help keep customer, And when chosen as a reseller a person to handle all the problems for the VOIP provider. This all translates at the end of the day to colecting revenue painlessly and getting the bills paid. The other issue VOIP providers need to consider is one very important topic in legislation today. Its a one way or the other, do or die, issue with no in between that will shape the the way VOIP will be delivered. Will an ISP or Connectivity provider be allowed to block or Prioritize the data that crosses its network, whether by Source, Destination, or type? Sounds like a firewall to me, but its how ISPs will deal with VOIP traffic over their network. AS much as it would be nice for the consumer and VOIP providers to not allow discrimination of VOIP data, I believe at the end of the day, its legislation that can not be inforced or proven adequately regardless of the legislation outcome, and therefore legislation will not control how connectivity provider will manage VOIP data on their networks. VOIP providers are taking a VERY large risk relying on the fact that they will always have free reign to send their data across others' networks at the connectivity provider's cost, and no cost to the VOIP provider. The best way to extinguish this risk, is to partner with as many connectivity providers as possible. It doesn't matter how many they sell. All it takes is one customer on my network, taht someone on your network wants to call, to make the other VOIP user unsatisfied. The sooner VOIP providers get this, the sooner, they are safe in the space. If they have an opportunity to ahve a partnership with out a cost tobuy, they should snag it. Waiving setup fees, is chump change for that advantage. My comment about Voice not being data and CLEC failures: CLECs fail because they have a BOC business structure and processes without having the BOC monopoly. CLECs fail because they sell me-too products on price and the implementation is usually not smooth. (I don't care if it is the ILEC's fault - the customer perceives the problem as the CLEC). I agree. Deploying VOIP is not like putting in a DSL modem and heading home. Extensions, LAN assesment, yadda da. But then you sold PCPBXs so you know all this. Sometimes Vendors forget that not everyone was born inside a shoe. Just because someone is a new VOIP prospect to them does not mean they are new to VOIP. I don't claim to be an expert. But our experience is vast, as far as our ability to reduce the VOIP providers technical problems. We've worked with VOIP lines with atleast 50 different vendors, and 20 different phone systems. IN 15 years of telecom/Network integra
Re: [WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Peter R. wrote: You would be best to build it yourself or buy it from another WISP like Matt. (Or Lightyear). We have had trouble supporting other WISPs that are rural from a DID perspective, but the DC area where Tom's company is located is certainly easy. -Matt VOIP Providers are still trying to figure out how to make money. I don't see much hope for them either. I see VoIP becoming free long-term. As it stands now, we are practically giving it away with our data service. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
On 1/3/06, Peter R. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Many companies would rather work with 25 companies that sell 100s than 2500 companies that sell 10.Even ISPs tell me they would rather have 100 subs making a $1 each than2 subs making $50 each.I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but this is how I have seen itover the last 5 years dealing with the industry. I think you meant this the other way around - I, at least, would rather have 2x$50 than 100x$1. Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Tom, You would be best to build it yourself or buy it from another WISP like Matt. (Or Lightyear). You are not going to find your described Partner. Vendors are usually not partners. I have dealt with many, many companies in the telecom space - and hardly any understand the word. VOIP Providers are still trying to figure out how to make money. Many sell both retail and wholesale - which leads you to the ILEC model of vendor/competitor. My comment about Voice not being data and CLEC failures: CLECs fail because they have a BOC business structure and processes without having the BOC monopoly. CLECs fail because they sell me-too products on price and the implementation is usually not smooth. (I don't care if it is the ILEC's fault - the customer perceives the problem as the CLEC). You can only blame the FCC for so much. How about DA/YP/WP? Do you know how many CLECs forgot that? Deploying VOIP is not like putting in a DSL modem and heading home. Extensions, LAN assesment, yadda da. But then you sold PCPBXs so you know all this. I think you missed the point about 20 subs or less being prohibitive. For an ISP, having a referral agent doing 20 subs is huge. For a national provider, 20 lines is a waste of time. Many companies would rather work with 25 companies that sell 100s than 2500 companies that sell 10. Even ISPs tell me they would rather have 100 subs making a $1 each than 2 subs making $50 each. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but this is how I have seen it over the last 5 years dealing with the industry. Regards, Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Peter, CP is not a middle man. CP is the VOIP CLEC providing the service. Someone like Reignmaker or another ISP would be the middle man. You must have misunderstood. I was not referring to CommPartners as a middle man. CommPartners would not deal direct with us via our terms. (Or I would not accept their terms for doing business). So we needed to use a third party CommPartner's reseller, which sat between Commpartners and us (RapidDSL), nad I was referring to that third party as the middle man. But to say that a Reseller does not present costs to the vendor is incorrect. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it would be less expensive partnering with us, than a middle man reseller, because we bring more to the table and need less attention. And that I as a reseller would also incur costs equivellent to the costs that the wholesaler would incur. Why does CommPartners deserve to reimbursed for those costs anymore than I deserve to be reimbursed for my costs that I incur in the partnership, to pursue it? Training for one. With CP you get to send up to 4 people to classes in Vegas. Thats the last thing we need, escpecially not in Vegas. (Our wives would kill us). We already know anything that we need to know to be efficient selling VOIP, training is not necessary. (possibly to even deploy it). Not that I'm saying we are a know it all. Some Commpartner specific marketing info might be needed, but thats a cost of business. I'd argue that the cost to fly my guys down there, and the hourly wages of my staff, that I would pay, would be far greater than the cost of Commpartner's staff cost to provide training, taking that they are local, and have one traininer to many attendees. Most of the time/effort/energy is for the first couple of orders. No start-up wants to use that much $$ to get 20 lines going. And billing (and associated collections) does have costs as well. Plus I won't get into the fact that LNP and E-911 are hard to automate. The LNP is handed off to L3. But OSS inter-operability with the 4 BOCs, Sprint, Alltel/Valor, and the myriad of miscellaneous independent ILECs and CLEC is not an easy task for Voice service. I agree. Exactly why I prefer to partner with an existing CLEC than to build ourselves. However a wholesaler that sees eye to eye with me, is required before I have that option. However, my argument is that a wholesaler's (Commpartners) costs and challenges, no matter how technical or difficult, are no more difficult and challenging than the obstacles that face a successful WISP. Why are their (wholesalers) costs more justifiable to get reimbursed for than my (WISP) costs? Anyone can become a CLEC. Not everyone can gain a strategic advantage to reach a unique market share, nor gain access to and spectrum rights for prime broadcast sites, or exclusive partnerships with Landlords, to reach exclusive new markets. What a WISP offers, I consider a more rare component, and therfore hold a higher worth. I'd also argue that the wholesaler's costs would be much less if partnering with a worthly WISP that has more to offer than a papertrail, such as expertise and reputation to require less attention from wholesaler, and inside knowledge be more effective with its subscribers. For a wholesaler to be more effiicient and successful, they are better off partnering direct with the WISP than controls and maintains the network. The technical advanage of doing so will save both companies a tremendous amount over time in labor and reputation, compared to the cost saving obtained by selection a high volume middleman to sit between the WISP and the wholesaler. And if you look at the space: 1200+ providing VOIP to the EU. About 300+ providing retail and wholesale. I've watched wholesalers go BK. Why do you think L3 got out of it? Levels did not get out of it, they just got out of managed PBX. They got smart and realised the conflict of interest that existed competing agisnt the VOIP providers that purchased origination and termination services. Level3 was better possitioned to be wholesale origination, and not end user services. That was an insight not a failure. I do see others following suit. Thats the golden question. Whos following suit? Any other good true wholesale options available? Otherwise, we'll need to build soon. We are loosing to much business waiting. Gettting the CLEC status is not that big of a deal, we have to eat that cost anyway, to prepare for our planned fiber buildouts in upcomming years. On the flip side, DIY VOIP, while attractive to the hands-on people on this list, is not always the best method. I agree, its not because its difficult, its because there is only so much time in the day, so spend it doing what you do best.. And with LNP, E-911 and federal/state fee collections, why bother when you can buy turnkey? Like Doug MacDonald says: IF you can not build it faster, cheaper and bette
[WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Tom, CP is not a middle man. CP is the VOIP CLEC providing the service. Someone like Reignmaker or another ISP would be the middle man. Actually, CP is using the L3 model. But to say that a Reseller does not present costs to the vendor is incorrect. Training for one. With CP you get to send up to 4 people to classes in Vegas. Most of the time/effort/energy is for the first couple of orders. No start-up wants to use that much $$ to get 20 lines going. And billing (and associated collections) does have costs as well. Plus I won't get into the fact that LNP and E-911 are hard to automate. The LNP is handed off to L3. But OSS inter-operability with the 4 BOCs, Sprint, Alltel/Valor, and the myriad of miscellaneous independent ILECs and CLEC is not an easy task for Voice service. And if you look at the space: 1200+ providing VOIP to the EU. About 300+ providing retail and wholesale. I've watched wholesalers go BK. Why do you think L3 got out of it? I'm not saying CP's strategy is the best. Just that I understand it and if that is there model. Great. I do see others following suit. On the flip side, DIY VOIP, while attractive to the hands-on people on this list, is not always the best method. And with LNP, E-911 and federal/state fee collections, why bother when you can buy turnkey? Like Doug MacDonald says: IF you can not build it faster, cheaper and better, then buy it - don't build it. Not to keep badgering, but if voice was so easy, why did so many CLECs collapse?? VOIP is not data at the EU space. They may get mad about email issues, but if dial-tone don't work, your name will be mud. Imagine having a decent network size, good reputation, happy customers. Then start offering VOIP and have a few unexpected issues like bad call quality, busy signals, dropped calls. Won't be long before people won't want your data product either. I take issue with the Commodity market. If you think it is a commodity market, you don't understand the value yourself, so your employees and customers don't either. Then you have to sell on price. You need to take a class with Gitomer. He'll fix that attitude. Also, remember, if you can prioritize your network for your preferred VOIP provider, you cannot fault the BOCs for doing the same to their network. Just me 2 cents. Peter Tom DeReggi wrote: I've recomended CommPartners many times to WISPs, as a good choice for someone thats willing to pay the upfront fee, as their QOS and Value is high compared to other offerings in the space. Sales team was very responsive. Technically they were very responsive as well and appeared to be solid. However, now that someone has responded to my original post, its got me thinking, and I have to vent a small rampage. I agree and understand your explanation, and Commpartner's intent. I just think its the wrong view to have. There is no need for resellers (middle men) in VOIP. It just creates billing/cashflow headaches for everyone involved, not to mention support issues. That problem was learned with the DSL model. With DSL it was justified because the cost to have a DS3 pipe to each small volume ISP provider just wasn't realistic. So it was a technology barrier and cost barrier that justified the middleman model that included resellers. In VOIP there is no value added by the middle man, to justify it. There are better way to motivate partners than to create barrier to entry. What it really does is just deter partnerships from ever happening. Big volume is made by having a lot of small partners that sell a little bit, rather than a few partners that sell a lot. It sends a message that Commpartners only wants to deal with the big fish, or our competitors (ILECS / Cable companies), and thats not what I call an allie. How much time does it really take for a wholesaler like Commpartners to deal with a small WISP doing low volume? Its an automated web portal to do business!!! The truth is, the $5000 fee is a way for CommPartners to cover it's sales people's commissions. Wholesalers need to put as many resellers on the street as they can, some work, some don't, and if there are enough out there trying, the odds are you'll also get the ones that are successful. Everyone has potential, its near impossible to know in advance which partners end up being the volume ones. All that should matter is if there is scenargy between the two partner companies, and a likely hood that their is a match in the vision of the two parties. If CommPartners can't cost justify partnerships with low volume WISPs, then it really means CommPartners is not yet at the stage where it is automated enough yet, or its operations are not yet efficient enough to handle a large number of partners. That exposes a weakness in CommPartners. Success in VOIP is a race to obtain subscribers. They should be taking on EVERY partner they can get their hands on. If they don't recognize that, I fear they may not be o
