Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Mark Radabaugh]

Faisal has good advice here.   The licensed gear is marginally more expensive 
but just works.   No worries about interference and you free up the unlicensed 
spectrum for what makes you $$$ - point to multipoint.  You (probably) can't 
buy licensed spectrum for PtMP, but you can for point to point.

The way the CBRS rules are working out I'm not convinced 3550-3700 is going to 
be a band you want to use for PTP due to the complexity of the SAS and the 
potential of required frequency changes.

Mark 

> On Nov 18, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Faisal Imtiaz  wrote:
> 
> Want some serious advice ? 
> 
> Do yourself a favor, and try to break the addiction of using un-licened freq 
> for backhaul... 
> hold your self in, and explore the world of licensed links... even if you can 
> only afford to by equipment on the used market space.. 
> 
> Believe me, you will sleep better, and focus on the side of your business 
> where it counts 
> The outlay has a tremendous ROI.
> 
> Rough numbers...
> 
> Coordination cost   sub $700
> FCC license cost   $500 / site
> Hardware  (realistic / reasonable spend)  $3000  to $6000 for a complete 
> link
> and this will give you roughly 300meg duplex (more or less depending on 
> equipment, freq and channel etc etc).
> 
> :)
> 
> Best of luck, and my apologies for not answering your direct question.
> 
> 
> Regards.
> 
> 
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
> 
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
> 
> From: "Chadwick Wachs" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 11:09:41 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License
> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing license 
> holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful of backhauls 
> to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure if this is a smart 
> move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some insight from those who have much 
> more knowledge on where the FCC is going with this and what the likely value 
> of a 3.65 license will be both today and next year (?) when the licenses are 
> potentially opened back up.
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between $500 
> and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet spot for the 
> few that have sold around here. 
> 
> ___
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> Wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Sean Heskett]

+ 1 bazillion

use unlicensed and licensed lite (aka 3.65) for PMP and part 101 licensed
for PTP backhaul.  if it's short distances then use 24ghz which is
unlicensed PTP spectrum.

2 cents

-sean



On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 9:59 PM, Faisal Imtiaz 
wrote:

> Want some serious advice ?
>
> Do yourself a favor, and try to break the addiction of using un-licened
> freq for backhaul...
> hold your self in, and explore the world of licensed links... even if you
> can only afford to by equipment on the used market space..
>
> Believe me, you will sleep better, and focus on the side of your business
> where it counts
> The outlay has a tremendous ROI.
>
> Rough numbers...
>
> Coordination cost   sub $700
> FCC license cost   $500 / site
> Hardware  (realistic / reasonable spend)  $3000  to $6000 for a
> complete link
> and this will give you roughly 300meg duplex (more or less depending on
> equipment, freq and channel etc etc).
>
> :)
>
> Best of luck, and my apologies for not answering your direct question.
>
>
> Regards.
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Chadwick Wachs" 
> *To: *"WISPA General List" 
> *Sent: *Friday, November 18, 2016 11:09:41 AM
> *Subject: *[WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License
>
> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing license
> holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful of backhauls
> to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure if this is a smart
> move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some insight from those who have
> much more knowledge on where the FCC is going with this and what the likely
> value of a 3.65 license will be both today and next year (?) when the
> licenses are potentially opened back up.
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between
> $500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet spot for
> the few that have sold around here.
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Want some serious advice ? 

Do yourself a favor, and try to break the addiction of using un-licened freq 
for backhaul... 
hold your self in, and explore the world of licensed links... even if you can 
only afford to by equipment on the used market space.. 

Believe me, you will sleep better, and focus on the side of your business where 
it counts 
The outlay has a tremendous ROI. 

Rough numbers... 

Coordination cost sub $700 
FCC license cost $500 / site 
Hardware (realistic / reasonable spend) $3000 to $6000 for a complete link 
and this will give you roughly 300meg duplex (more or less depending on 
equipment, freq and channel etc etc). 

:) 

Best of luck, and my apologies for not answering your direct question. 

Regards. 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Chadwick Wachs" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 11:09:41 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing license
> holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful of backhauls to
> get off of crowded 5GHz space. However, I'm not sure if this is a smart move
> (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some insight from those who have much more
> knowledge on where the FCC is going with this and what the likely value of a
> 3.65 license will be both today and next year (?) when the licenses are
> potentially opened back up.
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between $500 
> and
> $2000. It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet spot for the few that
> have sold around here.

> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Rick Harnish]

Fred,

Thanks for your clarification.  I knew that PAL spectrum would float to GAA
spectrum if needed to avoid Incumbent Users.  You answered several of my
questions and we all appreciate the hard work you are doing for WISPA and
the industry.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
Director of WISP Markets
Baicells Technologies, N.A.
Mobile: +1.972.922.1443
Email: rick.harn...@baicells.com
Follow us on Facebook for the latest news

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Goldstein
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:00 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

On 11/18/2016 1:23 PM, Rick Harnish wrote:
> Fred,
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that 3.55 - 
> 3.62 GHz
> (70 MHz) will be allocated to (7) 10 MHz PAL licenses, which will be 
> auctioned per census tract.  3.62 - 3.70 GHz (80 MHz) will be 
> allocated to GAA (General Authorized Access) with carve-outs for 
> Incumbent Users such as the Satellite Earth Station Protection Zones 
> and possibly Naval Radar entering an area.

Not quite.  The band will not be divided like that, and PALs will not be
assigned specific frequencies like PCS. A PAL grants the right to create a
PAL Protection Area (PPA) within the owned census tracts. The SAS assigns
the PAL channel. A PA licensee who claims multiple PALs in a location will
be assigned contiguous channels if possible, but they can be any of the 10
from 3550-3650. (3650 up is all GAA, after incumbents are protected.) First
they protect satellites, and those can go as low as 3600. Plus any radar, of
course, when/where it pops up in the coastal  zone. So if radar reduces the
availability of channels, PAL can be shifted away and thus bump GAA.

Given how PALs work, a CBSD may be PAL in one census tract and GAA in
another. A PPA goes down to the -96 dBm contour but only gets protection
from noise above -80 dBm, so within its PPA it could have a -16 dBm SNR.

A PA licensee could even try putting on a lot of stuff GAA and then only
invoke the PAL on sectors where it seems needed. Having one PAL could be
handy for that reason, and in rural areas it might be affordable.

> And to Josh's comment, I do still have about 30 license holders 
> looking for a buyer.  Contact me off list at rharn...@fibertothefarm.com
if interested.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Rick Harnish
> Director of WISP Markets
> Baicells Technologies, N.A.
> Mobile: +1.972.922.1443
> Email: rick.harn...@baicells.com
> Follow us on Facebook for the latest news
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of Fred Goldstein
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 12:11 PM
> To: wireless@wispa.org
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License
>
> On 11/18/2016 11:09 AM, Chadwick Wachs wrote:
>> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing 
>> license holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a 
>> handful of backhauls to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm 
>> not sure if this is a smart move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted 
>> some insight from those who have much more knowledge on where the FCC 
>> is going with this and what the likely value of a 3.65 license will 
>> be both today and next year (?) when the licenses are potentially 
>> opened back up.
>>
>> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling 
>> between
>> $500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet 
>> spot for the few that have sold around here.
>>
> Existing 3.65 licenses all expire on the same date in 2020, *except* a 
> few from late 2010- early 2013 that can expire as late as 2023. They 
> allow you to add new radios under that license, but they are not 
> protected (from other types of CBRS users) as "incumbent" under the 
> now-operative Part 96 CBRS rules. Registration of devices that will 
> qualify as "incumbent" closed in 2015. So you can operate new gear, 
> but will have the same status as GAA (licensed-by-rule) users once 
> CBRS gear has gone through the whole process to make the new band 
> usable. There will be no Priority Access Licenses operating above 
> 3.65; PAL is limited to 3.55 to 3.65.
>
> Of course 3.65 is still subject to satellite restrictions, if you're 
> in one of the Protection Zones. Satellites are Incumbent, so on CBRS, 
> they will get protection, and both GAA and PAL channels will be 
> assigned around them. However, unlike today's 150km zones, CBRS will 
> use the Spectrum Authorization System to compute the required 
> protection. That will certainly mean less than 150 km.
>
> You can look in the FCC's ULS to see if anyone else is registered 
> nearby

Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Fred Goldstein]

On 11/18/2016 1:23 PM, Rick Harnish wrote:

Fred,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that 3.55 - 3.62 GHz
(70 MHz) will be allocated to (7) 10 MHz PAL licenses, which will be
auctioned per census tract.  3.62 - 3.70 GHz (80 MHz) will be allocated to
GAA (General Authorized Access) with carve-outs for Incumbent Users such as
the Satellite Earth Station Protection Zones and possibly Naval Radar
entering an area.


Not quite.  The band will not be divided like that, and PALs will not be 
assigned specific frequencies like PCS. A PAL grants the right to create 
a PAL Protection Area (PPA) within the owned census tracts. The SAS 
assigns the PAL channel. A PA licensee who claims multiple PALs in a 
location will be assigned contiguous channels if possible, but they can 
be any of the 10 from 3550-3650. (3650 up is all GAA, after incumbents 
are protected.) First they protect satellites, and those can go as low 
as 3600. Plus any radar, of course, when/where it pops up in the 
coastal  zone. So if radar reduces the availability of channels, PAL can 
be shifted away and thus bump GAA.


Given how PALs work, a CBSD may be PAL in one census tract and GAA in 
another. A PPA goes down to the -96 dBm contour but only gets protection 
from noise above -80 dBm, so within its PPA it could have a -16 dBm SNR.


A PA licensee could even try putting on a lot of stuff GAA and then only 
invoke the PAL on sectors where it seems needed. Having one PAL could be 
handy for that reason, and in rural areas it might be affordable.



And to Josh's comment, I do still have about 30 license holders looking for
a buyer.  Contact me off list at rharn...@fibertothefarm.com if interested.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
Director of WISP Markets
Baicells Technologies, N.A.
Mobile: +1.972.922.1443
Email: rick.harn...@baicells.com
Follow us on Facebook for the latest news

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Goldstein
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 12:11 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

On 11/18/2016 11:09 AM, Chadwick Wachs wrote:

We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing
license holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful
of backhauls to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure
if this is a smart move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some
insight from those who have much more knowledge on where the FCC is
going with this and what the likely value of a 3.65 license will be
both today and next year (?) when the licenses are potentially opened
back up.

It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between
$500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet
spot for the few that have sold around here.


Existing 3.65 licenses all expire on the same date in 2020, *except* a
few from late 2010- early 2013 that can expire as late as 2023. They
allow you to add new radios under that license, but they are not
protected (from other types of CBRS users) as "incumbent" under the
now-operative Part 96 CBRS rules. Registration of devices that will
qualify as "incumbent" closed in 2015. So you can operate new gear, but
will have the same status as GAA (licensed-by-rule) users once CBRS gear
has gone through the whole process to make the new band usable. There
will be no Priority Access Licenses operating above 3.65; PAL is limited
to 3.55 to 3.65.

Of course 3.65 is still subject to satellite restrictions, if you're in
one of the Protection Zones. Satellites are Incumbent, so on CBRS, they
will get protection, and both GAA and PAL channels will be assigned
around them. However, unlike today's 150km zones, CBRS will use the
Spectrum Authorization System to compute the required protection. That
will certainly mean less than 150 km.

You can look in the FCC's ULS to see if anyone else is registered
nearby. 3.65 is subject to a "sandbox clause", wherein users have to
play nice with one another. It's unlikely that well-focused backhauls
will run into a problem there, but you should know who's around.





--
 Fred R. Goldstein  k1iofred "at" interisle.net
 Interisle Consulting Group
 +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Rick Harnish]

Fred,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that 3.55 - 3.62 GHz
(70 MHz) will be allocated to (7) 10 MHz PAL licenses, which will be
auctioned per census tract.  3.62 - 3.70 GHz (80 MHz) will be allocated to
GAA (General Authorized Access) with carve-outs for Incumbent Users such as
the Satellite Earth Station Protection Zones and possibly Naval Radar
entering an area.  

And to Josh's comment, I do still have about 30 license holders looking for
a buyer.  Contact me off list at rharn...@fibertothefarm.com if interested.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
Director of WISP Markets
Baicells Technologies, N.A.
Mobile: +1.972.922.1443
Email: rick.harn...@baicells.com
Follow us on Facebook for the latest news

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Goldstein
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 12:11 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

On 11/18/2016 11:09 AM, Chadwick Wachs wrote:
> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing 
> license holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful 
> of backhauls to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure 
> if this is a smart move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some 
> insight from those who have much more knowledge on where the FCC is 
> going with this and what the likely value of a 3.65 license will be 
> both today and next year (?) when the licenses are potentially opened 
> back up.
>
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between
> $500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet 
> spot for the few that have sold around here.
>

Existing 3.65 licenses all expire on the same date in 2020, *except* a 
few from late 2010- early 2013 that can expire as late as 2023. They 
allow you to add new radios under that license, but they are not 
protected (from other types of CBRS users) as "incumbent" under the 
now-operative Part 96 CBRS rules. Registration of devices that will 
qualify as "incumbent" closed in 2015. So you can operate new gear, but 
will have the same status as GAA (licensed-by-rule) users once CBRS gear 
has gone through the whole process to make the new band usable. There 
will be no Priority Access Licenses operating above 3.65; PAL is limited 
to 3.55 to 3.65.

Of course 3.65 is still subject to satellite restrictions, if you're in 
one of the Protection Zones. Satellites are Incumbent, so on CBRS, they 
will get protection, and both GAA and PAL channels will be assigned 
around them. However, unlike today's 150km zones, CBRS will use the 
Spectrum Authorization System to compute the required protection. That 
will certainly mean less than 150 km.

You can look in the FCC's ULS to see if anyone else is registered 
nearby. 3.65 is subject to a "sandbox clause", wherein users have to 
play nice with one another. It's unlikely that well-focused backhauls 
will run into a problem there, but you should know who's around.


-- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1iofred "at" interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701


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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Fred Goldstein]

On 11/18/2016 11:09 AM, Chadwick Wachs wrote:
We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing 
license holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful 
of backhauls to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure 
if this is a smart move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some 
insight from those who have much more knowledge on where the FCC is 
going with this and what the likely value of a 3.65 license will be 
both today and next year (?) when the licenses are potentially opened 
back up.


It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between 
$500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet 
spot for the few that have sold around here.




Existing 3.65 licenses all expire on the same date in 2020, *except* a 
few from late 2010- early 2013 that can expire as late as 2023. They 
allow you to add new radios under that license, but they are not 
protected (from other types of CBRS users) as "incumbent" under the 
now-operative Part 96 CBRS rules. Registration of devices that will 
qualify as "incumbent" closed in 2015. So you can operate new gear, but 
will have the same status as GAA (licensed-by-rule) users once CBRS gear 
has gone through the whole process to make the new band usable. There 
will be no Priority Access Licenses operating above 3.65; PAL is limited 
to 3.55 to 3.65.


Of course 3.65 is still subject to satellite restrictions, if you're in 
one of the Protection Zones. Satellites are Incumbent, so on CBRS, they 
will get protection, and both GAA and PAL channels will be assigned 
around them. However, unlike today's 150km zones, CBRS will use the 
Spectrum Authorization System to compute the required protection. That 
will certainly mean less than 150 km.


You can look in the FCC's ULS to see if anyone else is registered 
nearby. 3.65 is subject to a "sandbox clause", wherein users have to 
play nice with one another. It's unlikely that well-focused backhauls 
will run into a problem there, but you should know who's around.



--
 Fred R. Goldstein  k1iofred "at" interisle.net
 Interisle Consulting Group
 +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Seth Mattinen]

On 11/18/16 08:09, Chadwick Wachs wrote:
> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing
> license holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful
> of backhauls to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure if
> this is a smart move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some insight
> from those who have much more knowledge on where the FCC is going with
> this and what the likely value of a 3.65 license will be both today and
> next year (?) when the licenses are potentially opened back up.
>
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between
> $500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet spot
> for the few that have sold around here.


The NN licenses will never open back up - something new and different 
will take its place and all of them will eventually be canceled.

Whether or not you want to wait is the question.

~Seth
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Re: [WISPA] 3.65 Ghz License

[Josh Luthman]

Ask Rick Harnish.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Chadwick Wachs 
wrote:

> We are considering the purchase of a 3.65 license from an existing license
> holder who is not using it. We would be using it for a handful of backhauls
> to get off of crowded 5GHz space.  However, I'm not sure if this is a smart
> move (buying a 3.65 license) and wanted some insight from those who have
> much more knowledge on where the FCC is going with this and what the likely
> value of a 3.65 license will be both today and next year (?) when the
> licenses are potentially opened back up.
>
> It looks like these licenses, at least in my area, are selling between
> $500 and $2000.  It sounds like $1,000 tends to be about the sweet spot for
> the few that have sold around here.
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>
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