Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Actually the broken device example happens with electricity too.

There can be a failed hot water heater.  Shorted wires etc. that run the 
bill way up.

The difference is that people don't leave their hair dryer on 24/7.  They 
know it uses a lot of resources so they turn it off.

They will also install heat pumps instead of regular ol' furnaces.  They 
will insulate a house to better conserve electricity, therefore money.

With our telecom model of all you can eat for one flat price there is NO 
incentive for efficiency.  People don't care how bad the encryption 
mechanisms are for that movie they want to download.  They don't care how 
big that Microsoft update is etc.  The ONLY ones paying attention to those 
things are the dial-up users, they have no choice but to watch their usage.

Eventually one of two things has to happen.  Bandwidth has to become free, 
you just hook into the system, pay a flat rate and use all you could 
possibly want.  Or it'll be a cost per unit basis, like long distance used 
to be.  And, ahem, everything else in life already is.

Know what I think the REAL driver for pay for use will be?  Better privacy 
laws.  When companies can no longer data mine your activities and use that 
for a source of income they'll have to find a better way to make money off 
of the consumer.

Shrug.  Something will have to give in the next 5 years.

Who knows, maybe some radio company will finally come up with a really good 
mechanism for spectrum sharing and pushing bandwidth.  Then GIVE that 
technology to the entire industry.  How cool would it be to be able to get 
rid of the wi-fi mechanism while keeping the current hardware pricing 
models.

Here's one for you.  I think we should push the FCC to allow AP sync, like 
what can be done via 5 gig.  We should also push for wi-fi radios to include 
a sync mechanism in them so that we can more effectively avoid interference. 
Especially with ourselves on our own towers.

pondering
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's


Hi,

I've kept this email since you sent it out. I just now read the article,
and I agree with many things stated there. About two days before you
sent this article, it came to my mind (because there was a discussion
about metered billing) that electricity is metered... yet, it's so cheap
now that people don't worry about leaving their TV or lights on while
they are gone from the house for a few hours. I think some day internet
access may come to that level as well... but it may be 100 years from
now before that happens.

The biggest difference with electricity vs. internet service is that all
the devices for internet service require two-way communication.
Electricity is easy... you put it out on the wires, and people use it as
they need it. There are almost no limits on the amount they can use,
etc. Internet is different... the biggest difference is that every
device that is connected can become infected, have bad hardware, or
essentially take on a life of it's own... thus using more resources than
what anyone realizes. A user could leave a bittorrent service running
for 29 days before it's noticed... and then get a bill for $500 for that
month's service... and nobody is happy.

I think this is the reason that telco's and cableco's took so long to
get internet going... they didn't know how to deal with two-way
communication... and having a device on the connection that could cause
an entire block, switch, router, etc. to have problems was totally new
to them. Cable was easy when it was "download" only... same with
telephone... a direct line back to a switch in a CO is easy... either it
works or it doesn't.

Will the internet evolve to something like electricity? I believe the
answer is yes... but that is still a long time into the future... I
doubt many of us will see it in our lifetimes.

Travis
Microserv


Brian Webster wrote:
> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 <http://publicola.net/?p=20687>
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> ---

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

One difference is they are not bringing in big electrical power "in the 
hopes" that someone will connect. They don't bring anything into these 
rural areas until AFTER you (or someone else) has committed to using 
that much service.

It would be like having a business call and say "I need a 100Mbps 
connection to the internet and I will pay your normal, posted pricing no 
questions asked.". Who here couldn't make that happen, regardless of the 
location? :)

Travis
Microserv


Brian Webster wrote:
> Travis,
>   The electrical grid is not as easy to manage and build as some people 
> might
> think, even if it is one way so to speak. Found this out when I was building
> rural cellular towers. When we would pull service to a new site it would be
> built for 800-1200 amps capacity. In some parts of the country when we asked
> the power company to plan for that they would go crazy. In parts of
> Washington and Oregon we had to submit very sophisticated load planning
> documents. In some cases they stated they could not deliver the amount of
> service for the planned capacity the tower was built for. We had seen
> carriers easily max out a 200 amp service in summer months with their big
> shelters and HVAC units. In some cases AT&T or Nextel had to pull in a
> second 200 amp service. Telling the power companies this in the rural areas
> made them nervous. I eventually got to speak with one of the engineers, he
> explained the in some places the grid was not built to handle large
> commercial loads like what we had planned and it meant major construction
> and upgrades for them to deliver that level of demand.
>   The comparison to the electrical grid in that article is more to the 
> point
> of how they had the same challenges as we do with broadband, getting service
> to rural areas they could not cost justify the build out. More importantly
> back when they had the arguments about building the electrical
> infrastructure, people had no concept what technologies would evolve using
> electricity. They just thought it was going to bring lights. Look at all of
> the things that developed in the last 100 years that required the use of
> electricity. Now imagine (or try to) what will evolve from the use of the
> internet in the next 80 years and beyond. I'll be the first to admit I have
> been wrong about many technologies or things that I thought were not
> possible just a few years ago. I'm a fool if I think things can't or won't
> change over time.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early
> 1900's
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've kept this email since you sent it out. I just now read the article,
> and I agree with many things stated there. About two days before you
> sent this article, it came to my mind (because there was a discussion
> about metered billing) that electricity is metered... yet, it's so cheap
> now that people don't worry about leaving their TV or lights on while
> they are gone from the house for a few hours. I think some day internet
> access may come to that level as well... but it may be 100 years from
> now before that happens.
>
> The biggest difference with electricity vs. internet service is that all
> the devices for internet service require two-way communication.
> Electricity is easy... you put it out on the wires, and people use it as
> they need it. There are almost no limits on the amount they can use,
> etc. Internet is different... the biggest difference is that every
> device that is connected can become infected, have bad hardware, or
> essentially take on a life of it's own... thus using more resources than
> what anyone realizes. A user could leave a bittorrent service running
> for 29 days before it's noticed... and then get a bill for $500 for that
> month's service... and nobody is happy.
>
> I think this is the reason that telco's and cableco's took so long to
> get internet going... they didn't know how to deal with two-way
> communication... and having a device on the connection that could cause
> an entire block, switch, router, etc. to have problems was totally new
> to them. Cable was easy when it was "download" only... same with
> telephone... a direct line back to a switch in a CO is easy... either it
> works or it doesn't.
>
> Will the internet evolve to something like electricity? I believe the
> answer is yes... but that is still a long time into the future..

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Brian Webster]

Travis,
The electrical grid is not as easy to manage and build as some people 
might
think, even if it is one way so to speak. Found this out when I was building
rural cellular towers. When we would pull service to a new site it would be
built for 800-1200 amps capacity. In some parts of the country when we asked
the power company to plan for that they would go crazy. In parts of
Washington and Oregon we had to submit very sophisticated load planning
documents. In some cases they stated they could not deliver the amount of
service for the planned capacity the tower was built for. We had seen
carriers easily max out a 200 amp service in summer months with their big
shelters and HVAC units. In some cases AT&T or Nextel had to pull in a
second 200 amp service. Telling the power companies this in the rural areas
made them nervous. I eventually got to speak with one of the engineers, he
explained the in some places the grid was not built to handle large
commercial loads like what we had planned and it meant major construction
and upgrades for them to deliver that level of demand.
The comparison to the electrical grid in that article is more to the 
point
of how they had the same challenges as we do with broadband, getting service
to rural areas they could not cost justify the build out. More importantly
back when they had the arguments about building the electrical
infrastructure, people had no concept what technologies would evolve using
electricity. They just thought it was going to bring lights. Look at all of
the things that developed in the last 100 years that required the use of
electricity. Now imagine (or try to) what will evolve from the use of the
internet in the next 80 years and beyond. I'll be the first to admit I have
been wrong about many technologies or things that I thought were not
possible just a few years ago. I'm a fool if I think things can't or won't
change over time.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early
1900's


Hi,

I've kept this email since you sent it out. I just now read the article,
and I agree with many things stated there. About two days before you
sent this article, it came to my mind (because there was a discussion
about metered billing) that electricity is metered... yet, it's so cheap
now that people don't worry about leaving their TV or lights on while
they are gone from the house for a few hours. I think some day internet
access may come to that level as well... but it may be 100 years from
now before that happens.

The biggest difference with electricity vs. internet service is that all
the devices for internet service require two-way communication.
Electricity is easy... you put it out on the wires, and people use it as
they need it. There are almost no limits on the amount they can use,
etc. Internet is different... the biggest difference is that every
device that is connected can become infected, have bad hardware, or
essentially take on a life of it's own... thus using more resources than
what anyone realizes. A user could leave a bittorrent service running
for 29 days before it's noticed... and then get a bill for $500 for that
month's service... and nobody is happy.

I think this is the reason that telco's and cableco's took so long to
get internet going... they didn't know how to deal with two-way
communication... and having a device on the connection that could cause
an entire block, switch, router, etc. to have problems was totally new
to them. Cable was easy when it was "download" only... same with
telephone... a direct line back to a switch in a CO is easy... either it
works or it doesn't.

Will the internet evolve to something like electricity? I believe the
answer is yes... but that is still a long time into the future... I
doubt many of us will see it in our lifetimes.

Travis
Microserv


Brian Webster wrote:
> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 <http://publicola.net/?p=20687>
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian W

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

I've kept this email since you sent it out. I just now read the article, 
and I agree with many things stated there. About two days before you 
sent this article, it came to my mind (because there was a discussion 
about metered billing) that electricity is metered... yet, it's so cheap 
now that people don't worry about leaving their TV or lights on while 
they are gone from the house for a few hours. I think some day internet 
access may come to that level as well... but it may be 100 years from 
now before that happens.

The biggest difference with electricity vs. internet service is that all 
the devices for internet service require two-way communication. 
Electricity is easy... you put it out on the wires, and people use it as 
they need it. There are almost no limits on the amount they can use, 
etc. Internet is different... the biggest difference is that every 
device that is connected can become infected, have bad hardware, or 
essentially take on a life of it's own... thus using more resources than 
what anyone realizes. A user could leave a bittorrent service running 
for 29 days before it's noticed... and then get a bill for $500 for that 
month's service... and nobody is happy.

I think this is the reason that telco's and cableco's took so long to 
get internet going... they didn't know how to deal with two-way 
communication... and having a device on the connection that could cause 
an entire block, switch, router, etc. to have problems was totally new 
to them. Cable was easy when it was "download" only... same with 
telephone... a direct line back to a switch in a CO is easy... either it 
works or it doesn't.

Will the internet evolve to something like electricity? I believe the 
answer is yes... but that is still a long time into the future... I 
doubt many of us will see it in our lifetimes.

Travis
Microserv


Brian Webster wrote:
> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   



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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Gary Garrett]

I am told it is the fluoride in the water.


> 
> What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
> the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
> anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
> religion?Maybe?   I dunno.
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Chuck Bartosch]

On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:27 PM, MDK wrote:

> There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
> broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
> automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
> Cripes.
> 
> And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
> due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
> reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
> semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
> start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
> and our savior"

Odd. I haven't ever heard ANYONE on this or any WISPA list say that (or 
anything remotely like that). The moment someone doesn't curse the government 
and everything it does, you apparently hear "government is holy..." or 
whatever. And not everyone perceives the government simplistically as all good 
or all bad. You might think it is all bad, outside of the military, but that 
doesn't mean anyone who doesn't agree thinks it is "all good". There is room 
for nuance here, really there is.

>  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
> disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.
> 
> What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
> the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
> anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
> religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

Honestly, the reverse seems the situation to me. You're religiously 
anti-government and any evidence that counters your beliefs you ignore or 
disparage.

> I've repeated till I’m blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
> iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
> drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
> the heck is it?

I think people have given up trying to point out their evidence to you. Any 
time they present evidence to you (like Tim did), you claim it's irrational. Do 
you seriously believe that anything that counters your position is irrational, 
by definition?

By the way, Brian is quite conservative (not to "out" him). He and I talk 
off-line about things like this and he's by no means on the "left".

But seriously, let's move this to WISPA-CHAT? Though I don't expect to insert 
myself into this again, I've copied that list and hope that responses go there 
instead.

Chuck

> 
> 
> 
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
> 
>> Mark,
>>You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>> 
>> 
>> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
>> to
>> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
>> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
>> mind
>> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>> 
>> Thank You,
>> Brian Webster
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>> 
>>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>> 
>>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>>> was the REA.
>>> 
>>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>>> for
>>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>>> the
>>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>>> a
>>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>>> use
>>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>>> certain
>>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>> 
>>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>>> and
>>> it will continue 

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[RickG]

No, but our forefathers did!

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:
>
> > Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
> > have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
> > decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
> > regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
> > committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
> > cafeteria worth a damn
> >
> >
> Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[RickG]

This is the truth. I worked in Senior Management at a REA. Hated the
mentality. -RickG

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:

> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>
> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
> was the REA.
>
> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for
> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
> the
> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a
> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use
> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain
> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>
> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and
> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>
> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in
> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals.
> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
> power
> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress
> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
> doing it.
>
>
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>
> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> > 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
> > electricity
> > (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
> >
> > The Killer App of 1900 
> > by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
> >
> > It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> > electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
> > cities,
> > to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> > today.
> >
> > http://publicola.net/?p=20687
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Brian Webster
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Robert West]

It could be because not all facets of "government" is bad and not all are
good.  When a group of people get to be a a certain size, the need for
government, or the tending to common needs, arise.  The idea of government
is totally rational and reasonable, how it's executed is the cause of the
variables.  Some have a bad experience with one part of it while another
touches nothing but good.  The view is different from where each of us
stand.

This is why a general discussion of "government" or politics will be never
ending or even some that are specific, as this discussion started out being.


Anyone want to debate the existence of Buddha or the greatness of the Dalai
Lama?  

No one on this list will come to a complete agreement even though each and
everyone has their own logic and reason.



Respectfully  Chill, dude.


Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
Cripes.

And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
and our savior"  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.

What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

I've repeated till I'm blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
the heck is it?



------
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> Mark,
> You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>
>
> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
> to
> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
> mind
> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>
>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>> was the REA.
>>
>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>> for
>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>> the
>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>> a
>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>> use
>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>> certain
>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>
>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>> and
>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>
>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>> in
>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>> appeals.
>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>> socialized serv

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's lots of thinking outside the box.   It is interesting... but like a 
broken record, every time someone says "we need think out side the box" the 
automatic response is "have government do it" as if that's "innovation". 
Cripes.

And yes, I'm a broken record.I watch people on this list do incredible 
due diligence as to which equipment to use,  they do entirely rational and 
reasonable things but change the subject, and instantly, they abandon every 
semblance of rationality and their eyes turn into spinning spirals and they 
start repeating...  "Government is holy and our savior, government is holy 
and our savior"  without the slightest evidence of anything except 
disastrous incompetence coming from DC and our state capitals.

What is it that blocks so many people's minds from objectively evaluating 
the performance of government just as they would wireless equipment, an 
anti-virus, a car, a can opener, or even safety gear? It's some kind of 
religion?Maybe?   I dunno.

I've repeated till I’m blue in the face, and nobody can point to a single 
iota of evidence that we should have them do squat for us...   But, the 
drumbeat continues.   Why?Drugs?   Hypnotism?   Mass delusions?What 
the heck is it?



--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:54 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> Mark,
> You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.
>
>
> I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards 
> to
> broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
> cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open 
> mind
> as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:
>
>> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>>
>> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
>> was the REA.
>>
>> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models 
>> for
>> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
>> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
>> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
>> the
>> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" 
>> a
>> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to 
>> use
>> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and 
>> certain
>> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
>> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
>> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>>
>> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, 
>> and
>> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
>> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>>
>> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief 
>> in
>> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional 
>> appeals.
>> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
>> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
>> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
>> power
>> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
>> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When 
>> Congress
>> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
>> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
>> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
>> doing it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Brian Webster" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
>> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>>
>> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared 
>> > to
>> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the 
>> > early
&

Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

Of course they don't.Now, can you provide me ANY evidence to back up the 
notion that government is basically utterly incompetent at most things, 
especially when it comes to providing services to us?

Of course not.Every agency, service, etc, is prime evidence for why I 
think precisely as I do.

I'm just asking people to be rational, not just "have a rosy assessment 
without evidence".



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:47 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
>> have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
>> decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
>> regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
>> committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
>> cafeteria worth a damn
>>
>>
> Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[Brian Webster]

Mark,
 You really sound like a broken record with every topic you post.


I posted the article to force people to think outside the box in regards to
broadband and what we think of how it is used today and the fact that we
cannot necessarily conceive all the uses in the future. Keeping an open mind
as to unknown possibilities I guess :-)

Thank You,
Brian Webster


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM, MDK  wrote:

> There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:
>
> The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So
> was the REA.
>
> Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for
> electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations".
> Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free
> market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control
> the
> game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a
> free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use
> to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain
> government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still
> threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either
> extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.
>
> We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and
> it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until
> people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.
>
> There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in
> superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals.
> There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator
> temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate
> socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan
> power
> to be derived from controlling essential services with political power.
> When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress
> does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness,
> while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual
> difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob
> doing it.
>
>
> --
> From: "Brian Webster" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
> To: "WISPA List" ; ;
> ; "WISPA Board Members List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's
>
> > I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> > electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> > 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to
> > electricity
> > (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
> >
> > The Killer App of 1900 
> > by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
> >
> > It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> > electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and
> > cities,
> > to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> > today.
> >
> > http://publicola.net/?p=20687
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Brian Webster
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:30, MDK  wrote:

> Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they
> have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite
> decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot
> regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who
> committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own
> cafeteria worth a damn
>
>
Not everyone agrees with your pessimistic assessment of government.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

BTW, it WAS an interesting article.

My comment on it was that until the Seattle area governments manage to 
actually DO something... anything.   You know, accomplish at least ONE thing 
they're charged with... YOu know, like end crime, fill the potholes, educate 
the children, or any of the other 2000 things they don’t do worth a damn, 
perhaps adding yet another item for them to NOT accomplish but yet spend 
huge sums of money upon would be...  Uhhh...  Like...   Dumb?

Why is it we think that the same people who cannot clean up Hanford (they 
have yet to clean ONE SINGLE TANK OF WASTE in decades of effort!) despite 
decades of promises and countless billions in budget overruns,  cannot 
regulate the banks, who ran their own post office into the ground, who 
committed fraud against their OWN bank, who can't even run their own 
cafeteria worth a damn

Should run our economy, broadband, health care, and other essential 
services?

Someone... Anyone...   Somewhere...   CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME

Cripes...  I've read a million arguments about the value of MT vs Canopy VS 
blah blah blah blah...   And each of the advocates of the respective 
services or products or people can demonstrate in real life that each can 
actually DO certain things.   But yet, nobody can demonstrate to me a single 
"service" provided by the swamp dwellers on the Potomac that so inspires me 
with awe I want them to do something else for me.

Each of us reading this does SOMETHING.   Presumably more than one 
something, and presumably well.   And, before you advocate to others the 
merits of what you've done or tried or seen or witnessed, you've been all 
over it and it's convinced you...   Someone please show me.

And Jack...  That's not trolling.   It's called HONESTY and INTEGRITY.

If someone came on this list and constantly trolled the virtues of some 
entirely crap product, this list would be all over it like white on rice... 
But for some reason, a certain number of us advocate for a huge industry 
change, choreographed by Congress.Before I buy into it...   PLEASE 
DEMONSTRATE HOW GREAT THEY ARE.

Some of us recall the advocacy of another well known list member who used to 
evangelize for Alvarion.This guy, however, WENT AND SAW AND DID.   When 
he said X, you could generally accept it as reasonably believable, if he was 
talking from experience.

So, I’m not trolling.   I’m just asking... dangit, people...   SHOW ME. 
I'm just not convinced by blind faith that Congress (or state legislatures 
or county or city governments) can, in spite of a track record of utter 
incompetence, suddenly transform our industry into something fantastic.   If 
you want to advocate for it, then SHOW US.Seems danged reasonable to me.





--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
 




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Re: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

[MDK]

There's only one thing you REALLY need to know about it:

The TVA was the source of much fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.So 
was the REA.

Creating monopolies has resulted in highly inefficient business models for 
electricity, and there's only space in this game for "big corporations". 
Just think "Enron".Government thought it could build a pretend free 
market so it could have the benefits of a free market, but still control the 
game.Enron (and other scandals ) was the result.You can't "fake" a 
free market.You can only build a set of rules for creative types to use 
to "game" the system. You know, kind of how our regulators and certain 
government sponsored entities created a massive debt bubble that still 
threatens our nation. EVERY effort to do this will result in either 
extremely inefficient business models...  Or massive fraud.

We have paid a lot for this monopoly status, we're still paying for it, and 
it will continue to absorb our hard earned wealth at immoral rates until 
people stop thinking that "public" = righteous.

There's always going to be excuses for those have an ideological belief in 
superiority of socialized services to advocate them with emotional appeals. 
There's just no reason for any person with an IQ above refrigerator 
temperature to fall for it.There is only one reason to advocate 
socialized services, and that's because there's political and partisan power 
to be derived from controlling essential services with political power. 
When the mob does it by intimidation, we call it criminal.   When Congress 
does it, a certain number of people swoon in awe of their righteousness, 
while the rest of us recoil in disgust.There is, however, no actual 
difference between Congress controlling access to our needs and the mob 
doing it.


--
From: "Brian Webster" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:42 AM
To: "WISPA List" ; ; 
; "WISPA Board Members List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Broadband compared to electricity of the early 1900's

> I have been of the thought process that Broadband needs to be compared to
> electricity and telephone service expansion and deployments of the early
> 1900's. Here is a nice article that draws a direct comparison to 
> electricity
> (and municipal networks). Should be good food for though to all:
>
> The Killer App of 1900 
> by Glenn Fleishman , 12/11/2009, 11:18 AM
>
> It’s instructional to look back 100 years, not long after the first
> electrical generation plants were built to bring power to towns and 
> cities,
> to assess the situation we find ourselves in with broadband availability
> today.
>
> http://publicola.net/?p=20687
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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