Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Mikrotik OSPF can break older Quagga releases. (Imagestream can use Quagga) For example,. I recently installed some RB1100s, and my Zebra .94 machines instantly went into route floods and restarts, and filling log files in a day. I upgraded to Quagga .12 and all good now. (note: Quagga current release is up to .18 now. The week before I had an issue where three OSPF routers were on the same subnet. (mikrotik being the third) and Instantly made OSPF go haywire. Changed so two remote OSFPD servers were on their own IP block, and problem solved. Mikrotik often blaims Quagga for the bug. But then again, tings didn;t crash until the Mikrotik was injected. I guess my point is... OSPF is more complicated than some people think. Its to be expected that different OSPF servers may react differently to certain network conditions. But almost always, there is a way to fix it, when one figures out the design flaw in the configuration, which often is a user issue, more than a manufacturer issue. I like Quagga because there is a huge comunity behind it. Easier for me to support it. But so far my Mikrotik seems to be doing OSPF fine, now that all is configured properly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Kevin Sullivan To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP We've had trouble with Imagestream to Mikrotik OSPF. It seems to break itself every six months or so. Anyone else had to trouble with that? Kevin - Original Message - From: Joe Fiero To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Imagestream has been very good to us as well. Every bit the Cisco experience, but at a fraction of the cost. Reliability has been excellent. They hum along year after year. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Jim, Thats the way to make a sale. I dont see Cisco or Juniper offering that kind of quality support. Roman, If this is for you, and you are only needing less than 10- 300mbps of bandwidth for small to medium need, do yourself a favor, and save your money, and save your time, and go buy a MIkrotik. It will do everything you need, and let you spend your time on making sales, where you need to be spending your time. You will simply save loads and loads of money with Mikrotik. And there really are some good support folk who are also on this list, that you can hire if you get in a bind. If this is something that you are selling to someone else, then its a different story. Its sorta like banks that have IBM PCs sitting on the lobby front desk, but in the back room out of sight, they got all PC clones doing all the heavy lifting. When selling to someone else, budget is not always the biggest concern, expecially when selling to Etnerprise customers. There are other issues like accountability, and hiring techs that might already be familiar with a platform. For example ever john Doe out of computer school likely has had Cisco training. Often your buyers also will be people who have had that Cisco training, and looking for name brand. Juniper is an alternate choice for Cisco. The kind of people that buy Junipoer and Cisco are never going to be interested in a Vyatta, Mikrotik, or ImageStream. Its to risky for them leaving the name brand. But most smaller businesses are going to be fine with what ever you recommend, and Image stream and Mikrotlk both have wonderful solutions for small business. I personally, use our own distro of Linux. The reason is I already put in my time learning how to do it on Linux by hand, and can. My custom solution costs me about $1200-1500 in hardware for the latest XEON 5520 platform, and can push almost 10Gb. I dont recomend that to others, unless they have the staff that is already knolwedageable with Linux and common ISP open source applications. If you are pushing multiple gigs, then you've likely grown the complexity of what you do as a provider, and to select the best product, you really need to have a better idea on your network design goals. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jim Patient To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Roman, If you would like to give me a call, I will set you up a read only account on a live running Powerouter 732 and give you a quick tour of Mikrotik RouterOS. This router is running IPv6 and BGP with multiple peers on the WAN and OSPF on the LAN side. It also has a pretty extensive firewall and quite a few bandwidth queues, tunnels, etc. This router has been in service over 4 years now. Jim Patient Link Technologies, Inc. 314-735-0270 ext. 102 www.linktechs.net or http://ipv6.linktechs.net/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP What I would like to get at this stage is not actual configuration for one-time project. I need some rule-of-thumb in order to apply it for all of my projects to get budget calculation. For example, for projects with not more than 200 subscribers and 10 Mbps backhaul you advise to use configuration Small. Then, for projects with up to 1000 subscribers and 100 Mbps backhaul, you advise to use configuration Medium. For every type of configuration I would like to know its technical characteristics and price. Thank you in advance! -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3747 - Release Date: 07/06/11 -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/image001.png WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
To clarify. 1) Linux routers are plenty good for Enterprise. My point was that its a harder sell to sell them a product they dont know, when there could be many third party trusted advisors chiming in with an opinion that contradicts yours. But no doubt Linux routers can be very power and very stable. 2) I dont like to get into the Imagestream vs Mikrotik war, as they are both very nice products. One difference is the Mikrotik is a closed platform, and Imagestream is an open platform with manufacturer support. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
+1 on point number 1. I've heard the phrase many times nobody every got fired for buying Cisco. Greg On Jul 7, 2011, at 3:02 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote: To clarify. 1) Linux routers are plenty good for Enterprise. My point was that its a harder sell to sell them a product they dont know, when there could be many third party trusted advisors chiming in with an opinion that contradicts yours. But no doubt Linux routers can be very power and very stable. 2) I dont like to get into the Imagestream vs Mikrotik war, as they are both very nice products. One difference is the Mikrotik is a closed platform, and Imagestream is an open platform with manufacturer support. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- * Butch Evans* Professional Network Consultation * * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!* * NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
ImageStream offers them too, but we can't saturate them yet. Jeff ImageStream Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- * Butch Evans* Professional Network Consultation * * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!* * NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
At 7/7/2011 08:47 PM, JeffB wrote: ImageStream offers them too, but we can't saturate them yet. I'm curious...what's the biggest CPU you've tried them on? Vyatta claims to be able to saturate 10G interfaces using multicore Xeons. Even high end Xeon server iron seems cheap compared to the Ciscos it can replace. Jeff ImageStream Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
I guess I knew that 10GigE interfaces were available, but was doubting that you and the MT guys could saturate them. Internally, I wouldn't be too concerned, but if I had to lease a wave, I'd want to make sure I could fill it up. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/7/2011 7:47 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote: ImageStream offers them too, but we can't saturate them yet. Jeff ImageStream Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Butch Evansbut...@butchevans.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- * Butch Evans* Professional Network Consultation * * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!* * NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
I'd imagine this answer goes to all of the higher end x86 Mikrotik boxes that have come out in the past couple years, but Can it fill the 10 gig interface? IE: If I have those 10x GigE interfaces going to different networks, can I fill that 10GigE? I see that your MikroCore 7100 can have 4x 10GigE SFP+ interfaces. How much of that can you fill? I'm not expecting that it can pass 4 x 10 x 2 + 8 x 1 x 2 = 96 gigabits of total throughput, but if it does 9 or 13 that would be kind of disappointing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/7/2011 7:37 PM, Butch Evans wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
I think a sweet spot for a router would have 60 - 80 gigabits of throughput. 3x 10Giges and 0 - 10x GigEs. 1x 10GigE goes East, another goes West, and the last goes up to a cheap provider. The GigEs go to peering fabrics, private peers, alternate upstreams, etc. Oh, and being able to saturate them all. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/7/2011 8:06 PM, Fred Goldstein wrote: At 7/7/2011 08:47 PM, JeffB wrote: ImageStream offers them too, but we can't saturate them yet. I'm curious...what's the biggest CPU you've tried them on? Vyatta claims to be able to saturate 10G interfaces using multicore Xeons. Even high end Xeon server iron seems cheap compared to the Ciscos it can replace. Jeff ImageStream Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Butch Evansbut...@butchevans.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
It's not a processor limitation Fred, it's a Linux issue. It can be fixed, but will require a major re-write. I question that Vyatta has really overcome it. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: At 7/7/2011 08:47 PM, JeffB wrote: ImageStream offers them too, but we can't saturate them yet. I'm curious...what's the biggest CPU you've tried them on? Vyatta claims to be able to saturate 10G interfaces using multicore Xeons. Even high end Xeon server iron seems cheap compared to the Ciscos it can replace. Jeff ImageStream Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 15:02 -0500, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! I have 10G interfaces available with RouterOS. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 09:52, Roman consulttele...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. Chances are, most folks here will suggest either Imagestream routers, or something running Mikrotik's RouterOS. I've used both in my network over the last few years, and they both have all the functionality I need (basic routing and firewalling, BGP, and not much else), at prices that beat the pants off even eBay'ed Cisco gear. If you can go into more details on what you actually need your router to do, we'll be able to provide better/more specific suggestions. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
100% sure I would go Mikrotik. The interface is just so unbeatable when it comes to the firewall, it does all the functions you need in this application. Inside most will suggest x86 Outside most will suggest the 1x00 Routerboard Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:56 AM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote: On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 09:52, Roman consulttele...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. Chances are, most folks here will suggest either Imagestream routers, or something running Mikrotik's RouterOS. I've used both in my network over the last few years, and they both have all the functionality I need (basic routing and firewalling, BGP, and not much else), at prices that beat the pants off even eBay'ed Cisco gear. If you can go into more details on what you actually need your router to do, we'll be able to provide better/more specific suggestions. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- *Bryan Fields* *APAC Imports LLC* Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
What I would like to get at this stage is not actual configuration for one-time project. I need some rule-of-thumb in order to apply it for all of my projects to get budget calculation. For example, for projects with not more than 200 subscribers and 10 Mbps backhaul you advise to use configuration Small. Then, for projects with up to 1000 subscribers and 100 Mbps backhaul, you advise to use configuration Medium. For every type of configuration I would like to know its technical characteristics and price. Thank you in advance! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 2:36 PM, Justin Wilson wrote: I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog -- xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw -- Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting -- Tower Climbing -- Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com mailto:br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com mailto:consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- *Bryan Fields* *APAC Imports LLC* Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
We have units in stock that have dual 10GigE interfaces J --- Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training http://www.onlinemikrotiktraining.com/ - Author of Learn RouterOS http://routerosbook.com/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 2:36 PM, Justin Wilson wrote: I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
At 7/6/2011 04:02 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! Has anyone here used Vyatta? They are the high end of open source routers, and have 10G interfaces. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
My opinion is if you are trusting your network to an open source solution you are taking a lot of faith it will be there tomorrow. Trolling message boards for help when a network supporting 10Gigs of traffic is failing doesn't sound like much fun. I would stick with Mikrotik, Cisco, Juniper, Imagestream, or some combo which has real support. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support On 7/6/11 4:11 PM, Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: At 7/6/2011 04:02 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! Has anyone here used Vyatta? They are the high end of open source routers, and have 10G interfaces. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Not trying to be trollish, but I would trust Vyatta's support way more than Mikrotik. The fact is Mikrotik, Imagestream, and Vyatta are all built largely on open source components. Out of the three Mikrotik appears to not participate and takes advantage of open source developments put forth by many others that build network appliances based on Linux and other open source software. Vyatta offers a 10gigE platform that they support end to end, software and hardware. Sent from my iPad On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:18 PM, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net wrote: My opinion is if you are trusting your network to an open source solution you are taking a lot of faith it will be there tomorrow. Trolling message boards for help when a network supporting 10Gigs of traffic is failing doesn't sound like much fun. I would stick with Mikrotik, Cisco, Juniper, Imagestream, or some combo which has real support. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support On 7/6/11 4:11 PM, Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: At 7/6/2011 04:02 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! Has anyone here used Vyatta? They are the high end of open source routers, and have 10G interfaces. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
At 7/6/2011 04:18 PM, Justin wrote: My opinion is if you are trusting your network to an open source solution you are taking a lot of faith it will be there tomorrow. Trolling message boards for help when a network supporting 10Gigs of traffic is failing doesn't sound like much fun. Vyatta works both ways. You can download the software and trollthe boards, or you can purchase it as a supported product and they will treat it like any other router product. It seems like a good business model, not that much different from Red Hat (download Fedora, or buy supported RHEL). I would stick with Mikrotik, Cisco, Juniper, Imagestream, or some combo which has real support. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Mikrotik support proper isn't as user friendly, but if it isn't a software\hardware bug, they have excellent consultants available to fix you up. If it is a bug, good luck getting them to admit it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 3:34 PM, Jon Auer wrote: Not trying to be trollish, but I would trust Vyatta's support way more than Mikrotik. The fact is Mikrotik, Imagestream, and Vyatta are all built largely on open source components. Out of the three Mikrotik appears to not participate and takes advantage of open source developments put forth by many others that build network appliances based on Linux and other open source software. Vyatta offers a 10gigE platform that they support end to end, software and hardware. Sent from my iPad On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:18 PM, Justin Wilsonli...@mtin.net wrote: My opinion is if you are trusting your network to an open source solution you are taking a lot of faith it will be there tomorrow. Trolling message boards for help when a network supporting 10Gigs of traffic is failing doesn't sound like much fun. I would stick with Mikrotik, Cisco, Juniper, Imagestream, or some combo which has real support. Justin -- Justin Wilsonj...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support On 7/6/11 4:11 PM, Fred Goldsteinfgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: At 7/6/2011 04:02 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! Has anyone here used Vyatta? They are the high end of open source routers, and have 10G interfaces. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Can it do linespeed on those? I'd say within 18 months, I'll be looking for a solution with a half dozen 10GigE (with a half dozen to dozen GigE) and can pass through at least 30 gigabit full duplex. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 3:08 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote: We have units in stock that have dual 10GigE interfaces J *--- **_Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer_** **Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services Office*: 314-735-0270 tel:314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training http://www.onlinemikrotiktraining.com/ - Author of Learn RouterOS http://routerosbook.com//* *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett *Sent:* Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:03 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 2:36 PM, Justin Wilson wrote: I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog -- xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw -- Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting -- Tower Climbing -- Network Support *From: *Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com mailto:br...@apacimports.com *Reply-To: *WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Date: *Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 *To: *WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Cc: *Roman consulttele...@gmail.com mailto:consulttele...@gmail.com *Subject: *Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- *Bryan Fields* *APAC Imports LLC* Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List:wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Imagestream has been very good to us as well. Every bit the Cisco experience, but at a fraction of the cost. Reliability has been excellent. They hum along year after year. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
We've had trouble with Imagestream to Mikrotik OSPF. It seems to break itself every six months or so. Anyone else had to trouble with that? Kevin - Original Message - From: Joe Fiero To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Imagestream has been very good to us as well. Every bit the Cisco experience, but at a fraction of the cost. Reliability has been excellent. They hum along year after year. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Can it do linespeed on those? I'd say within 18 months, I'll be looking for a solution with a half dozen 10GigE (with a half dozen to dozen GigE) and can pass through at least 30 gigabit full duplex. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 3:08 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote: We have units in stock that have dual 10GigE interfaces J --- Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training http://www.onlinemikrotiktraining.com/ - Author of Learn RouterOS http://routerosbook.com/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 2:36 PM, Justin Wilson wrote: I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Sorry for the last empty post, the send button in outlook is too close to the text field;-) Maybe in 18 months we will be there but at this point we just have 2 10G ports and 10 GigE ports. Jim Patient Link Technologies, Inc. 314-735-0270 www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Can it do linespeed on those? I'd say within 18 months, I'll be looking for a solution with a half dozen 10GigE (with a half dozen to dozen GigE) and can pass through at least 30 gigabit full duplex. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 3:08 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote: We have units in stock that have dual 10GigE interfaces J --- Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training http://www.onlinemikrotiktraining.com/ - Author of Learn RouterOS http://routerosbook.com/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Yeah, MT and ImageStream really don't have anything to offer when really pushing 10 gig interfaces. We'll be needing them before too much longer! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 7/6/2011 2:36 PM, Justin Wilson wrote: I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Roman, If you would like to give me a call, I will set you up a read only account on a live running Powerouter 732 and give you a quick tour of Mikrotik RouterOS. This router is running IPv6 and BGP with multiple peers on the WAN and OSPF on the LAN side. It also has a pretty extensive firewall and quite a few bandwidth queues, tunnels, etc. This router has been in service over 4 years now. Jim Patient Link Technologies, Inc. 314-735-0270 ext. 102 www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ or http://ipv6.linktechs.net/ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Roman Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:01 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP What I would like to get at this stage is not actual configuration for one-time project. I need some rule-of-thumb in order to apply it for all of my projects to get budget calculation. For example, for projects with not more than 200 subscribers and 10 Mbps backhaul you advise to use configuration Small. Then, for projects with up to 1000 subscribers and 100 Mbps backhaul, you advise to use configuration Medium. For every type of configuration I would like to know its technical characteristics and price. Thank you in advance! No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3747 - Release Date: 07/06/11 image001.png WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
You can also use demo.mt.lv or demo2.mt.lv any time. At one point it was stable and latest, but MT seems to think 5.5 is both now (many will argue that!) Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:10 PM, Jim Patient jpati...@linktechs.net wrote: Roman, ** ** If you would like to give me a call, I will set you up a read only account on a live running Powerouter 732 and give you a quick tour of Mikrotik RouterOS. This router is running IPv6 and BGP with multiple peers on the WAN and OSPF on the LAN side. It also has a pretty extensive firewall and quite a few bandwidth queues, tunnels, etc. This router has been in service over 4 years now. ** ** ** ** Jim Patient Link Technologies, Inc. 314-735-0270 ext. 102 www.linktechs.net or http://ipv6.linktechs.net/ [image: Description: cid:image001.png@01CC3C05.841E19D0] ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman *Sent:* Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:01 PM *To:* wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP ** ** What I would like to get at this stage is not actual configuration for one-time project. I need some rule-of-thumb in order to apply it for all of my projects to get budget calculation. For example, for projects with not more than 200 subscribers and 10 Mbps backhaul you advise to use configuration Small. Then, for projects with up to 1000 subscribers and 100 Mbps backhaul, you advise to use configuration Medium. For every type of configuration I would like to know its technical characteristics and price. ** ** Thank you in advance! -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3747 - Release Date: 07/06/11*** * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ image001.png WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
Hi Bryan, I'm sorry that your ImageStream experience was not what we strive for. I can assure you that it was not typical. We count our ISP customers in the hundreds...everything from small to ones with thousands of customers. We can fully saturate GigE connections with most packet sizes. We have over 10 years of experience with dynamic routing and building fully redundant networks. We offer telco circuit cards ranging from T1 to OC12 and just about everything in between. I'd love to walk you through the current product line if you have a moment. Regards, Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:05 PM, Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.com wrote: On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP
We have had OSPF issues as well. It seems that every problem Imagestream has seems to stem from the fact that they are using Quagga as the dynamic routing package. I will say however that since they (Imagestream) posted the latest firmware versions with Imagestreams OSPF patches applied, I haven't seen OSPF issues so far. -- Adam Kennedy Network Engineer Omnicity, Inc. From: Kevin Sullivan kevin.sulli...@alyrica.netmailto:kevin.sulli...@alyrica.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:04:13 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP We've had trouble with Imagestream to Mikrotik OSPF. It seems to break itself every six months or so. Anyone else had to trouble with that? Kevin - Original Message - From: Joe Fieromailto:joe1...@optonline.net To: 'WISPA General List'mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP Imagestream has been very good to us as well. Every bit the “Cisco experience”, but at a fraction of the cost. Reliability has been excellent. They hum along year after year. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP I have used Imagestream routers in what I would consider carrier situations. Have had Imagestreams in VRRP running multiple BGP full feeds and Gigs of traffic per second. Not saying it's a do all solution, but is a serious contender. Add on top the fact you don't need $1000's of dollars a year for smartnet I am happy. Not saying it's your solution, but definitely worth looking at. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog – xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw – Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting – Tower Climbing – Network Support From: Bryan Fields br...@apacimports.commailto:br...@apacimports.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:05:10 -0400 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Cc: Roman consulttele...@gmail.commailto:consulttele...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Choosing core router for small - medium WISP On 7/6/2011 10:52, Roman wrote: I would like to ask for help of wireless community. We have to choose supplier of core router for our WISP projects. I know technical characteristics and price for core routers from Cisco - 7200 and 7600 series. Although these models have impressive possibilities, their price is very prohibitive for small/medium projects. Which models of core router do use in your projects? I would like to get your recommendations, its advantages and disadvantages. Would like to know some cheap and middle-price options. It comes down to the feature set you need and the performance required. Can you share your expected traffic numbers and what features you want to run? The cisco 7200 is a bit long in the tooth, the 7600 is the way to go forward. Each can be found on the secondary market for cheap. From a new device purchase decision, it's hard to beat the Juniper SRX series for smaller deployments. a $1500 router can handle 300 mbit/s of IP/mpls and firewall in hardware is hard to beat. The new MX series can handle 80gb/slot and its the next big competition to the 7600 from cisco. Junos is amazing to work with compared to IOS too. However if you do need multiple line rate 10gb/s interfaces, the ALU 7750/7710 should be considered too. I'd not consider the Imagestream product as it's not a serious carrier contender. As of two years back they just did not have a product, and bowed out of an RFP I was forced into running. It's a neat small office router, but that's all. Again this is all my opinion :) -- Bryan Fields APAC Imports LLC Phone: 800-721-6502 Fax: 727-493-1511 http://apacimports.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
