Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Just got off a vacation and picked up this thread. I have the same off on problem when I put my UPS inline on generator power. The batteries do not charge, instead they drain, even when adjusting the sensitivity. So I guess I have a 2-part question... 1. What portable gasoline generators have people been successful with using the APC Smart-UPS 700VA or higher? Successful meaning the generator provides power and the UPS charges its batteries. 2. It's still not clear whether or not these larger generators with automatic transfer switches can run clean enough power to do the same? JohnnyO I'd like to hear about what you've got along these lines that's affordable. Thanks. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We have the exact same generator as well - - only a 16KW - - we too ordered it from Lowes and it was $2900.00 with a $200.00 rebate. It was drop shipped to the NOC - - -and no - - - - we haven't had a single power outage either since we bought and installed it 8 months ago :-) I hear it fire up and run on occasions, but I am still waiting to see it fire up when it really counts. Mac *-Original Message- *From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On *Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:56 PM *To: WISPA General List *Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator * * I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. * *[ snipped link ] * *That's either the very same generator I have, or very close to it. * *(Actually, it's just very close. Ours can run on either propane or *natural gas, and it's presently wired up for the latter.) * *Sadly, in the five months since we moved to our new office, with that *fancy new generator, we haven't had a single power outage. Not so much *as *a flicker. It pops on once a week for its exercise cycle, and I've done *the flip the big switch and make sure the generator fires up test a *couple times, so I assume it works.) * *As with any big purchase, shop around. Ours was $500 cheaper than the *price on that Web site; we just had Lowe's special-order it for us. * *David Smith *MVN.net * *-- *WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org * *Subscribe/Unsubscribe: *http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless * *Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Are the generators you guys have trouble with the inverter type? These are basically an alternator and an inverter tied together. I know Honda makes a number of them. The inverter type generates a square wave to simulate a sine wave, which may cause your trouble. Jason Mark Nash wrote: Just got off a vacation and picked up this thread. I have the same "off on" problem when I put my UPS inline on generator power. The batteries do not charge, instead they drain, even when adjusting the sensitivity. So I guess I have a 2-part question... 1. What portable gasoline generators have people been successful with using the APC Smart-UPS 700VA or higher? Successful meaning the generator provides power and the UPS charges its batteries. 2. It's still not clear whether or not these larger generators with automatic transfer switches can run clean enough power to do the same? JohnnyO I'd like to hear about what you've got along these lines that's affordable. Thanks. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: "Mac Dearman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We have the exact same generator as well - - only a 16KW - - we too ordered it from Lowes and it was $2900.00 with a $200.00 rebate. It was drop shipped to the NOC - - -and no - - - - we haven't had a single power outage either since we bought and installed it 8 months ago :-) I hear it fire up and run on occasions, but I am still waiting to see it fire up when it really counts. Mac *-Original Message- *From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On *Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:56 PM *To: WISPA General List *Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator * * I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. * *[ snipped link ] * *That's either the very same generator I have, or very close to it. * *(Actually, it's just "very close." Ours can run on either propane or *natural gas, and it's presently wired up for the latter.) * *Sadly, in the five months since we moved to our new office, with that *fancy new generator, we haven't had a single power outage. Not so much *as *a flicker. It pops on once a week for its exercise cycle, and I've done *the "flip the big switch and make sure the generator fires up" test a *couple times, so I assume it works.) * *As with any big purchase, shop around. Ours was $500 cheaper than the *price on that Web site; we just had Lowe's special-order it for us. * *David Smith *MVN.net * *-- *WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org * *Subscribe/Unsubscribe: *http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless * *Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Mark Nash wrote: Just got off a vacation and picked up this thread. I have the same off on problem when I put my UPS inline on generator power. The batteries do not charge, instead they drain, even when adjusting the sensitivity. Have you measured the voltage coming out of the generator? -- Scott LambertKC5MLE Unix SysAdmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Also... What generator models/brands have you used with the APC700 UPSs, and had troubles? Maybe we can compare similarities to the various Generators that gave problems. To identify what we are dealing with. It has not been conclusively defined for sure whether this is a UPS or Generator problem. I recognize that the original post had to do with finding a generator that worked with existing deployed APC UPSs. But I have not seen these results with the generators that I have used and our Triplite Smart UPSs. Doesn;t mean there couldn;t be a problem, nor am I contesting that the APC700 has a problem with some generators. This is just a scary topic for me, as I was about to go buy a bunch of APC smart 700 UPSs, and thinking maybe I should reconsider staying with Tripplite. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Mark Nash wrote: Just got off a vacation and picked up this thread. I have the same off on problem when I put my UPS inline on generator power. The batteries do not charge, instead they drain, even when adjusting the sensitivity. Have you measured the voltage coming out of the generator? -- Scott LambertKC5MLE Unix SysAdmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
We've used the Guardians (Generac) from Home Depot. Work fine. Every one I have ever seen came with the transfer switch. Best deal was a 12Kw I got that was brand new, but the transfer switch and the top of the generator were slightly dented. Seems like I gave $1500.00 for it. HD said it was 400.00 below cost. I have been told by the HD folks that unless you have it installed by their folks, the warranty is void, though. I am not sure how true that is. I don't think they (HD) sell them without installation. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
David, Oh, ok...I missed the original post link to the 3800.00 generator. After poking around on the www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com site I came across the $1959.00 7kW LP Natural gas genset delivered, tax included, with transfer switch and $40 check discount. I'm inclined to bite off on that deal if I knew for certain all my APC's (500VA and greater) would be happy with it. grin Ralph, Kudos on a great score at Home Depot! Gotta love a motivated big box manager when in their eyes they have an albatross SKU. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:33 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We've used the Guardians (Generac) from Home Depot. Work fine. Every one I have ever seen came with the transfer switch. Best deal was a 12Kw I got that was brand new, but the transfer switch and the top of the generator were slightly dented. Seems like I gave $1500.00 for it. HD said it was 400.00 below cost. I have been told by the HD folks that unless you have it installed by their folks, the warranty is void, though. I am not sure how true that is. I don't think they (HD) sell them without installation. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Talk with JohnnyO. He has some industrial grade generators with ultra low hours, low rpm running, etc. They put the Home Depot ones to shame and probably not that much more. Justin --- Justin S. Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technology Services - WISP Consulting - Tower Services WEB: http://www.mtin.net WEB: http://www.metrospan.net WEB: http://www.findfastinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator David, Oh, ok...I missed the original post link to the 3800.00 generator. After poking around on the www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com site I came across the $1959.00 7kW LP Natural gas genset delivered, tax included, with transfer switch and $40 check discount. I'm inclined to bite off on that deal if I knew for certain all my APC's (500VA and greater) would be happy with it. grin Ralph, Kudos on a great score at Home Depot! Gotta love a motivated big box manager when in their eyes they have an albatross SKU. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:33 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We've used the Guardians (Generac) from Home Depot. Work fine. Every one I have ever seen came with the transfer switch. Best deal was a 12Kw I got that was brand new, but the transfer switch and the top of the generator were slightly dented. Seems like I gave $1500.00 for it. HD said it was 400.00 below cost. I have been told by the HD folks that unless you have it installed by their folks, the warranty is void, though. I am not sure how true that is. I don't think they (HD) sell them without installation. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Hey Brad - Being George don't wanna call me You call me LOL JohnnyO 337-764-5953 ps. call me after 5pm today .. I may have something you may want...maybe :) - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator David, Oh, ok...I missed the original post link to the 3800.00 generator. After poking around on the www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com site I came across the $1959.00 7kW LP Natural gas genset delivered, tax included, with transfer switch and $40 check discount. I'm inclined to bite off on that deal if I knew for certain all my APC's (500VA and greater) would be happy with it. grin Ralph, Kudos on a great score at Home Depot! Gotta love a motivated big box manager when in their eyes they have an albatross SKU. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:33 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We've used the Guardians (Generac) from Home Depot. Work fine. Every one I have ever seen came with the transfer switch. Best deal was a 12Kw I got that was brand new, but the transfer switch and the top of the generator were slightly dented. Seems like I gave $1500.00 for it. HD said it was 400.00 below cost. I have been told by the HD folks that unless you have it installed by their folks, the warranty is void, though. I am not sure how true that is. I don't think they (HD) sell them without installation. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
You could always buy a Toyota Prius and use it as a generator: http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Toyota-Prius-As-a-Backup-Generator --- Justin S. Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technology Services - WISP Consulting - Tower Services WEB: http://www.mtin.net WEB: http://www.metrospan.net WEB: http://www.findfastinternet.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
I called and got voice mail for someone named Mike? JohnnyO wrote: Hey Brad - Being George don't wanna call me You call me LOL JohnnyO 337-764-5953 ps. call me after 5pm today .. I may have something you may want...maybe :) - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator David, Oh, ok...I missed the original post link to the 3800.00 generator. After poking around on the www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com site I came across the $1959.00 7kW LP Natural gas genset delivered, tax included, with transfer switch and $40 check discount. I'm inclined to bite off on that deal if I knew for certain all my APC's (500VA and greater) would be happy with it. grin Ralph, Kudos on a great score at Home Depot! Gotta love a motivated big box manager when in their eyes they have an albatross SKU. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:33 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator We've used the Guardians (Generac) from Home Depot. Work fine. Every one I have ever seen came with the transfer switch. Best deal was a 12Kw I got that was brand new, but the transfer switch and the top of the generator were slightly dented. Seems like I gave $1500.00 for it. HD said it was 400.00 below cost. I have been told by the HD folks that unless you have it installed by their folks, the warranty is void, though. I am not sure how true that is. I don't think they (HD) sell them without installation. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad Belton wrote: So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? Not quite. I was going on the price posted with the OP's link, which had a displayed price of about $3800 (at the time I looked at it, at least). That unit can run on either propane or natural gas, out of the box (as it were). We paid about $3000 plus sales tax and delivery, which made it around $3200, including the transfer switch and sundry bits. I was surprised to find a good price on a generator at Lowe's, but then I always thought of Lowe's as more of a home improvement store, and didn't expect them to carry things this big. (Maybe I'm just naive or something, dunno.) David Smith MVN.net -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
We have the exact same generator as well - - only a 16KW - - we too ordered it from Lowes and it was $2900.00 with a $200.00 rebate. It was drop shipped to the NOC - - -and no - - - - we haven't had a single power outage either since we bought and installed it 8 months ago :-) I hear it fire up and run on occasions, but I am still waiting to see it fire up when it really counts. Mac *-Original Message- *From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On *Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:56 PM *To: WISPA General List *Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator * * I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. * *[ snipped link ] * *That's either the very same generator I have, or very close to it. * *(Actually, it's just very close. Ours can run on either propane or *natural gas, and it's presently wired up for the latter.) * *Sadly, in the five months since we moved to our new office, with that *fancy new generator, we haven't had a single power outage. Not so much *as *a flicker. It pops on once a week for its exercise cycle, and I've done *the flip the big switch and make sure the generator fires up test a *couple times, so I assume it works.) * *As with any big purchase, shop around. Ours was $500 cheaper than the *price on that Web site; we just had Lowe's special-order it for us. * *David Smith *MVN.net * *-- *WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org * *Subscribe/Unsubscribe: *http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless * *Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
If you are serious about backup power, here is some equipment you might consider; http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/42/p/1/pt/10/product.asp or http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/44/p/1/pt/8/product.asp or http://www.outbackpower.com/Backup.htm John George Rogato wrote: If it was just for radios, I'd be just using ups with extra batteries, but it's actually for a small data room with a half a dozen or more servers and some pc routers etc as well as couple of radios. Right now we are just using ups for each server, but they don't last long, they just help if the power blinks or is out for a short time. But if the power is out for a few hours, I'd like to keep operating. Tom DeReggi wrote: George, We investigated these units about 4 years ago, and they were our first pick for converting to Propaine backup. However, at the time we decided against it for cost reasons. We did not need 16Kwatt and we were not aware of a 7Kwatt model at that time. The $3500 for the 16K base unit is not the only cost. The autotranser switch added about $500, and then the Propain Tank is also an additional cost, but more importantly, the second we used Propaine in a cmmercial building, we needed a licensed Propain installer to do the work, to meet landlords requirements, which added another grand or two. We instead installed Triplite 3500 watt power inverters $500 + 8 high end batteries (CD150AH batteries @ $350 each, but have a 10year + lifespan). The arguement was that generators can be finicky, sometimes not starting on demand, if not routinely tested and started, and with the battery inverter solution we also were bypassing a high UPS cost, which is high for 3500watt rated units. So we solved our problem for 3 grand, instead of 6 grand after all considered, said, and done. Now with that said. Seeing a 7Kwatt unit for only $2000, that changes everything! It would definately be more cost effective doing the generator instead of batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low cost generator http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
You could just add a line conditioner. Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Do you mean something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=150135562844 This idea actually came up as a possible idea between another ISP and me not long ago. I can get the 5605 joule rated version (looks identical to the one listed above) for about $100.00. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter R. Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator You could just add a line conditioner. Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
This is true on the larger more expensive APC UPSs, but the smaller 500 - 750VA models don't have this feature, do they? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Any of the Smart-UPS units have this option. There is a little push-button on the back that you can change the sensitivity without having to use the software. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: This is true on the larger more expensive APC UPSs, but the smaller 500 - 750VA models don't have this feature, do they? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Which ones? I'd only use Smart-UPS and AFAIK, they all have that feature. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator This is true on the larger more expensive APC UPSs, but the smaller 500 - 750VA models don't have this feature, do they? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
automatic transfer does not take place at one quarter of a cycle in a 60 cycle per second AC power supply, then the sensitive logic controllers of any network equipment, PLCs, etc will detect the automatic transfer as a possible zero voltage condition. So What? Does that matter, as it is a one time event when the initial transfer occurs? So the 750VA UPS, temporarilly switches to the UPS battery standby power, keeping Radios up, until the Generator power stablizes as on, then UPS switches back to line power from the generator. IF the generator delivers unclean unstable power so what, that is the purpose of the small APC UPS to keep clean power going to the radio devices. So what if the UPS regularly switches back and forth from battery to Line voltage, as long as the switch is quick within required tolerances, and that it is not to frequent to drain the UPS battery. From my experience, when the UPS did not do its job, it was because the UPS had a bad battery that could not handle the load, or a low grade UPS that did not have a fast enough transfer time itself, not a flaw in the generator's or its autoswitch. What I had understood that George had said was not the the UPS switched back and forth between line and battery, but he said the UPS itself kept switching OFF and ON, as if the UPS was then malfunctioning. What I was wondering was what type of power output was the problematic generator putting out? Pure Sinewave or Pulse Modulated. Many low cost devices put out PulseModulated, which is easier to regulate, to put out regulated power. However, the Squared edge nature of the wave can be interpreted by a UPS further downstream as Bad Power, and possibly even damage the downstream UPS. Which is a reason one is never supposed to install a ppure sinewave UPS downstream of a Pulsemodulated UPS. We had designed some battery backup systems usign Tripplite's Power Inverters (pulse modulated output), which worked great, but we could not use APC Online UPS (puresinewave) UPSes in the racks. To add better surve protection we put the protection directly in the Panel box with AC surge protection. To check status of power outage, we install a cheap Linksys router, plugged directly into the AC outlet prior to the backup power systems, and then when this device stops responding, we know that there is not power beign sent to it. (yes there is an issue where the Linksys could lock up, and then us not know if it is the Linksys locked up or no power). One thing we were considering was to plug it inline with the Generators AC output feed, so teh Linksys bydefault is always off, and then when generator power kicks in the Linksys powers up, and if we can get to it, we know we are runnign on backup power. So the point I'm making is, many generators, just put out raw voltage without regulation, purposely, so a UPS can be used after it to protect against drops and surges, and so Rack based UPSes do not need to be removed. The acception to this is if it has high end voltage regulation that puts out Pure Sinewave power. Its actually relevent that we are specifically talkign about the APC 750VA rackmount UPS. I'm assuming you are talking about the Pure sine wave Online version. That model is a sweat spot model because it is inexpensive, has SNMP model support, and it allows external batteries, and uses the slighly larger battery type, which enables longer run-time. Its worth finding a generator compatible with it. I was surprised to hear you were having the problem you represent. Thats my take on it. But will be interesting what you guys find out on what ends up working best. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Felix A. Lopez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator George/Mike: I worked for 6 years in deep UPS and power quality at PGE in Silicon Valley including IEEE1159 and CBEMA curve. Our field work demonstrated that if an automatic transfer does not take place at one quarter of a cycle in a 60 cycle per second AC power supply, then the sensitive logic controllers of any network equipment, PLCs, etc will detect the automatic transfer as a possible zero voltage condition. The weblink provided below did not specify the automatic transfer switch cycle time (see pages 18 to pages 23). A true UPS with continuous power will actually provide your utility power source through a battery system including power conditioning along with generator backup. I had the opportunity to work with the FAA in Fremont, California which has true UPS it was quite a setup. So you may want to ask at what level you of continuity you need for your wireless network. I know of a few subject matter experts in the industry should you need a consultant. Felix Energy and Wireless practioneer Silicon Valley Area
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Unclean power will cause it to switch back and forth to\from the battery. As said, this is an adjustable setting on the UPS. What Felix is talking about is the switch from line to battery is detected as zero voltage by the powered equipment. There is no doubt that this exists and is an issue that more sensitive electronics have problems with. With constant switching, the powered equipment may fail. If your supply is not clean, the UPS will not fix it. I am unsure if clean power is produced when on battery. A line conditioner's job is to clean up the power. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator automatic transfer does not take place at one quarter of a cycle in a 60 cycle per second AC power supply, then the sensitive logic controllers of any network equipment, PLCs, etc will detect the automatic transfer as a possible zero voltage condition. So What? Does that matter, as it is a one time event when the initial transfer occurs? So the 750VA UPS, temporarilly switches to the UPS battery standby power, keeping Radios up, until the Generator power stablizes as on, then UPS switches back to line power from the generator. IF the generator delivers unclean unstable power so what, that is the purpose of the small APC UPS to keep clean power going to the radio devices. So what if the UPS regularly switches back and forth from battery to Line voltage, as long as the switch is quick within required tolerances, and that it is not to frequent to drain the UPS battery. From my experience, when the UPS did not do its job, it was because the UPS had a bad battery that could not handle the load, or a low grade UPS that did not have a fast enough transfer time itself, not a flaw in the generator's or its autoswitch. What I had understood that George had said was not the the UPS switched back and forth between line and battery, but he said the UPS itself kept switching OFF and ON, as if the UPS was then malfunctioning. What I was wondering was what type of power output was the problematic generator putting out? Pure Sinewave or Pulse Modulated. Many low cost devices put out PulseModulated, which is easier to regulate, to put out regulated power. However, the Squared edge nature of the wave can be interpreted by a UPS further downstream as Bad Power, and possibly even damage the downstream UPS. Which is a reason one is never supposed to install a ppure sinewave UPS downstream of a Pulsemodulated UPS. We had designed some battery backup systems usign Tripplite's Power Inverters (pulse modulated output), which worked great, but we could not use APC Online UPS (puresinewave) UPSes in the racks. To add better surve protection we put the protection directly in the Panel box with AC surge protection. To check status of power outage, we install a cheap Linksys router, plugged directly into the AC outlet prior to the backup power systems, and then when this device stops responding, we know that there is not power beign sent to it. (yes there is an issue where the Linksys could lock up, and then us not know if it is the Linksys locked up or no power). One thing we were considering was to plug it inline with the Generators AC output feed, so teh Linksys bydefault is always off, and then when generator power kicks in the Linksys powers up, and if we can get to it, we know we are runnign on backup power. So the point I'm making is, many generators, just put out raw voltage without regulation, purposely, so a UPS can be used after it to protect against drops and surges, and so Rack based UPSes do not need to be removed. The acception to this is if it has high end voltage regulation that puts out Pure Sinewave power. Its actually relevent that we are specifically talkign about the APC 750VA rackmount UPS. I'm assuming you are talking about the Pure sine wave Online version. That model is a sweat spot model because it is inexpensive, has SNMP model support, and it allows external batteries, and uses the slighly larger battery type, which enables longer run-time. Its worth finding a generator compatible with it. I was surprised to hear you were having the problem you represent. Thats my take on it. But will be interesting what you guys find out on what ends up working best. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Felix A. Lopez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator George/Mike: I worked for 6 years in deep UPS and power quality at PGE in Silicon Valley including IEEE1159 and CBEMA curve. Our field work demonstrated that if an automatic transfer does not take place
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Mike, Thanks for the clarification...And the information provided is All good and helpful. But this is where I'm confused With constant switching What makes characteristics of Constent switching. It should only switch ONCE or TWICE unnecessarilly (which is not Constent), when the backup generator first kicks in. Not sure why thats considered a big problem. Unless one is thinking ahead, that the UPS Batteries may not be good enough, at the time a Power failure occurs and Generator activity is required. Unless suggesting that running on the generator, will cause constant voltage drops, causing repeat UPS false detects. If your supply is not clean, the UPS will not fix it. Most UPSs made by APC above 500VA, both low cost Pulse Modulation models and Smart Online (pure Sinewave) models have Voltage Regulation built-in, and minor surge protection (350 joules or so) for the purpose to clean up the power. With the exception of the really cheapo Desktop models shaped like thick surge protector trips. I recognize that the switch setting on the APC UPS, is what allows one to set the Voltage Variation Range to be less sensitive to the Voltage drops and such, possibly solving the problem using them with generators. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Unclean power will cause it to switch back and forth to\from the battery. As said, this is an adjustable setting on the UPS. What Felix is talking about is the switch from line to battery is detected as zero voltage by the powered equipment. There is no doubt that this exists and is an issue that more sensitive electronics have problems with. With constant switching, the powered equipment may fail. If your supply is not clean, the UPS will not fix it. I am unsure if clean power is produced when on battery. A line conditioner's job is to clean up the power. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator automatic transfer does not take place at one quarter of a cycle in a 60 cycle per second AC power supply, then the sensitive logic controllers of any network equipment, PLCs, etc will detect the automatic transfer as a possible zero voltage condition. So What? Does that matter, as it is a one time event when the initial transfer occurs? So the 750VA UPS, temporarilly switches to the UPS battery standby power, keeping Radios up, until the Generator power stablizes as on, then UPS switches back to line power from the generator. IF the generator delivers unclean unstable power so what, that is the purpose of the small APC UPS to keep clean power going to the radio devices. So what if the UPS regularly switches back and forth from battery to Line voltage, as long as the switch is quick within required tolerances, and that it is not to frequent to drain the UPS battery. From my experience, when the UPS did not do its job, it was because the UPS had a bad battery that could not handle the load, or a low grade UPS that did not have a fast enough transfer time itself, not a flaw in the generator's or its autoswitch. What I had understood that George had said was not the the UPS switched back and forth between line and battery, but he said the UPS itself kept switching OFF and ON, as if the UPS was then malfunctioning. What I was wondering was what type of power output was the problematic generator putting out? Pure Sinewave or Pulse Modulated. Many low cost devices put out PulseModulated, which is easier to regulate, to put out regulated power. However, the Squared edge nature of the wave can be interpreted by a UPS further downstream as Bad Power, and possibly even damage the downstream UPS. Which is a reason one is never supposed to install a ppure sinewave UPS downstream of a Pulsemodulated UPS. We had designed some battery backup systems usign Tripplite's Power Inverters (pulse modulated output), which worked great, but we could not use APC Online UPS (puresinewave) UPSes in the racks. To add better surve protection we put the protection directly in the Panel box with AC surge protection. To check status of power outage, we install a cheap Linksys router, plugged directly into the AC outlet prior to the backup power systems, and then when this device stops responding, we know that there is not power beign sent to it. (yes there is an issue where the Linksys could lock up, and then us not know if it is the Linksys locked up or no power). One thing we were considering was to plug it inline with the Generators AC output feed, so teh Linksys bydefault
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
George, We investigated these units about 4 years ago, and they were our first pick for converting to Propaine backup. However, at the time we decided against it for cost reasons. We did not need 16Kwatt and we were not aware of a 7Kwatt model at that time. The $3500 for the 16K base unit is not the only cost. The autotranser switch added about $500, and then the Propain Tank is also an additional cost, but more importantly, the second we used Propaine in a cmmercial building, we needed a licensed Propain installer to do the work, to meet landlords requirements, which added another grand or two. We instead installed Triplite 3500 watt power inverters $500 + 8 high end batteries (CD150AH batteries @ $350 each, but have a 10year + lifespan). The arguement was that generators can be finicky, sometimes not starting on demand, if not routinely tested and started, and with the battery inverter solution we also were bypassing a high UPS cost, which is high for 3500watt rated units. So we solved our problem for 3 grand, instead of 6 grand after all considered, said, and done. Now with that said. Seeing a 7Kwatt unit for only $2000, that changes everything! It would definately be more cost effective doing the generator instead of batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low cost generator http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Ok George - don't call me :) JohnnyO 337-764-5953 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator If it was just for radios, I'd be just using ups with extra batteries, but it's actually for a small data room with a half a dozen or more servers and some pc routers etc as well as couple of radios. Right now we are just using ups for each server, but they don't last long, they just help if the power blinks or is out for a short time. But if the power is out for a few hours, I'd like to keep operating. Tom DeReggi wrote: George, We investigated these units about 4 years ago, and they were our first pick for converting to Propaine backup. However, at the time we decided against it for cost reasons. We did not need 16Kwatt and we were not aware of a 7Kwatt model at that time. The $3500 for the 16K base unit is not the only cost. The autotranser switch added about $500, and then the Propain Tank is also an additional cost, but more importantly, the second we used Propaine in a cmmercial building, we needed a licensed Propain installer to do the work, to meet landlords requirements, which added another grand or two. We instead installed Triplite 3500 watt power inverters $500 + 8 high end batteries (CD150AH batteries @ $350 each, but have a 10year + lifespan). The arguement was that generators can be finicky, sometimes not starting on demand, if not routinely tested and started, and with the battery inverter solution we also were bypassing a high UPS cost, which is high for 3500watt rated units. So we solved our problem for 3 grand, instead of 6 grand after all considered, said, and done. Now with that said. Seeing a 7Kwatt unit for only $2000, that changes everything! It would definately be more cost effective doing the generator instead of batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low cost generator http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. [ snipped link ] That's either the very same generator I have, or very close to it. (Actually, it's just very close. Ours can run on either propane or natural gas, and it's presently wired up for the latter.) Sadly, in the five months since we moved to our new office, with that fancy new generator, we haven't had a single power outage. Not so much as a flicker. It pops on once a week for its exercise cycle, and I've done the flip the big switch and make sure the generator fires up test a couple times, so I assume it works.) As with any big purchase, shop around. Ours was $500 cheaper than the price on that Web site; we just had Lowe's special-order it for us. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
So, you bought this LP Natural Gas generator for $1460 delivered, including tax and transfer switch? http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =370 That is an amazing deal! Maybe Lowe's made a mistake on the price? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. [ snipped link ] That's either the very same generator I have, or very close to it. (Actually, it's just very close. Ours can run on either propane or natural gas, and it's presently wired up for the latter.) Sadly, in the five months since we moved to our new office, with that fancy new generator, we haven't had a single power outage. Not so much as a flicker. It pops on once a week for its exercise cycle, and I've done the flip the big switch and make sure the generator fires up test a couple times, so I assume it works.) As with any big purchase, shop around. Ours was $500 cheaper than the price on that Web site; we just had Lowe's special-order it for us. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Shame, you have some nice gensets - Original Message - From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Ok George - don't call me :) JohnnyO 337-764-5953 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator If it was just for radios, I'd be just using ups with extra batteries, but it's actually for a small data room with a half a dozen or more servers and some pc routers etc as well as couple of radios. Right now we are just using ups for each server, but they don't last long, they just help if the power blinks or is out for a short time. But if the power is out for a few hours, I'd like to keep operating. Tom DeReggi wrote: George, We investigated these units about 4 years ago, and they were our first pick for converting to Propaine backup. However, at the time we decided against it for cost reasons. We did not need 16Kwatt and we were not aware of a 7Kwatt model at that time. The $3500 for the 16K base unit is not the only cost. The autotranser switch added about $500, and then the Propain Tank is also an additional cost, but more importantly, the second we used Propaine in a cmmercial building, we needed a licensed Propain installer to do the work, to meet landlords requirements, which added another grand or two. We instead installed Triplite 3500 watt power inverters $500 + 8 high end batteries (CD150AH batteries @ $350 each, but have a 10year + lifespan). The arguement was that generators can be finicky, sometimes not starting on demand, if not routinely tested and started, and with the battery inverter solution we also were bypassing a high UPS cost, which is high for 3500watt rated units. So we solved our problem for 3 grand, instead of 6 grand after all considered, said, and done. Now with that said. Seeing a 7Kwatt unit for only $2000, that changes everything! It would definately be more cost effective doing the generator instead of batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low cost generator http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
George - Call me - Soon Sir ! 337-764-5953 JohnnyO - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:27 AM Subject: [WISPA] Low cost generator http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Low cost generator
I have one at my house and have two at one of the data centers. Works great. Im close to putting a couple more on rooftops. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW "job site" type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide "cleaner" power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
You can change this all via the APC management software. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Eric Muehleisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Travis, How do you go about tweaking a UPS? We use APC 750's at most small tower sites. During the event of a power outage we use 1000watt generators but as you said...the UPS just shuts off and on, repeatedly. -Eric Travis Johnson wrote: Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator
It should work, But In our particular case the question was what is the automatic transfer time between the UPS inline with the backup generator? what is the switch over time??? And at what voltage threshold does it switch. IEEE 1159 and the CBEMA curve typically recommend to start looking at 65% to 60% of nominal voltage when switching to backup. The weblink your provided on page 18-23 discusses this point (see the operators manual) But they don't specify the automatic transfers cycle time. We typically called APS, or Exide and also generator manufacturer to ask for what is called relay coordinaton settings. Felix --- George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was hoping to use my apc ups's inline with the back up generator. Any reason why this won't work? Felix A. Lopez wrote: George/Mike: I worked for 6 years in deep UPS and power quality at PGE in Silicon Valley including IEEE1159 and CBEMA curve. Our field work demonstrated that if an automatic transfer does not take place at one quarter of a cycle in a 60 cycle per second AC power supply, then the sensitive logic controllers of any network equipment, PLCs, etc will detect the automatic transfer as a possible zero voltage condition. The weblink provided below did not specify the automatic transfer switch cycle time (see pages 18 to pages 23). A true UPS with continuous power will actually provide your utility power source through a battery system including power conditioning along with generator backup. I had the opportunity to work with the FAA in Fremont, California which has true UPS it was quite a setup. So you may want to ask at what level you of continuity you need for your wireless network. I know of a few subject matter experts in the industry should you need a consultant. Felix Energy and Wireless practioneer Silicon Valley Area --- Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can change this all via the APC management software. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Eric Muehleisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator Travis, How do you go about tweaking a UPS? We use APC 750's at most small tower sites. During the event of a power outage we use 1000watt generators but as you said...the UPS just shuts off and on, repeatedly. -Eric Travis Johnson wrote: Brad, You can adjust the sensitivity of the APC UPS's to handle just about any type of incoming power. We have run a tower off a cheap Home Depot 2000watt by adjusting the APC so it would not keep switching off an on. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: We have found many (most all?) 10kW job site type generators do not work well if at all with APC UPS. In the event of a power failure we simply rent a 25kW towable diesel generator. Granted 25kW is way overkill for most any HUB site, but apparently the larger generators provide cleaner power that the APC UPS's are happy with. Does anyone have one of these 7kW Guardian standby generators in use with APC UPS's? $1999.00 delivered with transfer switch is a pretty strong deal! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low cost generator The Guardian comes as small as 7KW for about $2100 and goes up a long way from there. I have seen Guardians at cell sites and waste water lift stations around here. George Rogato wrote: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id =538 I'm in the market for a generator and came across this one. The auto transfer switch and propane caught my eye and I figured I'd share it with the list. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
