On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:
Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input
seems more than oversight.
Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular
data.
Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to
a
Ted Drake wrote:
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight. A table
would
make
Pringle, Ron wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm coming onto this thread late, so I might be misinformed
as to
what you're trying to accomplish. So you have a form with a variable
number
of fields depending on how many travelers are to be insured, correct?
With a
maximum of 50?
Ah, now I understand what Ted
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:01:38 +, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the
structure certainly is tabular.
To read a table user needs to understand its structure
(associate content with headings,
://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13 January 2005 09:55
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:
Creating a method of output without
Mike Foskett wrote:
Sorry Andy,
I'll have to agree to disagree.
Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as
valid as using a table to layout tabular output.
and
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but
If you want to use tables to lay out your forms (or anything else for
that matter) then go for it.
The point is that it is not layout table. It has semantic value.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repeating sets of data.
hairs and getting semantic, isn't
.
Iain
--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out
your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat. It doesn't contain
any data yet, just a bunch of form inputs. It's not data, it's a means
of laying out a
On 13 Jan 2005, at 16:47, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Well, to be pedantic, a table is all about layout. Layout of
information.
It has semantic value.
I really hate that statement.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains
On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Andy Budd wrote, in part:
hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website
really just data? So why can't present it all using tables?
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that
this
discussion is all about.
Why? How can you say
Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it visually
using one of the standard techniques.
table id=grouptravel summary=Group travel quote border=0
thead
tr
th class=hidden scope=colGroup/th
th
Mike Foskett wrote:
Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.
You say that like it's fact when it's really a matter of opinion.
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
It seems crazy to me that people will come up with
remains uncluttered.
mike 2k:)2
marqueeblink
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 12 January 2005 10:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use
On 12 Jan 2005, at 10:47, Mike Foskett wrote:
Andy Budd wrote:
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular
data, it's an input mechanism.
Er... Agreed.
I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question
was intended to input tabular data hence the
From: Andy Budd
[...]
What I'm saying is that tables are meant to display tabular data
however a form is an input mechanism, not data itself. Thus in my
opinion it would be incorrect to use a table to layout a form.
Yup, that's how I've usually looked at it as well.
allowing people to
the td's inside the label?
That doesn't sound like valid coding.
Perhaps I protesteth too much.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:38 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
From
On 12 Jan 2005, at 16:42, Ted Drake wrote:
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very
inconsistent behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was
using display:none. I'm sure there was something else going on in my
code, but it seemed like the inconsistency in
...
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:43 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very inconsistent
behavior. Some
Ted:
Don't hide labels with display:none. Screen readers don't see it either.
I'd suggest something more like:
.hidden {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden; font-size:1px}
Or use a method that shifts the text off screen to the left.
Maybe consider the approach below even if it has too many
to the screen
reader that the input is meant to handle the age of a traveler?
-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 16:42, Ted Drake
A group of related form controls really belong together in a fieldset
with a legend. Each control can then be labelled correctly. Additional
'how to use' instructions can be provided in the title attribute of each
form control.
Example:
fieldsetlegendPlease select your age/legend
label
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight.
snip
Having 50 labels that
Alex Katechis wrote:
[...]
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/practicalcss/
[...]
span class=labelName:/spanspan
class=formwinput type=text size=25 //span
That's just rubbish. What the heck...span class=label?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables)
Andy:
If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
Therefore data output in tabular form is okay but data input is not.
Hi,
Sorry if I quoted you out of context Andy (I don't have the original
message), but I have a question regarding why forms should or should not
be considered
PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:13 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a
form?)
Andy:
If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
Therefore data output in tabular form is okay
] Can I use a table in a form?
What you're suggesting (putting TDs in a table) sounds like using tables for
layout, which we all know we're not supposed to do... I found an article
that discusses CSS alternatives to the non-standards uses of tables for
layouts... This article from alistapart
(http
Ryan Nichols wrote:
To me tabular means...tabular. Take a look at most real-world forms.
DMV, tax forms, you name it. Mostly all tabular. The form is broken up
into logical groups / cells indicating a relationship of relationship
through the structure.
Yes I know fieldsets also create a
.
--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 12 January 2005 21:28
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table
Iain Gardiner wrote:
They are only semantically correct when used within specific contexts.
Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) with
valid html (correct code). They are two completely different sides of the
same coin. If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a
:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:39 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in
a form?)
Iain Gardiner wrote:
They are only semantically correct when used within specific
contexts.
Too many
G'day
span class=labelName:/spanspan
class=formwinput type=text size=25 //span
That's just rubbish. What the heck...span class=label?
This sort of thing really is just replacing one inappropriate markup
(tables) for another (divs and spans with css styling) and actually
*diminishing* the
Ted Drake wrote:
How can I use a table and still validate for accessibility? Will it be a problem with xhtml?
Ted, try here:
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessible-form-builder.asp?type=table
Jeff
**
The discussion list for
] Can I use a table in a form?
Ted Drake wrote:
How can I use a table and still validate for accessibility? Will it be a
problem with xhtml?
Ted, try here:
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/accessible-form-builder.asp?type=table
Jeff
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