Re: [WSG] re: generate data
I agree - ignorance and couldn't care less are the commonest excuses for not creating professional standards based Websites. On Sun, February 24, 2008 4:02 am, Breton Slivka wrote: I don't really feel like participating in the dramatic part of this- But I can answer some of the questions about javascript. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 6:53 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm more of a designer than a developer. my knowledge of javascript is limited. i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david flanagan. help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more information. i understand that javascript is a programming language. correct i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a data base for storage or retrieval of data. Incorrect- Javascript is absolutely not needed for this. In fact, I would actively discourage this usage, because it makes forms inaccessable to clients without javascript. (Even though I do quite like javascript most of the time) i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark, but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other uses. Javascript is basically a tool to allow website authors to add browser features that are not built in to the browser. That's how I see it anyway. That's not exactly how most people use it, or think of it. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. It's not strictly the usage of javascript that makes the page inaccessable, it's the page's dependance on it. If you think of javascript like I do- A tool for adding features- then the page still needs to be able to work without those features. The reasons for someone making a page that doesn't work without javascript are complicated, but it basically boils down to how the author thinks about what a webpage is, and how it works. I've spoken to the author for instance, of www.eventliving.com. That website does not work at all without javascript- And there's really no reason that it can't. The issue is that the guy who programmed it had a background in Java application development- Not web development. He seemed to think of a website as a specialized kind of program. He didn't seem to know, for instance that the distinction between clientside javascript, and serverside java code was important. The goal was simply to get the website to work in IE, just like with any other program, the goal might be to simply get it to work in windows. There was no awareness of accessibility issues. But that's just one case. Someone might alternatively be perfectly aware of accessibility issues, and there are other reasons for depending on javascript. Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it, is percieved by a lot of people as being quite difficult. Application responsiveness might be a top priority, and the author simply sees no reason to make the site work without javascript. would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question? hijax http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/29 dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it That would not even be true if it was possible to 'know it', which it isn't. Accessibility isn't just a bunch of facts that you have to learn, and it's not just about compliance with the WCAG checkpoints. That's a good starting point but it only tells you if a website *should* be accessible. To assess whether a website *actually is* accessible you need to understand how people will perceive and interact with the content. That requires understanding of user agents, hardware platforms, assistive technologies and all kinds of disabilities. It also requires the ability to balance the conflicting needs of different stakeholders. It requires us to keep learning and reassessing our viewpoints as all these factors change and new technologies and design techniques emerge. Maybe it is trivial when you know all that, but I don't think any of us know enough to start thinking that way. Steve Here, I used the phrase in a sense perhaps, to try to capture more meaning than it was capable of holding. There are, as you have pointed out two ways of knowing accessibility. You can know how to build your site such that it should be accessable according to the standards which assume that all user agents are following the standards. Then also there's the more difficult and expensive kind of accessability where you actually test whether your target users can really use the site or not in reality rather than just the theoretical scenario that the standards describe. When I said in a sense I meant the first kind. The kind that is trivially easy once you know all the techniques and standards. It is particularly easy in comparison to the second kind. The first kind is still seen as difficult and costly to many developers who may not even be aware of the second kind. Nevertheless, accessibility of the first kind is worth doing, and is trivially easy once you know how to do it. Accessibility of the second kind is also worth doing. But in a world where many developer cultures have not even come to grips with accessibility of the first kind, accessibility of the second kind is a tough sell. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
Breton Slivka wrote: Here, I used the phrase in a sense perhaps, to try to capture more meaning than it was capable of holding. There are, as you have pointed out two ways of knowing accessibility. You can know how to build your site such that it should be accessable according to the standards which assume that all user agents are following the standards. Then also there's the more difficult and expensive kind of accessability where you actually test whether your target users can really use the site or not in reality rather than just the theoretical scenario that the standards describe. When I said in a sense I meant the first kind. The kind that is trivially easy once you know all the techniques and standards. It is particularly easy in comparison to the second kind. The first kind is still seen as difficult and costly to many developers who may not even be aware of the second kind. Nevertheless, accessibility of the first kind is worth doing, and is trivially easy once you know how to do it. Accessibility of the second kind is also worth doing. But in a world where many developer cultures have not even come to grips with accessibility of the first kind, accessibility of the second kind is a tough sell. Absolutely! And not only that, 'accessibility' can often vary - what suits one person's needs often doesn't apply in a different case. As you say : not easy! Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] background-position:top center; IE6?
hi, is there any way to get ie6 to accept this property: background-position:top center; i have a tabular nav bar with different width tabs, the background image needs to center itself. thanks kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] background-position:top center; IE6?
Use background-position: 50% 0; On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 2:41 PM, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, is there any way to get ie6 to accept this property: background-position:top center; i have a tabular nav bar with different width tabs, the background image needs to center itself. thanks kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Алексей *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
dwain wrote: if accessibility isn't cracked up to what it's supposed to be, then why are there laws about the subject? The laws are probably there to prevent accessibility from falling through the cracks. Consciously or unconsciously ignoring access for all is after all more the norm than the exception, and that has to change. The two levels of accessibility have been mention. - The first level, where access to content and functionality should be guaranteed on a technical level, is not much of a problem. Basic understanding of how to build a site is all that's required to reach that level. The challenged user-groups I ask for advice, expect me to meet them at that level - which is (slowly being) required by law for public sites in my country anyway. - The second level, where some kind of optimizing for specific user-groups and their hardware/software solutions has to take place, is of course harder. I'm being told *not to go there* by the same challenged user-groups, as more accessible solutions for smaller groups may end up being tied to some weak end-user solutions that should rather be upgraded/replaced and brought in line with the technical level most of them are comfortable with. They work for improvements and solutions that are tailor-made to the individual's needs - at their end, based on common delivery-methods and techniques that can be made to work for all - as long as we developers/designers don't get in their way. A requirement for common delivery-methods and techniques is being introduced by law in my country now anyway - for public sites, which should mean solutions at the user-end will make the need for more accessible solutions at our end a non-issue over time - in Norway. What kind of leveling that is missing/introduced/necessary in other parts of the world is somewhat unknown to me, but providing accessible solutions on a technical level - and pretty much limit it to that, is the only common and sensible approach if we want some progress, IMO. Promoting the need for accessible solutions on a technical level on top of existing and future web standards, should keep us busy enough for quite a while. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] form problem
For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
excellent and right on! dwain On 2/24/08, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it That would not even be true if it was possible to 'know it', which it isn't. Accessibility isn't just a bunch of facts that you have to learn, and it's not just about compliance with the WCAG checkpoints. That's a good starting point but it only tells you if a website *should* be accessible. To assess whether a website *actually is* accessible you need to understand how people will perceive and interact with the content. That requires understanding of user agents, hardware platforms, assistive technologies and all kinds of disabilities. It also requires the ability to balance the conflicting needs of different stakeholders. It requires us to keep learning and reassessing our viewpoints as all these factors change and new technologies and design techniques emerge. Maybe it is trivial when you know all that, but I don't think any of us know enough to start thinking that way. Steve Here, I used the phrase in a sense perhaps, to try to capture more meaning than it was capable of holding. There are, as you have pointed out two ways of knowing accessibility. You can know how to build your site such that it should be accessable according to the standards which assume that all user agents are following the standards. Then also there's the more difficult and expensive kind of accessability where you actually test whether your target users can really use the site or not in reality rather than just the theoretical scenario that the standards describe. When I said in a sense I meant the first kind. The kind that is trivially easy once you know all the techniques and standards. It is particularly easy in comparison to the second kind. The first kind is still seen as difficult and costly to many developers who may not even be aware of the second kind. Nevertheless, accessibility of the first kind is worth doing, and is trivially easy once you know how to do it. Accessibility of the second kind is also worth doing. But in a world where many developer cultures have not even come to grips with accessibility of the first kind, accessibility of the second kind is a tough sell. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form problem
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Hi Michael, Remove the whitespace between the textarea tags and that should fix the problem. Gonzalo González Mora *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form problem
Michale, It looks like there are a couple extra tabs or spaces being placed into the field. That may be throwing it off. Craig On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] form problem
Could be caused by the spacing between your opening textarea and the closing textarea tags Try textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea Also in your label tags your for attributes should have = eg label for=email Regards Jason Gray Webwidget Pty Ltd ABN 27 122 916 134 | PO Box 2633 Taren Point NSW 2229 | Ph 0423 038 000 | Fax 02 8205 8330 www.webwidget.com.au Please consider our environment before printing this email. The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Monday, 25 February 2008 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] form problem For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] form problem
Michael Your current code is label for=commentsComments:/label textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40 /textarea It should be label for=commentsComments:/label textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea There needs to be no spacing between the textarea/textarea tags Regards Jason Gray Webwidget Pty Ltd ABN 27 122 916 134 | PO Box 2633 Taren Point NSW 2229 | Ph 0423 038 000 | Fax 02 8205 8330 www.webwidget.com.au Please consider our environment before printing this email. The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Monday, 25 February 2008 9:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] form problem I fixed that and the problem is still occurring. Also put the = in after the for Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Jason Gray wrote: Could be caused by the spacing between your opening textarea and the closing textarea tags Try textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea Also in your label tags your for attributes should have = eg label for=email Regards Jason Gray Webwidget Pty Ltd ABN 27 122 916 134 | PO Box 2633 Taren Point NSW 2229 | Ph 0423 038 000 | Fax 02 8205 8330 www.webwidget.com.au Please consider our environment before printing this email. The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Monday, 25 February 2008 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] form problem For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form problem
I fixed that and the problem is still occurring. Also put the = in after the for Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Jason Gray wrote: Could be caused by the spacing between your opening textarea and the closing textarea tags Try textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea Also in your label tags your for attributes should have = eg label for=email Regards Jason Gray Webwidget Pty Ltd ABN 27 122 916 134 | PO Box 2633 Taren Point NSW 2229 | Ph 0423 038 000 | Fax 02 8205 8330 www.webwidget.com.au Please consider our environment before printing this email. The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Monday, 25 February 2008 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] form problem For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. I've tried setting the fieid and the form to test:align :center thinking that would resolve the issue and it didn't. Any ideas thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form problem
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Michael Horowitz wrote: For some reason my text field http://terrorfreeamerica.us/christians.html insists on putting the cursor in the middle of the field. Michael, You need your text field like this: textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea Also you have a missing = in label for=submit If you want your form to be accessible you will need your label for= to be identical to your input name = id= Neither of these two examples from your form are accessible. label for =ZipZip:/label input name =zip id = zip type=text/ label for =christian organizationChristian Organization:/label input name =christian id = christian type=text/ The best way to check if you have it right is to click on the field name the cursor should start blinking in the input field. -- Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3 Rob Unsworth | IT Internet Chairman Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form problem
Michael Horowitz provided the following information on 25/02/2008 9:22 AM: I fixed that and the problem is still occurring. Also put the = in after the for It doesn't appear that you have uploaded it then. I tested your code with and without the change. Post change it works as it should. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] form problem
On Behalf Of Jason Gray Michael Your current code is label for=commentsComments:/label textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40 /textarea It should be label for=commentsComments:/label textarea name=comments rows=6 cols=40/textarea The value of the for attribute should match an *id* -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Please help! - CSS Drop Down not working under IE 6
Hello All - I've slaved and slaved at this for over a day and still can't figure out what's wrong with my CSS. I've looked at dozens of CSS drop down tutorials on the web and applied many of the IE specific fixes as recommended, but still no dice. I'm praying someone here can see the error of my ways. First, go here under IE 6: http://www.crewasia.ph/index.php The drop down menuing system at the very top of the screen DOES work (it drops down correctly). You can even select the FIRST menu item on each drop down menu. But, when you try to cursor over any other menu item, POOF! The menu disappears! There's quite a few style sheets on this site, the one controlling the navigation is called c.project_navigation.css. HUGE appreciation to all in advance! Cole *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Please help! - CSS Drop Down not working under IE 6
Cole Kuryakin wrote:
First, go here under IE 6: http://www.crewasia.ph/index.php
The drop down menuing system at the very top of the screen DOES work
(it drops down correctly). You can even select the FIRST menu item on
each drop down menu. But, when you try to cursor over any other menu
item, POOF! The menu disappears!
The absolute positioned dropdowns are stacked behind the header, even
though they appear visually in front. This prevents interaction below a
certain point in both IE6 and IE7.
Try adding...
#navTop {position: relative; z-index: 1;}
...to fix that IE/win stacking of A:P elements bug.
I've only tested that it works in IE7.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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RE: [WSG] Please help! - CSS Drop Down not working under IE 6
Gunlaug -
That did it! Thank YOU so much!! I owe you my friend: If you're ever in the
Philippines, the beer is on me!
Cole
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:02 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Please help! - CSS Drop Down not working under IE 6
Cole Kuryakin wrote:
First, go here under IE 6: http://www.crewasia.ph/index.php
The drop down menuing system at the very top of the screen DOES work
(it drops down correctly). You can even select the FIRST menu item on
each drop down menu. But, when you try to cursor over any other menu
item, POOF! The menu disappears!
The absolute positioned dropdowns are stacked behind the header, even
though they appear visually in front. This prevents interaction below a
certain point in both IE6 and IE7.
Try adding...
#navTop {position: relative; z-index: 1;}
...to fix that IE/win stacking of A:P elements bug.
I've only tested that it works in IE7.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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