Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

[Paul Novitski]

At 8/25/2009 10:11 PM, Andrew Harris wrote:

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*



In all of the discussions of this issue I've read, the final wisdom 
has been to actually hard-code the numbering of contracts, bylaws, 
etc. in nested lists, suppressing the normal list-style-type. That 
might seem retro, but you can't afford to have any of the numbering 
change because of an editing error. The whole point behind 
auto-numbering is thoughtless re-numbering, something a legal 
document cannot tolerate. It would be better to have an 
accidentally-deleted item leave a hole in the numbering that a 
proofreader could easily catch than to have HTML automatically close 
up the numbering sequentially over such an elision.


Another advantage is that the numbering is manifest in the markup 
itself, rather than being a sequence of bare LIs. Someone can snip an 
excerpt from the markup with the numbering intact. (In this vein, 
implementing the numbering of a contract with JavaScript sounds about 
as smart as printing the contract on sheets of ice.)


This decision is made easier, of course, by the limited 
auto-numbering options of HTML!


Justification for hard-coding the numbering from a semantic 
perspective is that the numbering is actually integral to the content 
and not merely an incidental by-product of its sequence in the 
greater list. I believe the logic is that once the legal document is 
finalized, an item's number becomes part of its fixed name used in 
quoting and references and a great weight of legality rests on the 
accuracy and persistence of the numbering.


Of course, when you're drafting a contract it's handy to use 
auto-numbering in word processing, but once you get to the final 
draft stage I'd freeze it for HTML.


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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RE: [WSG] legal list numbering

[Mark Huppert]

Andrew

You cannot mess around with legal documents
by removing or changing numbering.

If you can't code it up in html, it might be
better to use "pre" or even to publish it in pdf.


regards

Mark


Mark Huppert
Library Web Development  &
Integrated Library Management System Coordinator
Division of Information
R.G. Menzies Building (#2)
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

T: +61 02 6125 2752 
F: +61 02 6125 4063
W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/

CRICOS Provider #00120C


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Andrew Harris
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2009 3:12 PM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] legal list numbering

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in
html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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[WSG] legal list numbering

[Andrew Harris]

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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Re: [WSG] An Acceptable Dropdown

[Nick Fitzsimons]

2009/8/23 Bushidodeep :
> All debates aside on drop-down menus, they're called
> for, demanded by some. I like this one,
> and wondered if anyone has a tutorial URL bookmarked?
>

WAI-ARIA has a number of menu-related roles and properties [1]. Newer
browsers, including IE 8, offer reasonably good levels of support, as
do newer versions of some assistive technologies.

There's a good video by Todd Kloots of the YUI team demonstrating the
use of ARIA to enhance accessibility of a drop-down menu: I'll link to
the copy on Eric Miraglia's blog [2], as that includes a transcript.

[1] 
[2] 

Regards,

Nick.
-- 
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Multiple IE's for browser testing

[James Ellis]

Hi

Use virtualbox (.org) and run up a virtual machine that only has IE7 on it. 
You can do this by installing XP into the virtual machine and updating it to 
IE7. Remember to turn off Windows Update so it doesn't upgrade to IE8 when you 
are not looking.

Virtualisation is the only real way to get an IE that matches what site 
visitors are using, meaning less fubar when debugging an issue. (I don't see 
the general public browsing with a MultipleIE browser).

Note you will need a Windows license for each virtualised Windows machine you 
use.

HTH
James

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:04:13 am Kristine Cummins wrote:
> I've recently downloaded IE8 and now my standalone IE7 refuses to work.
> Anyone else have this issue and have a better way to get IE to cooperate
> for Webmasters??? I downloaded the standalone at
> http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Kristine
>
>
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