inline elements inside - Was: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb

[David McDonald]

I've noticed in the code on Russ 'listopathic' page, that  and
other tags are inside  tags eg:


What is the obsession with lists?


I've seen this other places as well, but have always assumed that
block level elements inside  tags was invalid? Was I wrong here?

Anyone have the W3C reference for this sort of thing handy?

 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:14:51 +1000

>> er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
>> breadcrumb in a list? The usual > seperators seem ideal, and if
>you
>> disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
>> putting everything in a list?
>
>OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby intend to use
>lists
>for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and
>counter-productive:
>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/
>
>(view source)
>
>Russ
>
>**
>The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
>

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

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RE: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Jason Foss]

Shucks... Well perhaps a demi-god... ;-)

Glad I could help!

 
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 4:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

Jason, you are a God.

Thank you so much for coming up with this solution. Naming the UL has fixed
the issue completely.

I am in your debt.

Natalie ::))


On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:54:38 +1000, Jason Foss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Natalie, give this a try - it works for me. My containing div is 
> #navigation, and my ul is #nav
> 
> /*--- nav stuff -*/
> 
> #navigation {
> float:left;
> width:160px;
> }
> ul#nav {
> margin: 0;
> padding: 0;
> list-style: none;
> width: 150px; /* Width of Menu Items */
> border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc; } ul#nav li {
> position: relative;
> width: 150px;
> color: #777;
> background: #fff; /* IE6 Bug */
> padding: 5px;
> border: 1px solid #ccc; /* IE6 Bug */
> border-bottom: 0;
> }
> li ul {
> position: absolute;
> left: 120px; /* Set 1px less than menu width */
> top: 0;
> display: none;
> border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc; }
> /* Styles for Menu Items */
> ul#nav li a {
> display: block;
> text-decoration: none;
> color: #777;
> }
> 
> /* Holly Hack. IE Requirement \*/
> * html ul#nav li { float: left; height: 1%; }
> * html ul#nav li a { height: 1%; }
> /* End */
> 
> #nav a:hover {
> background-color:#99;
> }
> 
> li:hover ul, li.over ul { display: block; width:100%; } /* The magic 
> */
> 
> /* end nav stuff ---*/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> Jason Foss
> Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
> www.almost-anything.com.au
> Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
> Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
> Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost 
> anything!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> On Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 2:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> 
> Hi
> 
> I havent set the z-index of any other containers - I was testing to 
> see if adding one z-index would make a difference - which it didnt. I 
> could z-index all the divs though which could fix the transparency issue
perhaps?
> 
> Regarding re-naming the styles for the list items - I attempted this 
> in the sidebar/nav List but it broke the javascript and the list 
> itself. So instead I added classes to the other list items.
> 
> Obviously, its still the wrong method because doing either breaks 
> everything even further.
> 
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:17:35 +1000, Kevin Futter 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I interpreted this as a z-index issue too ... (but I didn't check 
> > the
> code).
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > On 21/10/04 1:48 PM, "Stephen Cheshire"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas 
> > > laoreet laoreet..."
> > >
> > > is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus 
> > > aren't transparent but simply behind the text?
> > >
> > > Steve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> > > Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > Im having big issues with a design Im working on.
> > >
> > > Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php
> > >
> > > The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you 
> > > go further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the 
> > > basic one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.
> > >
> > > issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my 
> > > bullets dissapear in the #content.
> > >
> > > This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work 
> > > out where the conflict is.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to your advice.
> > >
> > > Natalie
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgro

RE: [WSG] Suckerfish owning li & ul tags

[Jason Foss]

I just posted some code under the thread named "Broken Menus and Bullets"
that covers this issue. It's actually for the ALA Horizontal flyouts code,
but the theory is the same. Hopefully that will help!

Cheers
Jason

 
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Ross
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 4:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish owning li & ul tags

Hello folks,

I've used the infamous "Suckerfish" dropdown menu on a couple of sites and
have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul and li
tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone else had the
same problem and what is the best solution? I haven't tried son of
suckerfish yet - maybe that has the same issue??

Regards - PAUL
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] 256 colours or the whole enchilada?

[Neerav]

http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=and&format=short&config=wsg_webstandardsgroup_org&restrict=&exclude=&words=Web+safe+colours+-+still+relevent 
will answer our question

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Andreas Boehmer wrote:
Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits? 

I personally have stopped limiting myself a long time ago (unless
absolutely necessary), but keep coming across articles warning me from
doing so.
What's your thoughts?

Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant
Phone: (03) 9417 0468
Mobile: (0411) 097 038
http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Suckerfish owning li & ul tags

[Justin French]

On 21/10/2004, at 4:19 PM, Paul Ross wrote:
Hello folks,
I've used the infamous "Suckerfish" dropdown menu on a couple of sites
and have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul
and li tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone
else had the same problem and what is the best solution? I haven't
tried son of suckerfish yet - maybe that has the same issue??
Wrap the navigation in a div with an id like "nav" to act as a 
container, and change the suckerfish CSS selectors to reflect the 
container:

ul { /* all lists */
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
list-style: none;
}
...
li:hover ul, li.over ul { /* lists nested under hovered list items */
display: block;
}
becomes
#nav ul { /* all lists */
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
list-style: none;
}
#nav li:hover ul, #nav li.over ul { /* lists nested under hovered list 
items */
	display: block;
}

make sense?
Justin
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Re: [WSG] 256 colours or the whole enchilada?

[jake]

All the stats I can find (such as
http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm ) say that almost no one
browses in 8 bit any more, so I generally use what ever colours I want. If I
was making a site for mobile phones or something I'd probably try and stick to
the web safe palette though (at least for any big blocks of colour).

Jake

Quoting Andreas Boehmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you stick
> with them or do you go the full 16 bits?
>
> I personally have stopped limiting myself a long time ago (unless
> absolutely necessary), but keep coming across articles warning me from
> doing so.
>
> What's your thoughts?
>
>
>
> Andreas Boehmer
> User Experience Consultant
>
> Phone: (03) 9417 0468
> Mobile: (0411) 097 038
> http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
> Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>



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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Suckerfish owning li & ul tags

[Neerav]

Paul
Have a look at http://www.noltec.com.au/style.css, because all the son 
of suckerfish css is explicitly inside the #navmenu DIV the code has no 
effect on other lists within the same page

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Paul Ross wrote:
Hello folks,
I've used the infamous "Suckerfish" dropdown menu on a couple of sites
and have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul
and li tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone
else had the same problem and what is the best solution? I haven't
tried son of suckerfish yet - maybe that has the same issue??
Regards - PAUL
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:14:51 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote:
> http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/

Hey, Russ zeroed the margins and padding on the global element!

Lea
~ must.. adopt.. serious.. demeanour...
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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[WSG] 256 colours or the whole enchilada?

[Andreas Boehmer]

Out of curiosity: what's your stand to the 216 web colours? Do you stick
with them or do you go the full 16 bits? 

I personally have stopped limiting myself a long time ago (unless
absolutely necessary), but keep coming across articles warning me from
doing so.

What's your thoughts?



Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Phone: (03) 9417 0468
Mobile: (0411) 097 038
http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links

[Herrod, Lisa]

ahhh... I believe ladies and gents, that's what's known in the business as
an "Intervention". russ, just move towards the light...

-Original Message-
From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:15 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links


> er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
> breadcrumb in a list? The usual > seperators seem ideal, and if you
> disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
> putting everything in a list?

OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby intend to use lists
for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and counter-productive:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/

(view source)

Russ

**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Suckerfish owning li & ul tags

[Paul Ross]

Hello folks,

I've used the infamous "Suckerfish" dropdown menu on a couple of sites
and have come across one glaring issue. The suckerfish CSS owns the ul
and li tags so you can't style them anywhere else on the page. Anyone
else had the same problem and what is the best solution? I haven't
tried son of suckerfish yet - maybe that has the same issue??

Regards - PAUL
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links

[russ - maxdesign]

> er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a
> breadcrumb in a list? The usual > seperators seem ideal, and if you
> disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with
> putting everything in a list?

OK, I admit it... I am obsessed with lists and I hereby intend to use lists
for EVERYTHING from now on - even if pointless and counter-productive:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/list-obsessed/

(view source)

Russ

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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Natalie Buxton]

Jason, you are a God.

Thank you so much for coming up with this solution. Naming the UL has
fixed the issue completely.

I am in your debt.

Natalie ::))


On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:54:38 +1000, Jason Foss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Natalie, give this a try - it works for me. My containing div is
> #navigation, and my ul is #nav
> 
> /*--- nav stuff -*/
> 
> #navigation {
> float:left;
> width:160px;
> }
> ul#nav {
> margin: 0;
> padding: 0;
> list-style: none;
> width: 150px; /* Width of Menu Items */
> border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc;
> }
> ul#nav li {
> position: relative;
> width: 150px;
> color: #777;
> background: #fff; /* IE6 Bug */
> padding: 5px;
> border: 1px solid #ccc; /* IE6 Bug */
> border-bottom: 0;
> }
> li ul {
> position: absolute;
> left: 120px; /* Set 1px less than menu width */
> top: 0;
> display: none;
> border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc;
> }
> /* Styles for Menu Items */
> ul#nav li a {
> display: block;
> text-decoration: none;
> color: #777;
> }
> 
> /* Holly Hack. IE Requirement \*/
> * html ul#nav li { float: left; height: 1%; }
> * html ul#nav li a { height: 1%; }
> /* End */
> 
> #nav a:hover {
> background-color:#99;
> }
> 
> li:hover ul, li.over ul { display: block; width:100%; } /* The magic */
> 
> /* end nav stuff ---*/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> Jason Foss
> Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
> www.almost-anything.com.au
> Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
> Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
> Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
> We can do almost anything!
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 2:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> 
> Hi
> 
> I havent set the z-index of any other containers - I was testing to see if
> adding one z-index would make a difference - which it didnt. I could z-index
> all the divs though which could fix the transparency issue perhaps?
> 
> Regarding re-naming the styles for the list items - I attempted this in the
> sidebar/nav List but it broke the javascript and the list itself. So instead
> I added classes to the other list items.
> 
> Obviously, its still the wrong method because doing either breaks everything
> even further.
> 
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:17:35 +1000, Kevin Futter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I interpreted this as a z-index issue too ... (but I didn't check the
> code).
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > On 21/10/04 1:48 PM, "Stephen Cheshire"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas
> > > laoreet laoreet..."
> > >
> > > is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus
> > > aren't transparent but simply behind the text?
> > >
> > > Steve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> > > Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > Im having big issues with a design Im working on.
> > >
> > > Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php
> > >
> > > The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go
> > > further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic
> > > one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.
> > >
> > > issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my
> > > bullets dissapear in the #content.
> > >
> > > This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work
> > > out where the conflict is.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to your advice.
> > >
> > > Natalie
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


-- 
--
Freelance Website Designer/Developer
www.pixelkitty.net
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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Jason Foss]

Natalie, give this a try - it works for me. My containing div is
#navigation, and my ul is #nav

/*--- nav stuff -*/

#navigation {
float:left;
width:160px;
}
ul#nav {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
list-style: none;
width: 150px; /* Width of Menu Items */
border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc;
}
ul#nav li {
position: relative;
width: 150px;
color: #777;
background: #fff; /* IE6 Bug */
padding: 5px;
border: 1px solid #ccc; /* IE6 Bug */
border-bottom: 0;
}
li ul {
position: absolute;
left: 120px; /* Set 1px less than menu width */
top: 0;
display: none;
border-bottom: 1px solid #ccc;
}
/* Styles for Menu Items */
ul#nav li a {
display: block;
text-decoration: none;
color: #777;
}

/* Holly Hack. IE Requirement \*/
* html ul#nav li { float: left; height: 1%; }
* html ul#nav li a { height: 1%; }
/* End */

#nav a:hover {
background-color:#99;
}

li:hover ul, li.over ul { display: block; width:100%; } /* The magic */ 

/* end nav stuff ---*/
 


**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 2:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

Hi

I havent set the z-index of any other containers - I was testing to see if
adding one z-index would make a difference - which it didnt. I could z-index
all the divs though which could fix the transparency issue perhaps?

Regarding re-naming the styles for the list items - I attempted this in the
sidebar/nav List but it broke the javascript and the list itself. So instead
I added classes to the other list items.

Obviously, its still the wrong method because doing either breaks everything
even further.


On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:17:35 +1000, Kevin Futter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I interpreted this as a z-index issue too ... (but I didn't check the
code).
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On 21/10/04 1:48 PM, "Stephen Cheshire" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas 
> > laoreet laoreet..."
> >
> > is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus 
> > aren't transparent but simply behind the text?
> >
> > Steve.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> > Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> >
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Im having big issues with a design Im working on.
> >
> > Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php
> >
> > The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go 
> > further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic 
> > one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.
> >
> > issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my 
> > bullets dissapear in the #content.
> >
> > This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work 
> > out where the conflict is.
> >
> > Looking forward to your advice.
> >
> > Natalie
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Re: [WSG] Semantics of Breadcrumb "you are here" links

[Sean Naden]

er, maybe it's my 'listless' disposition but why would you put a  
breadcrumb in a list? The usual > seperators seem ideal, and if you  
disable styles it is still a breadcrumb; what is the obsession with  
putting everything in a list?

Sean
On 15/10/2004, at 9:43 PM, Gavin Cooney wrote:
Hi all,
Apologies if this has been asked on WSG before, but I was wondering
the general opinion on the most correct semantic way of coding
breadcrumb trails.
There's many webpages dealing with this:
http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2004/02/23/sqxii_conclusion.html
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf 
-8&q=semantic+breadcrumb

I've seen arguements for:
1.  list
2. Nested  list
Several lists nested (seems like a bit of a pain to me)

 Home
  
   Articles

 Title

   
  
 

3.  ordered list
I suppose if it's a list at all, it's an ordered list?
4.  definition list
such as used in this page http://www.baekdal.com/example.asp
(actually this is a good example of using s for everything)
At the moment i've been just putting them in a 
or  and putting a "/" or ">" etc between each
link. This is not perfect, i know.
So what do you think? How do you do your breadcrumbs?
Gav
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Re: [WSG] Looking for party animals

[Jeremy S. (WSG)]

I'm signed up for the one in
Winnipeg, MB, Canada! :D Hopefully more will sign up!

Joseph Lindsay wrote:

  And for the Kiwis (Wellington):

http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?party=172


On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:51:40 +1000, Nigel McFarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
Dear OSIA and WSG members,

If you happen to:

- like Mozilla or Firefox Web browsers

- enjoy social occasions

- reside in one of these places in Oz:
- Adelaide (or SA)
- Canberra
- Tassie
- Darwin

and possibly know how to book a casual evening event,
then could you please get fired up?

Firefox 1.0 is about to turn zero and we're trying to
organise something in every state and territory in
Australia in November.

Currently organised parties are advertised here:

http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?view=AU

C'mon, join in! (and maybe win a book)

thanks, Nigel.

--
-
Nigel McFarlane   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Services:   Analysis, Programming, Writing, Education
Expertise:Software, Telecommunications, Internet, Physics
"Rapid Application Development with Mozilla" / www.nigelmcfarlane.com

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Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Natalie Buxton]

Hi

I havent set the z-index of any other containers - I was testing to
see if adding one z-index would make a difference - which it didnt. I
could z-index all the divs though which could fix the transparency
issue perhaps?

Regarding re-naming the styles for the list items - I attempted this
in the sidebar/nav List but it broke the javascript and the list
itself. So instead I added classes to the other list items.

Obviously, its still the wrong method because doing either breaks
everything even further.


On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:17:35 +1000, Kevin Futter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I interpreted this as a z-index issue too ... (but I didn't check the code).
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On 21/10/04 1:48 PM, "Stephen Cheshire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas laoreet
> > laoreet..."
> >
> > is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus aren't
> > transparent but simply behind the text?
> >
> > Steve.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> > Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> >
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Im having big issues with a design Im working on.
> >
> > Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php
> >
> > The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go
> > further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic
> > one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.
> >
> > issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my
> > bullets dissapear in the #content.
> >
> > This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work out
> > where the conflict is.
> >
> > Looking forward to your advice.
> >
> > Natalie
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Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations

[Neerav]

Thats interesting, personally I like to be specific about the charset eg:
Chinese Traditional 
Taiwan, Hong Kong

Chinese Simplified
China mainland, Singapore and Malaysia  

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Francesco wrote:
The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively
Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!) -
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html

I read this entire article, then changed the first meta tag on a test
page to be:

then I went to the Chinese translation of Joel's page and cut and pasted
some Chinese characters into my html page, saved it, and loaded it in IE
expecting to see Chinese side by side to my English text.  Nope.  Still
gibberish.  What did I do wrong?
Francesco Sanfilippo, Internet Developer
---
Blackcoil Productions - http://blackcoil.com
URL123 Link Service - http://url123.com
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Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations

[Francesco]

> > The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively
> > Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!) -
> > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html
> >


I read this entire article, then changed the first meta tag on a test
page to be:



then I went to the Chinese translation of Joel's page and cut and pasted
some Chinese characters into my html page, saved it, and loaded it in IE
expecting to see Chinese side by side to my English text.  Nope.  Still
gibberish.  What did I do wrong?

Francesco Sanfilippo, Internet Developer
---
Blackcoil Productions - http://blackcoil.com
URL123 Link Service - http://url123.com

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Re: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Kevin Futter]

I interpreted this as a z-index issue too ... (but I didn't check the code).

Kevin


On 21/10/04 1:48 PM, "Stephen Cheshire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas laoreet
> laoreet..."
> 
> is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus aren't
> transparent but simply behind the text?
> 
> Steve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
> Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> Im having big issues with a design Im working on.
> 
> Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php
> 
> The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go
> further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic
> one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.
> 
> issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my
> bullets dissapear in the #content.
> 
> This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work out
> where the conflict is.
> 
> Looking forward to your advice.
> 
> Natalie
> **
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
> 
> 
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> 
> 



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Re: [WSG] Looking for party animals

[Kay Smoljak]

Don't forget to sign up if you're in Perth too!

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:51:40 +1000, Nigel McFarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?view=AU

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Jason Foss]

For a start, you have identified your nav list as id="nav", and it's sitting
inside a container id="sidebar" - use those in your menu.css file otherwise
what you do with this styling will apply to all your lists unless stated
otherwise.

When I'm using these I would say :

#sidebar ul {
margin: 0 0 0 12px;
padding: 0;
list-style:disc outside;
color:#fff;
width: 163px; /* Width of Menu Items */
font-size:0.7em;
} 

instead of :

ul {
margin: 0 0 0 12px;
padding: 0;
list-style:disc outside;
color:#fff;
width: 163px; /* Width of Menu Items */
font-size:0.7em;
}

That might help - go thru your menu.css and be more specific with
identifying which list elements you're referring to...

 
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

Hi All

Im having big issues with a design Im working on.

Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php

The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go further
down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic one from ALA's
horizontal drop down example.

issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my bullets
dissapear in the #content.

This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work out where
the conflict is.

Looking forward to your advice.

Natalie
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RE: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Stephen Cheshire]

What's the z-index of the block of text starting with "Maecenas laoreet
laoreet..."

is it greater than the submenus? Because I'm thinking the menus aren't
transparent but simply behind the text?

Steve.




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
Sent: Thursday, 21 October 2004 1:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets


Hi All

Im having big issues with a design Im working on.

Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php

The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go
further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic
one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.

issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my
bullets dissapear in the #content.

This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work out
where the conflict is.

Looking forward to your advice.

Natalie
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[WSG] Broken Menus and Bullets

[Natalie Buxton]

Hi All

Im having big issues with a design Im working on.

Example live: http://pixelkitty.net/devel/wsg/whirl.php

The left Menu is broken in both Mozilla and IE on Windows. As you go
further down, the menu items are transparent. The menu is the basic
one from ALA's horizontal drop down example.

issue two is that when the menu is included in the #sidebar , my
bullets dissapear in the #content.

This issue is driving me completely insane and I just cannot work out
where the conflict is.

Looking forward to your advice.

Natalie
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RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations

[Jason Foss]

Yes - that *does* help!

I was wondering how I was going to copy and paste from Word - how that was
going to work. But I'm assuming if the Word doc is supplied in Unicode then
that solves the problem. 

Cheers!

 
**
Jason Foss
Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
www.almost-anything.com.au
Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701
We can do almost anything!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stephen Cheshire
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 1:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations

Hi everyone, I'm new to this group and this is my first post.

I'd like to re-iterate a previously mentioned comment as I think it's
extremely important:

it may seem obvious, but in the experience I have had, the word docs
supplied by your translation company must use the Unicode font too. I would
specify this as a major requirement to the translation company. The company
that did my translations used a third party font (not Unicode) which turned
the job into a costly nightmare.

Hope this helps!

Steve.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Frederic Fery
Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 12:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations


Hi Jason
I have similar requirement for some of my sites here at the Uni of
technology Sydney

is it indiscrete to ask you about the ball park those 2 companies gave you?
offlist?

do they charge per page per language?

regards
Frederic
On 20/10/2004, at 12:30 PM, Jason Foss wrote:

> We've approached On-Call Interpreters in Melbourne and Precision 
> Languages in Sydney. Both quotes came back in the same ballpark, and 
> it's not a huge amount of text so the cost is not prohibitive.
>
> Thanks also for that link Roger - seeing it in action helps a lot. (I 
> think... If only I could read Chinese!)
>
> BTW - what makes you think the image thing was a joke? :o)
>
> Cheers
>
> **
> Jason Foss
> Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
> www.almost-anything.com.au
> Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
> Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
> Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost 
> anything!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 11:26 AM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Foreign Translations
>
> Jason,
>
> I worked on a site a while ago that required translation into 14 
> different languages. It was an education based portal that contained a 
> lot of text.
> One of the issues we encountered was when documents were translated in 
> a word document and then supplied to the development team to transfer 
> into a HTML doc.
>
> It might seem like an obvious problem now, but at the time it was one 
> of the things that got us. this site had hundreds of pages of text to 
> translate though. Yours might be a bit different.
>
> Incidentally, do you mind telling me which translation agencies you've 
> approached? I have worked for quite a few of them in sydney and am 
> just a bit curious :)
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Lisa
>
> ps haha funny joke about using a big image! :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jason Foss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:10 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Foreign Translations
>
>
> Greetings!
>
> I have a client who wants part of their website translated into a few 
> other languages, some of them Asian (Chinese & Korean are a couple). I 
> have obtained a couple of quotes from translation agencies to actually 
> do the translations, but does anyone have experience with actually 
> implementing this sort of thing in a website?
>
> The easy way is to make an image out of the translation and pop that 
> there - but I don't want to do that for obvious reasons!!! I'm reading 
> a bit about character sets and encoding, but it's all a bit abstract 
> at this point. Any experiences or how-to references would be much 
> appreciated!
>
> Ta
> Jason
>
> **
> Jason Foss
> Almost Anything Desktop Publishing
> www.almost-anything.com.au
> Telephone: (07) 4927 8033
> Facsimile: (07) 4927 5312
> Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 9 Unmack Street, North Rockhampton, Queensland 4701 We can do almost 
> anything!
>
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & g

Re: [WSG] CSS - How the max size of a .css file

[Kay Smoljak]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:36:20 -0200, Genau Junior <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would like to know, how is the max size of a .css file for a website with
> a plenty of functionalities and different style pages. 

Try running a few sites through
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ - the analyzer
gives specific recommended sizes for each component of a page (css,
js, html, images), and reasons for each too.

Another useful tool that reports on similar aspects is
http://www.sitereportcard.com/

Cheers,
K.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] CSS - How the max size of a .css file

[Dave Rayner]

I have yet to crack 10K for a css

Average around 6-8K (and we use CSS for nearly everything)

So unless I'm missing something, 30K seems really big. 


dave rayner
freshweb
www.freshweb.com.au
m. 0409 037 250
p. +61 2 89202344
f. +61 2 89203008 
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Re: [WSG] CSS - How the max size of a .css file

[Hugh Todd]

Genau,
I would say that the old rule of thumb still applies... that to be 
polite to all users of your site, including those on slower dial-up 
connections, your *total* data size for a page (css + html + images) 
should be no larger than 30KB.

You need to take into account, too, the images called on by your CSS, 
which add to the data load.

Having said this, though, one of the beauties of CSS is that it is 
cached by the browser (along with any displayed images), so if you 
think you can get away with requiring people to wait for an initial 
page, subsequent pages will be a lot faster.

-Hugh Todd
I would like to know, how is the max size of a .css file for a website 
with a plenty of functionalities and different style pages.
I know that this is a hard question, but some people may have a 
different poit of view about an accetable size for loading a .css 
file.
 
30kb , for example, is a accetable css file size?
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Re: [WSG] CSS - How the max size of a .css file

[Mordechai Peller]

Genau Junior wrote:
I would like to know, how is the max size of a .css file for a website...
 
30kb , for example, is a accetable css file size?
While I don't have a technical answer to your question, I suspect it 
will vary from one browser to the next. From a practical standpoint, 
however, if your CSS file is more than a few K it's too big and probably 
should be broken up into more than one file. For example, a general one 
for a site and a second one for each section. CSS is suppose to reduce 
bloat--not add to it.
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[WSG] CSS - How the max size of a .css file

[Genau Junior]

I would like to know, how is the max size of a .css 
file for a website with a plenty of functionalities and different style 
pages.
I know that this is a hard question, but some 
people may have a different poit of view about an accetable size for loading a 
.css file.
 
30kb , for example, is a accetable css file 
size?
 
 
 
Genau Lopes Júnior

Re: [WSG] Looking for party animals

[Joseph Lindsay]

And for the Kiwis (Wellington):

http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?party=172


On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:51:40 +1000, Nigel McFarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Dear OSIA and WSG members,
> 
> If you happen to:
> 
> - like Mozilla or Firefox Web browsers
> 
> - enjoy social occasions
> 
> - reside in one of these places in Oz:
> - Adelaide (or SA)
> - Canberra
> - Tassie
> - Darwin
> 
> and possibly know how to book a casual evening event,
> then could you please get fired up?
> 
> Firefox 1.0 is about to turn zero and we're trying to
> organise something in every state and territory in
> Australia in November.
> 
> Currently organised parties are advertised here:
> 
> http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?view=AU
> 
> C'mon, join in! (and maybe win a book)
> 
> thanks, Nigel.
> 
> --
> -
> Nigel McFarlane   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Services:   Analysis, Programming, Writing, Education
> Expertise:Software, Telecommunications, Internet, Physics
> "Rapid Application Development with Mozilla" / www.nigelmcfarlane.com
> 
> **
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
> 
> 


-- 
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[WSG] Looking for party animals

[Nigel McFarlane]

Dear OSIA and WSG members,
If you happen to:
- like Mozilla or Firefox Web browsers
- enjoy social occasions
- reside in one of these places in Oz:
   - Adelaide (or SA)
   - Canberra
   - Tassie
   - Darwin
and possibly know how to book a casual evening event,
then could you please get fired up?
Firefox 1.0 is about to turn zero and we're trying to
organise something in every state and territory in
Australia in November.
Currently organised parties are advertised here:
http://www.openforce.at/mozparty2/?view=AU
C'mon, join in! (and maybe win a book)
thanks, Nigel.
--
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Nigel McFarlane   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Floatutorial form positioning trouble

[Mordechai Peller]

Adam Carmichael wrote:
I'm having some trouble with the (near idiot proof) 2 column
Floatutorial. I have a form I'm building at: 
http://demo.home.carneeki.net


This behaviour is only apparent in IE.
The HTML and CSS have passed validation. 
Since it's only "near idiot prof," and idiot can still break it. Fear 
not, I'm not referring to you, but to IE's wonderful float model and 
hasLayout flag.

Try:
/*  Hide from IE/Mac \*/
* html #content {height : 1%;}
/* End hide */
Otherwise, it looks good. Here's a suggestion, though, which I think 
would improve usability slightly:

form label {
  text-align : right;
  padding-right : .5em;
  width : 40%;
}
Another suggestion I  have is to rename .underline and #leftnav to less 
presentational, more semantic names. For example, .underline could be 
.accesskey and #leftnav could be be #instructions.

HTH
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[WSG] Floatutorial form positioning trouble

[Adam Carmichael]

Hi list,
I'm having some trouble with the (near idiot proof) 2 column
Floatutorial. I have a form I'm building at: http://demo.home.carneeki.net
Whenever I add a  tag (well actually I think it is any block level
element as I had the same results with a ) to #leftnav, the top of
the form is pushed down to the where the bottom of the paragraph tag is.
 element inside #content seem unaffected, just the  element.
This behaviour is only apparent in IE.
The HTML and CSS have passed validation.
Thanks in advance,
Adam
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