Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Neerav]

John
People use that method to try and stop people copying source code. 
Unfortunately there really is no reliable way of doing so because:

1. the page is usually cached by the browser and you can get the source 
code from there

2. browsers can be set to disable javascript to get around these kinds 
of right-click disabling scripts

Basically, since HTML is interpreted by user agents (browsers etc) and 
not compiled, its next to impossible to stop people copying content/code

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
John Horner wrote:
the page:  http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

Can I raise a quick issue -- I noticed when I went to that page and 
right-clicked on it... a JavaScript alert came up to say that the page 
was copyright, and, as far as I could tell, stopped me from doing "view 
source" via the context menu -- what's the reason for that?

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/
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Re: [WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)

[Jan Brasna]

I notice that IE6 with service pack 2 installed
initially blocks the JavaScript that makes the li hover sections drop
It's only when browsing local files.
--
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Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Basically it is this: 

This technique uses negative margins too, but does not require 
structural hacks for "clearing", and I believe it has better browsers
 support: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/challenge/3cols/
Yes, that's another variant that'll work just fine. I made one based on
the same idea back in may/june 2004, but Gecko-browsers wasn't
"clearing" too well then: 
Browser-support shouldn't be a problem with either, as long as the old
browsers are left out. Opera, Safari, Firefox & IE6 are doing fine even
with my old pages -- now.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[John Horner]

the page:  http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.
Can I raise a quick issue -- I noticed when I went to that page and 
right-clicked on it... a JavaScript alert came up to say that the 
page was copyright, and, as far as I could tell, stopped me from 
doing "view source" via the context menu -- what's the reason for 
that?

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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[WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)

[Paul Ross]

Hello folks,

Anyone else having issues with the suckerfish (and son of suckerfish)
menu in IE6 SP2? I've been trawling through the archives and can't see
a post on this issue. I notice that IE6 with service pack 2 installed
initially blocks the JavaScript that makes the li hover sections drop
down/across - so you only see the home navlinks and nothing happens on
rollover. You have to click on the message saying IE has blocked the
script and then agree to have the code run in the browser. This didn't
happen with SP1. Painful :/

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Lachlan Hardy]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Well, it seems that styling the actual form elements is the way to 
go, and
> certainly appears to be ideal for simple forms.

I use FIELDSET, FORM etc as per other people's suggestions above, but my 
personal favourite is wrapping the relevant form field inside the LABEL 
element. Makes styling seriously easy

An invaluable reference is Cameron Adams's
Accessible, Stylish Form Layout: 
http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/
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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Leslie Riggs]

Thanks to all - the hosting provider confirmed that the web server was 
incorrectly configured; it's an older one.  The site will go live on a 
newer, properly configured server.

I can now sleep happythanks again, everyone.
Leslie Riggs
scott parsons wrote:
The easy answer is that your server is configured incorrectly.
Your stylesheet is being served as text/plain, and not text/css
thus some browsers are not treating it as a style sheet..

i just did a quick test, copying leslie's code and css and loaded it 
on my server - and it was "read" by mozilla and firefox.  I wasn't 
even going to say anything because I was so mystified by it - but your 
answer explains it, Scott.   Some days I find these "mysteries" rather 
"fun"; other days  I dunno.

best
Donna
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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[tee]

Thank you everyone! The conflict solved after I change it to class.

> your english is great. even those of us that grew up on the language
> abuse it with regularity.

Diona, I was just being lame ;) Once I get myself comfortable in this list,
I probably will make no apology for my English lol.
> my only confusion comes from perhaps the 'persistent page indicator'.
> i'm not sure how this second definition is only triggered when a user
> visits the home page...irregardless, when the page loads, the css
> element definition loads and this is defining an element twice. this
> would be fine were it a 'class' element as opposed to an 'id' because a
> 'class' can be defined numerous times. however, an 'id' can only be
> defined once according to spec. here you're defining it twice.
I learned  'persistent page indicator' from here:
http://nemesis-project.net/aarchive.html_id=9.html

It's something similar to the link Jachin provided:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200503/setting_the_current_menu_state_
with_css/


Tee

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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Donna Jones]

scott parsons wrote:
The easy answer is that your server is configured incorrectly.
Your stylesheet is being served as text/plain, and not text/css
thus some browsers are not treating it as a style sheet..
i just did a quick test, copying leslie's code and css and loaded it on 
my server - and it was "read" by mozilla and firefox.  I wasn't even 
going to say anything because I was so mystified by it - but your answer 
explains it, Scott.   Some days I find these "mysteries" rather "fun"; 
other days  I dunno.

best
Donna
Leslie Riggs wrote:
In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers 
see the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.
Leslie Riggs
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--
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West End Webs  772-0266
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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Leslie Riggs]

Thanks, Michael,
Where do I find that information, so I can back up the assertion when I 
talk with the hosting provider?

Thank you!
Leslie Riggs
This is because your webserver is outputting: 
Content-Type: text/plain 
and not: 
Content-Type: text/css
For your CSS file.

IE doesn't care, but most other stuff does. Nothing wrong with your CSS. It is 
a web server configuration problem.
- Original Message -
From: Leslie Riggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tue,  5 Apr 2005 14:35:12 +1000
Subject: [WSG] Really strange results
 

In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers see 
the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.
Leslie Riggs
   

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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[scott parsons]

The easy answer is that your server is configured incorrectly.
Your stylesheet is being served as text/plain, and not text/css
thus some browsers are not treating it as a style sheet..
s
Leslie Riggs wrote:
In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers 
see the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.
Leslie Riggs
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] Really strange results

[Ben Wrighton]

Hi Lesley,

Have you tried an absolute path for the style sheet href property?

Regards,

> Ben

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Leslie Riggs
Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 4:35 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Really strange results


In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.

I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers see 
the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.

This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.

Leslie Riggs

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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Michael Dale]

This is because your webserver is outputting: 
Content-Type: text/plain 
and not: 
Content-Type: text/css
For your CSS file.

IE doesn't care, but most other stuff does. Nothing wrong with your CSS. It is 
a web server configuration problem.

- Original Message -
From: Leslie Riggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tue,  5 Apr 2005 14:35:12 +1000
Subject: [WSG] Really strange results


> In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
> Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
> Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.
> 
> Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
> 
> I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers see 
> the stylesheet, while others don't?
> 
> The link to the page:  
> http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.
> 
> CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
> 
> This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
> can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Leslie Riggs
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] Really strange results

[Bert Doorn]

G'day
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers see 
the stylesheet, while others don't?
The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

Try making that "stylesheet" (all lower case) and see if it makes 
a difference.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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[WSG] Really strange results

[Leslie Riggs]

In some browsers, the test page I have put up renders fine: namely, IE 
Mac, Safari on Mac, IE6 on PC.  However, Firefox, Opera, Mozilla and 
Netscape don't seem to see the stylesheet.

Both HTML and CSS validated fine through the W3C site.
I am really having a difficult time understanding why some browsers see 
the stylesheet, while others don't?

The link to the page:  
http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/indexx.html.

CSS is at http://www.deafvision.net/projects/btw/revised/css/btwnewx.css.
This is the first time I've encountered this situation, so anyone who 
can point me in the right direction, I would be very much obliged.

Thanks.
Leslie Riggs
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[WSG] {Spam?} css type glich

[Kvnmcwebn]

hi everyone,

Im having a problem with type getting croped-

The bottom few pixels of some ascenders - like on g - are being chopped off.

This is happening on ie5mac and netscape 6mac, havnt tested it on the pc
yet. I'm using these attributes for my paragraph text.

---
p { width: 245px; text-align: left; font-family: futura, avante garde,
Century Gothic, Gautami, verdana, helvetica, helve, arial, sans serif;
font-size: 10px; color: #00; line-height: 1.9em;
letter-spacing: .5px;
} 
--


has anyone ever run across this?


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Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

[Thierry Koblentz]

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
> A simple float-design with a little bit of AP, can be as fluid as one
> may like it. How about 3-column floats?
> 

> Basically it is this:
> 

This technique uses negative margins too, but does not require structural
hacks for "clearing", and I believe it has better browsers support:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/challenge/3cols/

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[diona kidd]

tee, 

your english is great. even those of us that grew up on the language
abuse it with regularity. 

my only confusion comes from perhaps the 'persistent page indicator'.
i'm not sure how this second definition is only triggered when a user
visits the home page...irregardless, when the page loads, the css
element definition loads and this is defining an element twice. this
would be fine were it a 'class' element as opposed to an 'id' because a
'class' can be defined numerous times. however, an 'id' can only be
defined once according to spec. here you're defining it twice. 

try switching to 'class' instead to solve the issue. 

diona


On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 20:16 -0700, tee wrote:
> > It looks like you're defining the same element twice, but in a different
> > way and with a different background image. To me this makes sense why
> > this would conflict.
> 
> There are 8 buttons in the menu and each button with unique ID because each
> button is different.
>  
> > #siteOption li a#home { background: url(images/h_gb.gif) no-repeat; }
> > 
> This image is for the home button. But there are another 7 that have to
> displayed within the same page as well.
> > 
> > body#homepage li#home a { background: url(images/hhover_gb.gif) no-
> > repeat;  }
> And this is for persistent page indicator, which is the same button as home
> button hover class. So it will only trigger when viewer visits the 'home
> page'. 
> 
> Does this make sense?  Sorry I know often time my English confuses people.
> 
> tee
> > Which image are you trying to use for the bg of the href?
> > 
> > Diona
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:37 -0700, tee wrote:
> >> Hi, 
> >> 
> >> I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
> >> menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
> >> indicator. 
> >> 
> >> Before  persisten page indicator:
> >> <.li>
> >> 
> >> After page indicator:
> >>  <.li id="home"> >>> 
> >> 
> >> If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.
> >> 
> >> Now my page no longer validated.
> >> 
> >> http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> >> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> >> 
> >> How can I solve this?
> >> 
> >> Thanks!
> >> 
> >> tee
> >> 
> >> **
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> >> 
> >>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> >> **
> >> 
> > 
> > **
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> > 
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> > 
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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[Paul Novitski]

At 07:37 PM 4/4/2005, tee wrote:
I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
indicator.
Before  persisten page indicator:
<.li>
After page indicator:
 <.li id="home">
If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.
Now my page no longer validated.
http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
How can I solve this?

Tee,
The validation error is caused by this line in your HTML markup, in which 
id="home" occurs twice, first in the LI tag and then in the A tag:


An ID must be unique on the page.
Cheers,Paul 

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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[tee]

> It looks like you're defining the same element twice, but in a different
> way and with a different background image. To me this makes sense why
> this would conflict.

There are 8 buttons in the menu and each button with unique ID because each
button is different.
 
> #siteOption li a#home { background: url(images/h_gb.gif) no-repeat; }
> 
This image is for the home button. But there are another 7 that have to
displayed within the same page as well.
> 
> body#homepage li#home a { background: url(images/hhover_gb.gif) no-
> repeat;  }
And this is for persistent page indicator, which is the same button as home
button hover class. So it will only trigger when viewer visits the 'home
page'. 

Does this make sense?  Sorry I know often time my English confuses people.

tee
> Which image are you trying to use for the bg of the href?
> 
> Diona
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:37 -0700, tee wrote:
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
>> menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
>> indicator. 
>> 
>> Before  persisten page indicator:
>> <.li>
>> 
>> After page indicator:
>>  <.li id="home">>> 
>> 
>> If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.
>> 
>> Now my page no longer validated.
>> 
>> http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
>> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
>> 
>> How can I solve this?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> tee
>> 
>> **
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>> 
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>>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[diona kidd]

It looks like you're defining the same element twice, but in a different
way and with a different background image. To me this makes sense why
this would conflict. 

#siteOption li a#home { background: url(images/h_gb.gif) no-repeat; } 

vs. 

body#homepage li#home a { background: url(images/hhover_gb.gif) no-
repeat;  }

Which image are you trying to use for the bg of the href? 

Diona


On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:37 -0700, tee wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
> menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
> indicator. 
> 
> Before  persisten page indicator:
> <.li>
> 
> After page indicator:
>  <.li id="home"> >
> 
> If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.
> 
> Now my page no longer validated.
> 
> http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> 
> How can I solve this?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> tee
> 
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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[standards]

Well, it seems that styling the actual form elements is the way to go, and
certainly appears to be ideal for simple forms.

Thank you Chris, Bert and Darren for the quick response, advice and links!

Yours respectfully,
Mario


> G'day
>
>> I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
>> table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data
>> fields. I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I
>> wondered if there's a consensus as to which method is more
>> semantically correct?
>
> Not sure about consensus, but I use labels with the form elements  and
> style the labels to float left with a fixed width these days.
>   No tables or definition lists needed.  Use fieldset to group
> form elements.
>
> There is however some consensus about using tables for layout.
>
> There's also a "small" matter of accessibility...  A quick scan
> of the webstandardsgroup.org resources section shows this link:
>
> http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/accessible-forms-1.shtml
>
> Regards
> --
> Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
> http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
> Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
>
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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[Dmitry Baranovskiy]

Hi Tee,
ID should be unique. That's it. Change IDs to be diferent or use classes instead

On Apr 5, 2005 12:37 PM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
> menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
> indicator.
> 
> Before  persisten page indicator:
> <.li>
> 
> After page indicator:
>  <.li id="home"> >
> 
> If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.
> 
> Now my page no longer validated.
> 
> http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> 
> How can I solve this?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> tee
> 
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> 
> 


-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Richard Czeiger]

How about plain old form elements?
Example:


form { font: 65%/1.2 verdana, sans-serif; margin-bottom: 3em; }
fieldset { margin-bottom: 0.3em; border: none; }
label { width: 160px; }
label.radio { width: auto; }
input, select, textarea { font-family: verdana; font-size: 1.0em;
_background: none !important; }
select { width: 152px; }
.hiddenFields { display: none; }




  
First Name

  

  
Last Name

  

  
Email Address

  

  
How Did You Find Us?

  Please select ...
  A Friend Told You About Us
  Poster
  Flyer
  Google
  Other Search Engine
  Television Ad
  Radio
  Newspaper
  Other

  

  
Comments

  

  

  




Richard   :o)

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: [WSG] Styling Forms


Good evening all,

I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.

I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?

Please advise...

Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] ID conflicts

[Jachin Sheehy]

You cannot reuse IDs within a document. Each ID must have a unique value.

Have a look at 
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200503/setting_the_current_menu_state_with_css/
It has a good example of what you are trying to achieve.

Regards,
Jachin Sheehy
Senior Web Developer
InternetFiji.com

On Apr 5, 2005 2:37 PM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
> menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
> indicator.
> 
> Now my page no longer validated.
> 
> http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> 
> How can I solve this?
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RE: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Focas, Grant]

If you use label elements around your text then you can simply do this:
HTML:
First Name

CSS:
form p{
clear:both;
}
form p label{
float:left;
width:30%;
}

Grant


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Darren Wood
Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 12:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling Forms


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Good evening all,
> 
> I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
> table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.
> 
> I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
> there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?
> 
> Please advise...
> 

There's a simple question I ask myself before I decide whether something 
goes in a table or not, and that question is:
Is it tabular data?

In this case I'd have to say that a form is _not_ tabular data.  Its 
form data, and thus I'd try to make use of the tags designed to deal 
with forms:







Hope that helps
Darren
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**
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Bert Doorn]

G'day
I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.
I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?
Not sure about consensus, but I use labels with the form elements 
and style the labels to float left with a fixed width these days. 
 No tables or definition lists needed.  Use fieldset to group 
form elements.

There is however some consensus about using tables for layout.
There's also a "small" matter of accessibility...  A quick scan 
of the webstandardsgroup.org resources section shows this link:

http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/accessible-forms-1.shtml
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Darren Wood]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Good evening all,
I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.
I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?
Please advise...
There's a simple question I ask myself before I decide whether something 
goes in a table or not, and that question is:
Is it tabular data?

In this case I'd have to say that a form is _not_ tabular data.  Its 
form data, and thus I'd try to make use of the tags designed to deal 
with forms:







Hope that helps
Darren
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[WSG] ID conflicts

[tee]

Hi, 

I have a menu in my site that I use class ID for each link with different
menu button. It was validated until I added body#ID for persistent page
indicator. 

Before  persisten page indicator:
<.li>

After page indicator:
 <.li id="home">

If I remove the ID in the a href, my button disappears.

Now my page no longer validated.

http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html

How can I solve this?

Thanks!

tee

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Re: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Chris Blown]

I'd be pointing you towards styling  and  elements
rather than using  or 

Good examples
http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/InForm/

Cheers
Chris

On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Good evening all,
> 
> I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
> table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.
> 
> I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
> there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?
> 
> Please advise...
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mario S. Cisneros
> 
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] DTD syntax [WAS] Opening links in new window with XHTML

[Chris Stratford]

Hey Chris,
Not too sure on this.
I just emulated the real strict DTD - but made it version 1.01 - :)
Chris Bentley wrote:
Chris Stratford wrote:
 You can use this DTD:
http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd";>
 I made it myself from a tutorial.
 It is XHTML 1.0 Strict.

Are you sure that the Formal Public Identifier part of the DTD can  
really look like that? I thought that FPIs had a formal syntax which  
took the form:

"[ISO Registration]//[Organisation]//[Class] [Description]//[Language]"
Where..
[ISO Registration] of the resource as indicated by either a plus or  
minus sign.
[Organisation] is a unique identifier of the owner of the resource.
[Class] is a keyword identifying the type of object being referenced.
[Description] is a unique descriptive name for the resource being  
referenced. and lastly
The ISO language code for the language of the markup defined by the  
resource. (ie what natural language is used in the tags)

eg.,
http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd";>
Also there are some specific naming rules for FPIs have to meet to  
conform with XHTMLMOD
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ 
conformance.html#s_conform_naming_rules


Cheers,
Chris.

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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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[WSG] Styling Forms

[standards]

Good evening all,

I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a
table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields.

I have a simple form on a client's "Contact Us" page, and I wondered if
there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct?

Please advise...

Kind regards,
Mario S. Cisneros


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Re: [WSG] Captioning images - to DL or not to DL

[Sigurd Magnusson]

Sure
I've never heard myself of using DL/DT/DD for this sort of thing, although 
instinctively it seems quite an appropriate use.

My question relates to what sort of problems you have encountered with 
widths; I would have thought the following would pose no problems:



Here is wonderful example of a Australian Landmark


You would simply be meddling with padding, margins and borders on the 
elements; the width remains attached to the image itself, as this is 
appropriate even with XHTML 1.1.

I presume you know you can easily float the dl left or right, rather than 
use "align=right" on the  element.

Siggy
I was wondering what the best solution was for captioning images where
you
have a number of differently sized images on a page.
Is using a definition list the best way to do this and the most
semantically correct?  Are there better ways?
The biggest problem I have found is having to set the width of the dl
when
all the images are of a different size.
Thanks
Helen 
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[WSG] help with IE 3-pixel bug

[Gallagher, Robin]

This fixed it:

#rightColumn
{
float: right;
width: 200px;
background-image: url(background.jpg);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 500px;
}
* html #rightColumn
{
width: 202px;
margin-left: -2px;
}

* html hid the IE fix from other browsers

Thanks Gunlaug & Chris

> Robin Gallagher
> 
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Re: [WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?

[Sigurd Magnusson]

The number of rows and columns of a textarea in no way constrains the 
amount of text that can be entered, it only affect the appearance of the 
input area on the screen.
I agree it doesn't technically constrain the user, but it does instruct a 
user how much they are expected to write. As power users, we would both know 
we could type in any quantity of text, however casual users will expect the 
amount of text they write in has a relationship with the size of the text 
area. A blind reader, a search engine, a lynx browser, and so on, can more 
easily interpret the intended use of a text area with cols/rows.


but the apparent size of the input field is wholly determined by CSS 
width.
Not wholly--XHTML 1.1 continues to have the size attribute for the input 
element, and this is akin to cols for the textarea.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_extformsmodule

We can only surmise that W3C had people touting both opinions, and this 
shows a comprimise?

This matter might be better dealt with in XForms or other forthcoming form 
standards.

Siggy

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Novitski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?


At 03:00 PM 4/4/2005, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
It could be argued that it is more than presentation. It indicates to the 
user about the quantity or usage of the textarea; the size of text fields 
is a usability topic. If you were told to write a "Summary of your 
proposal", and given 8 lines instead of 2 lines, you would probably write 
a completely different passage of text.

Perhaps, but that seems very obviously a presentational aspect to me.  The 
number of rows and columns of a textarea in no way constrains the amount 
of text that can be entered, it only affect the appearance of the input 
area on the screen.

< input type="text" /> fields have the optional maxlength attribute to 
constrain the length of input, but the apparent size of the input field is 
wholly determined by CSS width.  The W3C leaves it completely up to you if 
you style an input field with {width: 1px;} but maxlength="64000" and it 
surprises me that they make an exception with textarea.

Presumably, when they deprecated the width attribute for input but kept 
maxlength, they fervently wished they could do the same for textarea but 
couldn't, since textarea wasn't born with a maxlength and they probably 
didn't deem it wise to tack one on.  I wouldn't be surprised if this 
detail generated considerable debate, although I can't find any reference 
to the decision-making process on their site.

Regards,
Paul
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[WSG] Captioning images - to DL or not to DL

[Helen . Rysavy]

Hi

I was wondering what the best solution was for captioning images where you
have a number of differently sized images on a page.

Is using a definition list the best way to do this and the most
semantically correct?  Are there better ways?

The biggest problem I have found is having to set the width of the dl when
all the images are of a different size.

Thanks
Helen

***
Helen Rysavy
Web Designer, Teaching & Learning Development
Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909
Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cdu.edu.au
CRICOS Provider No: 00300K
***


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Re: [WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?

[Paul Novitski]

At 03:00 PM 4/4/2005, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
It could be argued that it is more than presentation. It indicates to the 
user about the quantity or usage of the textarea; the size of text fields 
is a usability topic. If you were told to write a "Summary of your 
proposal", and given 8 lines instead of 2 lines, you would probably write 
a completely different passage of text.

Perhaps, but that seems very obviously a presentational aspect to me.  The 
number of rows and columns of a textarea in no way constrains the amount of 
text that can be entered, it only affect the appearance of the input area 
on the screen.

< input type="text" /> fields have the optional maxlength attribute to 
constrain the length of input, but the apparent size of the input field is 
wholly determined by CSS width.  The W3C leaves it completely up to you if 
you style an input field with {width: 1px;} but maxlength="64000" and it 
surprises me that they make an exception with textarea.

Presumably, when they deprecated the width attribute for input but kept 
maxlength, they fervently wished they could do the same for textarea but 
couldn't, since textarea wasn't born with a maxlength and they probably 
didn't deem it wise to tack one on.  I wouldn't be surprised if this detail 
generated considerable debate, although I can't find any reference to the 
decision-making process on their site.

Regards,
Paul 

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Re: [WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?

[Sigurd Magnusson]

It could be argued that it is more than 
presentation. It indicates to the user about the quantity or usage of the 
textarea; the size of text fields is a usability topic. If you were told to 
write a "Summary of your proposal", and given 8 lines instead of 2 lines, you 
would probably write a completely different passage of text. 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Alan 
  Trick 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:15 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] textarea rows & 
  cols - presentation in xhtml?
  I've wondered about this one as well, my guess is that
  1. they figured the attributes were to important to drop in the 
event of non-css user agents,or more likely
  2. they didn't change it because xhtml1.x was really not much 
more than a reformulation of html into xml.  To get real xhtml we will 
have to wait for xhtml2, xforms and all that good stuff. (there are no cols or rows in xforms).  This was done in 
order to maintain backwards compatibility, something xhtml2 will 
  break.Not a great answer, but that's all I can come up 
  with.AlanPaul Novitski wrote: 
  Why is it 
that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea element, even in 
xhtml?  They strike me as being purely presentational, and not really 
needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply arbitrary defaults 
as they do with text input field width.  I can't find any reference to 
this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere.  Any suggestions? 
Paul 

Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Alan Trick wrote:
That's what I had, but AFAIK, you can't have the page resize to fit 
the viewport without absolute/fixed positioning (unless you use a 
screwy js hack).  If you could prove me wrong I would be very 
greatful. Personally I dislike absolute positioning.

David Laakso wrote:
Looks like a simple fluid width 2-col layout with a header, 
horizontal nav  bar, and fixed width right column would do it for 
most concerned browsers.
Absolute positioning is good for small parts of pages, but not much for
whole pages.
A simple float-design with a little bit of AP, can be as fluid as one
may like it. How about 3-column floats?

Basically it is this:

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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[WSG] DTD syntax [WAS] Opening links in new window with XHTML

[Chris Bentley]

Chris Stratford wrote:
 You can use this DTD:
http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd";>
 I made it myself from a tutorial.
 It is XHTML 1.0 Strict.
Are you sure that the Formal Public Identifier part of the DTD can  
really look like that? I thought that FPIs had a formal syntax which  
took the form:

"[ISO Registration]//[Organisation]//[Class] [Description]//[Language]"
Where..
[ISO Registration] of the resource as indicated by either a plus or  
minus sign.
[Organisation] is a unique identifier of the owner of the resource.
[Class] is a keyword identifying the type of object being referenced.
[Description] is a unique descriptive name for the resource being  
referenced. and lastly
The ISO language code for the language of the markup defined by the  
resource. (ie what natural language is used in the tags)

eg.,
http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd";>
Also there are some specific naming rules for FPIs have to meet to  
conform with XHTMLMOD
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ 
conformance.html#s_conform_naming_rules


Cheers,
Chris.

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[WSG] stemming autoreplies

[Alan Trick]

I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on
topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this.

I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop
forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE',
and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject.  I think it
would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam.

Thanks,
Alan Trick

[WSG] stemming autoreplies

[Alan Trick]

I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on
topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this.

I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop
forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE',
and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject.  I think it
would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam.

Thanks,
Alan Trick

Re: [WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?

[Alan Trick]

I've wondered about this one as well, my guess is that
1. they figured the attributes were to important to drop in
the event of non-css user agents,

or more likely
2. they didn't change it because xhtml1.x was really not
much more than a reformulation of html into xml.  To get real xhtml we
will have to wait for xhtml2, xforms and all that good stuff. (there
are no cols or rows in xforms).  This was done in
order to maintain backwards compatibility, something xhtml2 will break.

Not a great answer, but that's all I can come up with.

Alan

Paul Novitski wrote:
Why
is it that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea
element, even in xhtml?  They strike me as being purely presentational,
and not really needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply
arbitrary defaults as they do with text input field width.  I can't
find any reference to this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere.  Any
suggestions?
  
  
Paul

Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

[Alan Trick]

That's what I had, but AFAIK, you can't have the page resize to fit the 
viewport without absolute/fixed positioning (unless you use a screwy js 
hack).  If you could prove me wrong I would be very greatful. Personally 
I dislike absolute positioning.

Alan
David Laakso wrote:
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:33:53 -0400, Alan Trick 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:

Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer 
make  me do it :-P

The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that 
are  larger/smaller than the viewport.  As much as I fell this is 
total  nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes.  As always IE 
is giving  me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on 
how to make  absolute positioning work properly in IE.

The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/
Looks like a simple fluid width 2-col layout with a header, horizontal 
nav  bar, and fixed width right column would do it for most concerned 
browsers.

Alan Trick
Best,
David
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Moore, Douglas W]

I am out of the office today  If you need assistance please contact Mickey Rose 
at 1-509-628-9015 or Ken Noyce at 425-865-3960. 
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[WSG] textarea rows & cols - presentation in xhtml?

[Paul Novitski]

Why is it that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea 
element, even in xhtml?  They strike me as being purely presentational, and 
not really needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply 
arbitrary defaults as they do with text input field width.  I can't find 
any reference to this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere.  Any suggestions?

Paul
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Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 §10.5

[Gez Lemon]

On Apr 4, 2005 5:28 PM, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And a "NEW LINE" isn't considered a printed character?


A new line isn't considered a printed character. It helps to think in
terms of what you can hear. You can't hear a new line.

Best regards,

Gez

_
Supplement your vitamins
http://juicystudio.com
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Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE

[David Laakso]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:33:53 -0400, Alan Trick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:

Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer make  
me do it :-P

The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that are  
larger/smaller than the viewport.  As much as I fell this is total  
nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes.  As always IE is giving  
me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on how to make  
absolute positioning work properly in IE.

The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/
Looks like a simple fluid width 2-col layout with a header, horizontal nav  
bar, and fixed width right column would do it for most concerned browsers.
Alan Trick
Best,
David

--
de gustibus non est disputandum
http://www.dlaakso.com/
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Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 §10.5

[Mordechai Peller]

Piero Fissore wrote:
Someone told me that it doesn't consider those links separated because
of the the printed point of the li element.
That someone says that in the guideline - at the point 10.5 - they
speak about "separate adiacent links with PRINTED character": this is
true, but I can't believe that is a "printed character" problem and
not a "structure" problem.
 

And a "NEW LINE" isn't considered a printed character?
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[WSG] position:absolute in IE

[Alan Trick]

Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer make 
me do it :-P

The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that are 
larger/smaller than the viewport.  As much as I fell this is total 
nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes.  As always IE is giving 
me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on how to make 
absolute positioning work properly in IE.

The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] help with IE 3-pixel bug

[Chris Stratford]

I can't see what you mean.
But what I do is, give the container a height of 1%.
eg:
div { height: 1% }
and that DIV will no longer be effected.
I cant tell if thats the problem though.
Gallagher, Robin wrote:
Hi
As you can see on the test page I've put up here:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~persia/final/test.html
The background image in the floated right column is being affected by the IE 3-pixel bug. 

I've found an explanation and solution for this at:
http://www.onestab.net/a/pie/explorer/threepxtest.html
but can't get it to work so far. I'd appreciate any alternative solutions, 
advice, etc.
Ta
 

Robin Gallagher
   

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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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Re: [WSG] Suckerfish Sliding Doors Image Replacement with Current Page .. Navigation

[hunter]

FYI, same problem in ff1.0.2/Mac)S 10.3.3 - dropdown drops but doesn't 
retract again.

Works well in Opera 7.54, but the dividing line between Cleaning and 
Health Support looks more like a dashed line - seems to be broken somehow.

However, works great in Safari 1.2.1.
Good luck!
Wendy
Alan Trick wrote:
Sorry, I don't have a Mac, so I can't help you in that department, but I 
tested it in my versions of Firefox (1.0.2 & nightly) and the menus go 
down, but they won't go up again (at least I couldn't figure out how to 
do it).
Alan Trick

Richard Czeiger wrote:
Let's combine a whole bunch of different CSS concepts and hope it 
works in everything.   :o)
 
Check out this link:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/test.html
 
Here's the CSS:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/styles/style.css
 
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Re: [WSG] Suckerfish Sliding Doors Image Replacement with Current Page .. Navigation

[Alan Trick]

Sorry, I don't have a Mac, so I can't help you in that department, but I 
tested it in my versions of Firefox (1.0.2 & nightly) and the menus go 
down, but they won't go up again (at least I couldn't figure out how to 
do it).
Alan Trick

Richard Czeiger wrote:
Let's combine a whole bunch of different CSS concepts and hope it 
works in everything.   :o)
 
Check out this link:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/test.html
 
Here's the CSS:
http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/styles/style.css
 
On the navigation:
 
1. The suckerfish drop down on "services" in the menu works.
2. Replaced all the text links with sliding doors background images.
3. Because we're on the Client page, this has it's roll-over state on.
 
All this works PERFECTLY on PC FireFox, PC IE 5.0 and PC IE 6.0.
Mac Safari? The nav doesn't work at all
Can't even click on the buttons.
 
Can anyone PLEASE help me?
I don't have OSX 10.2 so I can't test on Safari.
 
Anything to get me out of this hole would be greately appreciated!.
 
Cheers  :o)
Richard

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RE: [WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element

[Trusz, Andrew]

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of pixeldiva
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:16 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element

On Apr 1, 2005 4:04 PM, Trusz, Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually the example works just fine in IE6.

Not strictly. If you look, you'll notice that the third sentence is in
smallcaps in IE6 and ordinary in FF.

Not much of an issue, but an issue nonetheless.

[/pedant]

pix
http://www.pixeldiva.co.uk
**
I see what you mean. But the error in line 3  isn't due to the use of
multiple classes in IE. Its the result of the dotted notation used in 
the attribute selector p.underline.small.   According to the specs, any 
list of space separated attributes containing the attributes in the dotted
list will result in the rule associated with the dotted notation being
applied . What IE does wrong is to treat small in example three as if it
were inherited. Its not. Its an attribute selector and shouldn't be applied.
It should and is applied in line 4.

While this is a perfectly legal and correct means to do attribute selection,
it seems to me, at least,  unlikely to be used extensively.  
So having a little care will avoid the problem created  by IE's  mistake
without having to give up the advantages of using multiple classes.

Here's the relevant example from the specs:

For example, we can assign style information to all elements with
class~="pastoral" as follows:

*.pastoral { color: green }  /* all elements with class~=pastoral */

or just

.pastoral { color: green }  /* all elements with class~=pastoral */

The following assigns style only to H1 elements with class~="pastoral":

H1.pastoral { color: green }  /* H1 elements with class~=pastoral */

Given these rules, the first H1 instance below would not have green text,
while the second would:

Not green
Very green

To match a subset of "class" values, each value must be preceded by a ".",
in any order.

Example(s):

For example, the following rule matches any P element whose "class" 
attribute has been assigned a list of space-separated values that includes
"pastoral" and "marine":

p.pastoral.marine { color: green }

This rule matches when class="pastoral blue aqua marine" but does not match
for class="pastoral blue".

/*Note.* CSS gives so much power to the "class" attribute, that authors
could conceivably design their own "document language" based on elements
with almost no associated presentation (such as DIV and SPAN in HTML) and
assigning style information through the "class" attribute. Authors should
avoid this practice since the structural elements of a document language
often have recognized and accepted meanings and author-defined classes may
not./

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#attribute-selectors)

The cautionary note is particularly interesting.

drew.
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Re: [WSG] Opening links in new window with XHTML

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 15:31:49 +0100, Vlad Alexander
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You do it via JavaScript. For example:
http://mysite.com"; onclick="window.open(this.href); return  
false;" onkeypress="window.open(this.href); return false;">

This is the most accessible way to do this.
No, it isn't. It may fail with pop-up blockers (return !!window.open)
and onkeypress doesn't work as you expect - keypress event is fired
also when you simply navigate to/off the link and not try to open it
(just leave onclick which actually is something like "onactivate")
and
http://mysite.com";>...
is more accessible way to do this. No new window - target hasn't
been removed from xhtml to make webmasters use more hacks...
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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