[WSG] a required field marker in forms

[Peter Ottery]

I've set up a base standard form layout to use as a starting point for
projects requiring a form - with text input boxes, check box's, radio
buttons, a select menu, and a text area that could all be swapped in
or out or duplicated relatively easily.

here's the page:
http://skunkworks.farcrycms.com/wsg/forms.html

2 questions, 

1) I'm curious if the use of an asterix to indicate a required field,
and the way I've done it, is ok accessibility-wise or if theres
anything else i could/should do...?

2) theres also an error message placement that would flick on if
you've missed a required field:
http://skunkworks.farcrycms.com/wsg/forms_error.html

the error message seems to be displaying fine across a wide range of
browsers (courtesy of browsercam:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=157477) except good ol
mac ie5. if anyone can see an easy fix for mac ie5 that'd be most
welcome.

cheers,
pete

~~
Peter Ottery ~ Senior Designer
Daemon Pty Ltd 
17 Roslyn Gardens
Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011 
www.daemon.com.au
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[WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Cook, Graham R]

 I really like the nice clean design and commmend you for your work. Like 
Steven I think that the calendar page could also benefit from being a table. 
Simple rule of thumb; if the page could easily fit with an Excel spreadsheet, 
it is a possible table candidate.  When constructing the tables, remember to 
include the appropriate row and column scope attributes so that a screenreader 
user can easily navigate the data.

I would also really like to see your pages contain headings - h1, h2, h3 etc. 
The obviouds candidates on your home page would be Top story, Latest News, 
Featured Article etc.  This again is extremely useful for screenreader 
navigation.  I concur also re the previous comment re putting the menu into 
unordered lists.

Graham Cook


Standards Manager - Content Integrity
Data & Online
Telstra Technology
32/300 Latrobe St
Melbourne VIC 3000

Ph- (03) 9632 8035
Fax - (03) 8600 9850
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Find out more about Standards : http://telstra.com.au/standards/index.cfm

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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Yeung
Sent: Friday, 22 April 2005 1:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

The site looks good, works well with Safari, Mozilla, FireFox, Netscape, IE, 
and Opera. Good content layout, and best of all no tables.

- Anthony

On 4/21/05, Pixel n Paints <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website 
> http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client â CSS JS & HTML with NO 
> TABLE tagsâ to make it more search engine friendly...
> 
> I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible But I am facing 
> problem with footer in IE..
>  a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.â not always but sometimes.
> 
> Need suggestions, feedbackâ
> 
> --
> Thanks,
> Sachin K
>
NÅÃÂÃÅXÂÃâÃÃÃnÃÂÃvÃÂÃÂyÃÂÅÃÃÂÂjÂâÂÂÅÃfâÃâÃÅwqÃÂÂâÃÅÃÅÅÂ)ÂâzXÂ
 Â)âÃ

RE: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Rebecca Cox]

Looks pretty good to me - I have that problem sometimes as well with footers in 
IE. 

Have not looked at your CSS, so no idea if this would have anything to do with 
it on your site. But sometimes, I think when you use position: absolute; bottom 
0; to place your footer, if there's (for example) images with no height 
declared, or DHTML which adds an element into the page after onload, these 
heights don't get accounted for when the browser goes "where is the bottom of 
this page" to place the footer Other browsers eg Safari, Firefox don't have 
this issue;(

If all else fails possibly try a bit of javascript to check / recalculate 
heights of things.

Hope that makes sense - is the end of the week so I am a bit scrambled:)

-Rebecca


>>>
I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website http://www.mad4f1.com 
for one of my client â CSS JS & HTML with NO TABLE tagsâ to make it more 
search engine friendly...

I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible But I am facing problem with 
footer in IE..
 a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.â not always but sometimes.

Need suggestions, feedbackâ

--
Thanks,
Sachin K
NÅÂÅÂâÃnÂvÂÂyÂÃÂjâÂÃââÅqÂâÅÅÂÂzÂÂâ

Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Bruce Morrison]

On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:36, Pixel n Paints wrote:
> Hi guys,


> 
> I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website
> http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client … CSS JS & HTML with NO
> TABLE tags… to make it more search engine friendly...
> 
> I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible
> But I am facing problem with footer in IE..
>  a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.… not always but sometimes.

One thing from an accessibility POV is that the menu is a bunch of
links.  These are better off being in an unordered list.

Also use have a lot of styles in the HTML.  It;s easier from a
maintenance POV to have these in an external file

> 
> Need suggestions, feedback…
-- 
Bruce Morrison
designIT http://www.designit.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Steven . Faulkner]

A few comments:
 - the 'driver standings' and 'team standings' are data tables and need to
be marked up as tables using the appropriate elements
-appears to contain no semantic structure elements (e.g no heading or list
markup)
-invalid html
-no alt attributes on IMG elements




with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.


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Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Anthony Timberlake]

Very nice site presentation and I love the way that everything fits in with the theme.  Nice use of standards.  Very nice site.
On 4/21/05, Anthony Yeung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The site looks good, works well with Safari, Mozilla, FireFox,Netscape, IE, and Opera. Good content layout, and best of all no
tables.- AnthonyOn 4/21/05, Pixel n Paints <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Hi guys,>> I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website
> http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client … CSS JS & HTML with NO> TABLE tags… to make it more search engine friendly...>> I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible
> But I am facing problem with footer in IE..>  a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.… not always but sometimes.>> Need suggestions, feedback…>> --> Thanks,> Sachin K
>-- Anthony TimberlakeCo-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.ukHead Director at Spike Radio - 
http://www.spikeradio.org

Re: [WSG] Re: flash css hybrid example

[Anthony Yeung]

I must say this site has a very well designed layout and wonderful
structure. I esp. like the Flash implementation.

- Anthony

On 4/21/05, Kvnmcwebn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Heres a good example of a hybrid site that uses flash for presentation and
> css for content as someone had requested earlier.
> 
> http://www.bensaunders.com/blog_archives.php
> 
> -Kvncmwebn
> 
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Anthony Yeung]

The site looks good, works well with Safari, Mozilla, FireFox,
Netscape, IE, and Opera. Good content layout, and best of all no
tables.

- Anthony

On 4/21/05, Pixel n Paints <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website
> http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client … CSS JS & HTML with NO
> TABLE tags… to make it more search engine friendly...
> 
> I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible
> But I am facing problem with footer in IE..
>  a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.… not always but sometimes.
> 
> Need suggestions, feedback…
> 
> --
> Thanks,
> Sachin K
>

Re: [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?

[Steven . Faulkner]

This may be helpful,

Irish National Disability Authority IT Accessibility Guidelines
Legislation and Policy
http://accessit.nda.ie/policy_and_legislation.html


with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.


|-+->
| |   Andrey Stefanenko |
| |  |
| |   Sent by:  |
| |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
| |   roup.org  |
| | |
| | |
| |   21/04/2005 10:07  |
| |   PM|
| |   Please respond to |
| |   wsg   |
| | |
|-+->
  
>---|
  | 
  |
  |   To:   wsg@webstandardsgroup.org   
  |
  |   cc:   
  |
  |   Subject:  [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?
  |
  
>---|




Dear Sirs.
Please give me some advice on Ireland web accessibility guidelines. Is it
exist?
Some links would be fine.
Thanx.
Andrey Stefanenko
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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[tee]

Hi, I want to express my gratitude to all who answered my question regarding
the Web standards as a selling point. I only managed to read through all
your messages today, your answers have helped me clarified some doubts I
have. 

Regards,

tee


> From: Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:31:13 +0200
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
> 
>>> When I hire a professional I'm paying
>>> them to use their knowledge and expertise ...
>> 
>> Along these lines, Do we really need to tell clients, or whoever, how we
>> make a Web page?
> 
> I agree, I don't want any latin things or the precise "workflow" :) when
> going to surgery. The only thing I want to know, how is it done from the
> scope of myself (eg. we'll do this, therefore... and then you can ...
> and then that's all ok ... happily ever after... :D), the precise
> description is IMHO for them.
> 
> -- 
> Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
> **
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> 
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> 

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Re: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links

[Thierry Koblentz]

Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
> I thought name was deprecated.

>From the W3C (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#C_8):

In XML, URI-references [RFC2396] that end with fragment identifiers of the
form "#foo" do not refer to elements with an attribute name="foo"; rather,
they refer to elements with an attribute defined to be of type ID, e.g., the
id attribute in HTML 4. Many existing HTML clients don't support the use of
ID-type attributes in this way, so identical values may be supplied for both
of these attributes to ensure maximum forward and backward compatibility
(e.g., ...).
Further, since the set of legal values for attributes of type ID is much
smaller than for those of type CDATA, the type of the name attribute has
been changed to NMTOKEN. This attribute is constrained such that it can only
have the same values as type ID, or as the Name production in XML 1.0
Section 2.3, production 5. Unfortunately, this constraint cannot be
expressed in the XHTML 1.0 DTDs. Because of this change, care must be taken
when converting existing HTML documents. The values of these attributes must
be unique within the document, valid, and any references to these fragment
identifiers (both internal and external) must be updated should the values
be changed during conversion.
Note that the collection of legal values in XML 1.0 Section 2.3, production
5 is much larger than that permitted to be used in the ID and NAME types
defined in HTML 4. When defining fragment identifiers to be
backward-compatible, only strings matching the pattern
[A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9:_.-]* should be used. See Section 6.2 of [HTML4] for more
information.
Finally, note that XHTML 1.0 has deprecated the name attribute of the a,
applet, form, frame, iframe, img, and map elements, and it will be removed
from XHTML in subsequent versions.

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Window Pop-ups

[Neerav]

While they should be avoided at all costs, if you really really have to 
use popups the best way to do it according to Joe Clark is to add an alt 
and/or title to the link image or text to warn in advance that "larger 
image opens in new window" or "this link to an external site will open 
in a new window" etc

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello!
I am writing website develoment guidelines that will be distributed to 
vendors for conforming to the web standards. I haven't been able to get 
more information on the implementation of pop-ups and how it will be read 
by assistive technologies. Does anyone know more about this? We are 
building a complex application that will require pop-ups to appear. 
Currently, we are alerting the user that the link will open in a new 
window. Is this suffiecient to address the w3c guidlines?

Regards
LS
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged
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[WSG] Window Pop-ups

[Lakshmi_Satyanarayana]

Hello!

I am writing website develoment guidelines
that will be distributed to vendors for conforming to the web standards.
I haven't been able to get more information on the implementation of pop-ups
and how it will be read by assistive technologies. Does anyone know more
about this? We are building a complex application that will require pop-ups
to appear. Currently, we are alerting the user that the link will open
in a new window. Is this suffiecient to address the w3c guidlines?

Regards
LS
 

Re: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links

[Thierry Koblentz]

Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
> I've been replacing my  with  id="deepcontent"> Or something similar.
> Isn't that the most appropriate way of going?

Hi Ted,
Try the 2 methods and you'll see how the latter solution disturbs tabbing
navigation.
Using the former allows UAs to "jump" to that location, but once there, the
user cannot tab *from there*. On her next tab, she is brought back to where
she comes from, or even farther "up".

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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RE: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links

[Drake, Ted C.]

I've been replacing my  with 
Or something similar.
Isn't that the most appropriate way of going?
Are you saying this would cause accessibility issues with tabbing?
I thought name was deprecated.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links


Also, I've found that most of the techniques work when it comes to the
jumping part, but making sure tabbing navigation is not disturbed is not
that simple.
For example it appears that  is not bullet proof while
 is.
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[WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links

[Thierry Koblentz]

Hi all,
I've noticed that many of you are using a container ID as a "named anchor"
(to create a "skip nav" for example), but I'm not sure if you're all aware
that this creates an accessibility issue: the user can jump to the location,
but is unable to tab past it.

Also, I've found that most of the techniques work when it comes to the
jumping part, but making sure tabbing navigation is not disturbed is not
that simple.
For example it appears that  is not bullet proof while
 is.
I've also noticed that if one uses display:none to style a named anchor,
MSIE can't find its location (FF seems to be OK with it).
One last thing: for the UA, case is not an issue, so a jump link (#content)
would work, but tabbing navigation would fail if the anchor named "content"
is contained in a DIV named "CONTENT".

Anybody knows why empty anchors are not 100% reliable when it comes to
tabbing navigation? I just can't figure it out...

Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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[WSG] Re: flash css hybrid example

[Kvnmcwebn]

Heres a good example of a hybrid site that uses flash for presentation and
css for content as someone had requested earlier.

http://www.bensaunders.com/blog_archives.php

-Kvncmwebn

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[WSG] helpful links

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi All

I just finished doing a workshop in Vancouver at the Museums on the Web
conference. I showed museum web site people how they could convert their
sites to standards-based/xhtml/css with my friend Brian Rountree.

After the workshop, I posted a set of links that were compiled from our
bookmark lists. I figured it would help the participants.

Jeffrey Zeldman just posted a link to my site, so I guess the list would be
good for everyone. I never really gave it much thought. 

So, here's the link to my site. I hope the list is helpful for you

http://www.tdrake.net.

I really need fix my style sheets so that it isn't the generic layout.  I'll
be putting a set of pages up soon documenting the transformation of the
Inuit Heritage Trust web site while at the conference.

Ted


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Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:46:13 +1000, heretic wrote:
> Maybe architecture is different in america, but here in australia
> architects write the construction specification which has very little
> to do with how anything looks. Yes, aesthetics are a really
> significant part of the job; however so is function... and if they
> forget the wheelchair ramps they're in some serious trouble.

I think the architect attitude is present here in Australia too - I 
completed the first phase of a project for an architect a little while 
ago, and it was maturing quite nicely for them (somehow I had even 
managed to avoid the Google Sandbox - I'd like to know how I managed 
that!) with traffic growing, but apparently it wasn't speccy enough and 
they found themselves a tafe student who would redo it in flash.
Unfortunately it appears to be completely inaccessible flash (where 
they are residential architects and their biggest market segment is the 
older generation :( ) (I should have seen the signs - they kept showing 
me speccy sites from around the world done in flash with 8 pt type. Bad 
me.)
Now it is dropping out of Google and they want to know why and how they 
can fix it. *sigh*

It is bizarre how architects seem more concerned with form than 
function when one would expect that if they stopped and compared it to 
their own work they would see the analogies.  I think a common 
comparison we make is to mention wheelchair access et al for public 
buildings and yet, your typical architect will make their business 
sites to impress their competition not their customer. :(

Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)

[Albert Gedraitis]

This reply shifts focus a bit, but with the word "aesthetics" being
considered relevant to the discussion, if not the only norm for design
of websites, I'd like to speak up for the semiotic dimension.  Images
also speak like words, but more shimmeringly.  I don't refer to an
animation or Flash effect on the computer screen, but to be precise
the use of the symbol of Cross with lightning effects and blue
luminscent sky in relation to a text by the orginal author about a
"Mystical" something that was no good.  Why what's his name's page had
to exploit that particular symbol is not only poor taste but carries a
subliminal message that completely overwhelmed his point, his
surface-text, and any trust this Christian can put in his remarks.  He
played with creating blindness to his own textual message, and left
some readers with a blindspot for anything he has to say.  At the
least, he proved himself to be semiotically ignorant, and
postmodernist to the extreme in toying with symbols that are sacred to
a huge part of the online some of whom may actually be on this
WebStandards list. I lost my way a bit in finding how to enter the
discussion, and want to make clear that I appreciate "heretic"'s
contributions to the whole thread.  I'm sighted so I'm just getting
used to the problems and dilemmas our blind members may have, and am
just learning about them.  And above I used blindness as a metaphor
for my own sighted semiotics problem with the original critique, I
hope I did so without furthering offense.
 
On 4/21/05, heretic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible'
> > and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with
> > disabilities - the html option is.
> > Surely?
> 
> I'd say Flash is mostly a problem because it frequently breaks all
> usability and accessibility guidelines AND it's the only thing on the
> site. Which is fine if your site has absolutely no serious purpose,
> but not good if you're a business.
> 
> Not that Flash is incapable of being created in an accessible manner
> or anything; just that it is a format which lends itself more to art
> than communication.
> 
> As I've taken to saying... there's a reason it's called "Flash" and
> not "Substance" ;)
> 
> Most of it boils down to how you use it... just like PDF, it's ok if
> used carefully; but terrible when used for vil ;)
> 
> cheers,
> 
> h
> 
> --
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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> 
>
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RE: [WSG] safari list question

[Drake, Ted C.]

Is there a filter for Safari?
I'd like to define no-repeat for the rest of the browsers and hide it from
safari.

Thanks
Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] safari list question


On 21 Apr 2005, at 12:58 am, Drake, Ted C. wrote:

> However, in Safari, the bullet is appearing, as it should, on a list 
> and
> then immediately above bullet is a half bullet. This is really odd. It 
> is
> repeating the background image.
> Here's the style:
>
> ul li {list-style-type:none; background: url(bg-bullets.png) no-repeat 
> 0
> 5px; padding-left:12px;}

Safari has problems with background-repeat:no-repeat. A problem that is 
*not* fixed in the latest release (1.3) and will probably be there in 
the 2.0 version of OX X Tiger (10.4).

A similar problem is seen here (hover should move the image).

The problem is *less* pronounced if you move the image horizontally.
A solution is to space out the fragments of your sprite more, or put 
them in an horizontal row.


Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 

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Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE

[Stuart Homfray]

Daniela Hoffmann wrote:
I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) 

Jeez, I'd almost gotten over the days of framesets... *shiver* :)
Dani, have you tried changing the 'scrolling' attribute from 'auto' to 
'yes' on the 'mainFrame' frame?

cheers,
Stuart
--
===
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Stuart Homfray
http://www.stuarthomfray.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Kvnmcwebn]

One example that uses the satay method and i think some of the other things
that were talking about here is.
www.disney.com.


I think there is also one in the css vault.
If you do a search for flash
there your will find it.

-kvnmcwebn

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Re: [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?

[Kvnmcwebn]

hi andrey,

Dont design for broadband anyway.

Outside of Dublin, Cork and a
few other cities our only options here are SLOW
DIAL UP connections or overpriced isdn lines.

Also i would more or less make the majority of
your content visible at 800 x 600 screen resolution.

-kvnmcwebn


 

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Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE

[Stefan Lemmen]

maybe this will help you:

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum21/9798.htm

Stefan Lemmen
Holland

On 4/21/05, Stefan Lemmen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Daniela,
> 
> My first reply didn't make any sense at all when I looked in it
> further. (I just woke up when I replied)
> 
> I have had the problem myself too. Couldn't find the problem either.
> I'm sure there must be a sollution somewhere.. Maybe you could try
> using some css instead of tables to position inside the frames. I'm
> sure the problem has to do with the combination frames and tables.
> Maybe try to position everything in tables and dont use frames at
> all.. or use frames without using tables. I know this is
> time-consuming. But I cant give you any better advice at this point.
> 
> In the future you take a different approach on positioning stuff..
> take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com
> 
> It gave me another look on designing and positioning.
> 
> Good luck with your project. Hope you find the cause of the problem soon.
> 
> Stefan Lemmen
> Holland
> 
> On 4/21/05, Daniela Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked
> > fine as long as they were .htm-files.
> > Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the
> > inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same:
> > http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php
> > (with 660px width:
> > http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php )
> > And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in
> > Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine.
> > And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML
> > files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what
> > makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors:
> > frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders
> > appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem;
> > In "biography.php" validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background
> > in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this
> > cause a scrollbalk?)
> > Thanks for all hints,
> > Dani
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Stefan Lemmen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE
> >
> > Hi Dani,
> >
> > I think I found the error
> >
> >  > background="opmaak/bg_table_n.jpg">
> >  
> >
> > 
> > > src="opmaak/pijl_ben.gif" alt="naar beneden" width="12" height="12"
> > border="0">
> >  
> >  
> > > id="text_content">Peter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is
> >
> > The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) =
> > 657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i
> > think u should try 1st td 617.
> >
> > Hope this helps you.
> >
> > On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > hi all,
> > > ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment
> > > program, so he can update himself).
> > > But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which
> > > worked fine as long as they were htm-files:
> > > http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php
> > > (the htm-files were
> > > http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he
> > > approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything
> > > gets wider and the scrollbar stays put.
> > > And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and
> > > 'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear;
> > > and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like "get
> > > another
> > > browser ect" (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years
> > > ago).
> > > I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's
> > > I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone
> > > knows?
> > >
> > > Thanks, Dani
> >
> > --
> > Stefan Lemmen
> > Holland
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> >
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Stefan Lemmen
> Holland
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to 

Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)

[heretic]

> So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible'
> and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with
> disabilities - the html option is.
> Surely?

I'd say Flash is mostly a problem because it frequently breaks all
usability and accessibility guidelines AND it's the only thing on the
site. Which is fine if your site has absolutely no serious purpose,
but not good if you're a business.

Not that Flash is incapable of being created in an accessible manner
or anything; just that it is a format which lends itself more to art
than communication.

As I've taken to saying... there's a reason it's called "Flash" and
not "Substance" ;)

Most of it boils down to how you use it... just like PDF, it's ok if
used carefully; but terrible when used for vil ;)

cheers,

h

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not 
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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[WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?

[Andrey Stefanenko]

Dear Sirs.
Please give me some advice on Ireland web accessibility guidelines. Is it 
exist?
Some links would be fine.
Thanx.
Andrey Stefanenko
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Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE

[Stefan Lemmen]

Hi Daniela,

My first reply didn't make any sense at all when I looked in it
further. (I just woke up when I replied)

I have had the problem myself too. Couldn't find the problem either.
I'm sure there must be a sollution somewhere.. Maybe you could try
using some css instead of tables to position inside the frames. I'm
sure the problem has to do with the combination frames and tables.
Maybe try to position everything in tables and dont use frames at
all.. or use frames without using tables. I know this is
time-consuming. But I cant give you any better advice at this point.

In the future you take a different approach on positioning stuff..
take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com

It gave me another look on designing and positioning. 

Good luck with your project. Hope you find the cause of the problem soon.

Stefan Lemmen
Holland

On 4/21/05, Daniela Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked
> fine as long as they were .htm-files.
> Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the
> inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same:
> http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php
> (with 660px width:
> http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php )
> And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in
> Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine.
> And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML
> files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what
> makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors:
> frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders
> appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem;
> In "biography.php" validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background
> in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this
> cause a scrollbalk?)
> Thanks for all hints,
> Dani
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Lemmen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE
> 
> Hi Dani,
> 
> I think I found the error
> 
>  background="opmaak/bg_table_n.jpg">
>  
>
> 
> src="opmaak/pijl_ben.gif" alt="naar beneden" width="12" height="12"
> border="0">
>  
>  
> id="text_content">Peter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is
> 
> The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) =
> 657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i
> think u should try 1st td 617.
> 
> Hope this helps you.
> 
> On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > hi all,
> > ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment
> > program, so he can update himself).
> > But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which
> > worked fine as long as they were htm-files:
> > http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php
> > (the htm-files were
> > http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he
> > approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything
> > gets wider and the scrollbar stays put.
> > And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and
> > 'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear;
> > and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like "get
> > another
> > browser ect" (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years
> > ago).
> > I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's
> > I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone
> > knows?
> >
> > Thanks, Dani
> 
> --
> Stefan Lemmen
> Holland
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


-- 
Stefan Lemmen
Holland
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[WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com

[Pixel n Paints]

Hi guys,

I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website
http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client … CSS JS & HTML with NO
TABLE tags… to make it more search engine friendly...

I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible
But I am facing problem with footer in IE..
 a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid.… not always but sometimes.

Need suggestions, feedback…

-- 
Thanks,
Sachin K

Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Jan Brasna]

BTW I'm going to use this gracefully degrading method on one of the 
projects that are currently under development, so if you send a mail in 
a month or so, I might show you dev site.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Jan Brasna]

Interesting Jan,  how would you do that - any examples?
Use the  element properly[1] and insert an alternative in there 
(image, any styled code - even image map[2] etc. ...).

No examples, though. Sorry (can't remember any good).
[1] 
[2] 
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[designer]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jan Brasna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was
IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))


> > What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the
visuals
> > or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)?
>
> That's great if it is done by a standards-wise designer, so it's done
> properly (with the fallback alternatives).



Interesting Jan,  how would you do that - any examples?

Thanks

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Jan Brasna]

What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals
or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)?
That's great if it is done by a standards-wise designer, so it's done 
properly (with the fallback alternatives).

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:14:35 +0100, Kvnmcwebn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:

What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the  
visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)?
IMHO that is quite OK, if you put inside  some alternative content
(images, mosltly).
Don't make menu in Flash. Flash doesn't let user choose to open links
in new window/tab.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[Kvnmcwebn]

So far we've discussed sites that are basically a flash container with a
separate html site for accessabilty.


What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals
or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)?

Right now im building a site that is primarily xhtml but uses swfs for a
mapping application. I think that hybridizing might offer the best of both
worlds. This approach would call for the use of frames ick... if the
flash is used for a navigation module. But if the navigation and content use
standards why not let the presentation use swfs?


-kvnmcwebn


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[WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily "visual" work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))

[pixeldiva]

On 4/21/05, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The attitude that says 'visually impaired people don't matter because it
> isn't for them' may sound insular, but it isn't. It's merely a matter of
> fact.  The evangelists of the 'everything in the world must be accessible to
> all' camp are striving for the impossible. The logical extension of this
> extreme attitude is that all art galleries should close down because the
> totally blind can't see anything in there, and all music should be
> unavailable because the totally deaf can't hear it, and  . . .  OK, you get
> the point.

Of course everything can't be accessible to all. It's just not possible.

What is possible is for there to be a level playing field, so that
people can get access to stuff that is then varying levels of
accessible to them.

Taking the art gallery example:

I, as a sighted person can walk into the Tate Modern gallery in
London, see all the artwork there, and yet, find none of it
accessible, because I just don't "get" it.

A friend of mine, who has a serious sight problem can walk into that
same gallery, stand in front of the same pieces of artwork I did, and
that same artwork that I don't "get" is accessible to him.

Does he experience it in the same way that I do (i.e., through the
visual medium)?

Nope.

Does that mean that he shouldn't have bothered going to the gallery
because he can't see it?

Nope.

Extending that to the web.

I dabble in photography. I really enjoy it, and enjoy the feedback
that I get when people look at my photos.

I want to put my photos up on line. They're very visual, and
frequently, very abstract.

I'm passionate about accessibility. I want my friends with sight
problems to be able to experience my photos too, even if they can't
necessarily get the same level of experience visually as others will.

Describing exactly what the subject won't necessarily make my photo
accessible. So I tell the story behind it. What made me take it, what
I was feeling at the time, whatever I think will get across the same
thing I'm trying to get across in the visual medium of the photograph.

Because that way, I feel like someone can then either "get" or "not
get" that photo on an equal level.

Just because someone can't walk into a place, look round and
immediately go "wow" doesn't mean that they can't get that "wow"
factor from something else, like the feeling of space, or the fact
that the flooring has been designed so they don't fall on their face
going up stairs... and if you're showcasing your design skills online,
why limit yourself to just the visual?

Show off your design skills by designing in more than one dimension!

Ok, I'm going to stop ranting and get back to work.

pix
http://www.pixeldiva.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)

[designer]

This is tending to drift off-topic, but it is a valid part of standards
because we're discussing accessibility issues in relation to design and the
role of 'image' in design.  (So now I feel better :-).

The attitude that says 'visually impaired people don't matter because it
isn't for them' may sound insular, but it isn't. It's merely a matter of
fact.  The evangelists of the 'everything in the world must be accessible to
all' camp are striving for the impossible. The logical extension of this
extreme attitude is that all art galleries should close down because the
totally blind can't see anything in there, and all music should be
unavailable because the totally deaf can't hear it, and  . . .  OK, you get
the point.

However, I do believe that we must all strive to produce something which
can be appreciated by as many folk as possible, including those with
accessibility difficulties. So, to take my own case (so I'm not slagging
anyone else off) my main business site is primarily flash, and it is totally
'inaccessible in the sense we mean here. [ It's the link in the signature
below]  So, I've provided an html version too (same 'factual content',
different way of going about it - as indeed applies to the Foster&Partners
site also).   My site may not be perfect, but Hey - that's why I'm here : to
learn how to make it as near perfect as I'm capable of doing, with help from
you guys.

So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible'
and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with
disabilities - the html option is.

Surely?

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)

[James Ellis]

Hi all

This is starting to push off topic. Please keep it on the topic of
accessibility (maybe start a new thread that is more descriptive) or
take it elsewhere... and remember our list guidelines about abuse.

Thanks
James
--
admin
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Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE

[Daniela Hoffmann]

I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked 
fine as long as they were .htm-files.
Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the 
inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same:
http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php
(with 660px width: 
http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php )
And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in 
Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine.
And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML 
files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what 
makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors: 
frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders 
appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem;
In "biography.php" validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background 
in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this 
cause a scrollbalk?)
Thanks for all hints,
Dani

- Original Message - 
From: "Stefan Lemmen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE

Hi Dani,
I think I found the error

 
    
 
   
 
 
   Peter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is
The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) =
657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i
think u should try 1st td 617.
Hope this helps you.

On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

hi all,
ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment
program, so he can update himself).
But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which
worked fine as long as they were htm-files:
http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php
(the htm-files were
http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he
approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything
gets wider and the scrollbar stays put.
And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and
'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear;
and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like "get 
another
browser ect" (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years
ago).
I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's
I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone 
knows?

Thanks, Dani

--
Stefan Lemmen
Holland
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