Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
On 21 Dec 2005, at 5:25 pm, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
body { font-size: small; }
is generally acceptable and is approximately the same as 80% of the
Definitely not acceptable to me for content paragraphs. :-(
Why not? Is it too big or too small for you? Or is it just not
precise enough?
If you say it's too small, then I'd accept that. There are many
who say anything below 'medium' is too small for body copy. If you
say it's too big, then I have to very strongly disagree and say
that making it any smaller, will make it very difficult or at least
uncomfortable for many users to read without increasing it.
If you ask me and my tired old eyes:
Depending on which font-family you use, font-size:small is either on
the lower limit (georgia, which is a *big* font), or really too small
for me, when used with Roman fonts.
Using the same font-size:small for Japanese fonts/text on the other
side works pretty well across the board for me, except in Camino/
Firefox Mac, which tends to smash down fonts.
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
body { font-size: small; }
is generally acceptable and is approximately the same as 80% of the
Definitely not acceptable to me for content paragraphs. :-(
Why not? Is it too big or too small for you? Or is it just not precise
enough?
If you say it's too small, then I'd accept that. There are many who say
anything below 'medium' is too small for body copy. If you say it's too
big, then I have to very strongly disagree and say that making it any
smaller, will make it very difficult or at least uncomfortable for many
users to read without increasing it.
. :-)
Anyone claiming small is too big for content paragraphs is discussing
grossly misconfigured systems and/or browsers. On every properly
configured standards-compliant browser, medium is the same as unstyled
and exactly the best size.
--
Jesus Christ is the reason for the season.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
On Dec 21, 2005, at 5:43 AM, Felix Miata wrote: properly configured By this you mean default install? - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:24 PM, Ric Raftis wrote: underlying agression I've seen it. - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes
body { font-size: small; }
Such a rule is saying, in effect, the content on this page should be
one size smaller than the user's comfortable reading size. Small font
sizes for main body text is user-hostile. (The converse rarely seems to
exist; it's unusual to find a site that is too big, although I suppose
some must exist.
Smaller fonts for navigation purposes, may be appropriate. Navigation
bars are read differently, and are often set off visually (through
columns, whitespace, etc.) that allow them to be read easily even when
one size category smaller than normal. Footers and 'small print' are
also appropriate for smaller font sizes.
But main content in small text? I wouldn't advise it.
Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of Minnesota Duluth
Duluth, MN 55812-3009
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes
100.01% on body and then em's for the rest This prevents scaling issues with IE and older versions of Operahttp://www.freexenon.com/2005/10/css-fonts-and-font-sizing.html -- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work) www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Thomas Livingston wrote: On Dec 21, 2005, at 5:43 AM, Felix Miata wrote: properly configured By this you mean default install? Default install of what? X? Display? Fonts? Browser? OS? My experience with installers is they more often than not finish without announcing to the user their personalization options, leaving it up to the user to discover and adjust accordingly in order to be fully configured properly. Many don't, but many do. In fact, most must have done at least some personalization, since most hit statistics that say the most common screen resolution is 1024x768 even though old versions of doze default to 640x480 and newer to 800x600, and signicant numbers are above the median. -- Jesus Christ is the reason for the season. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes
Laura Carlson wrote:
body { font-size: small; }
Such a rule is saying, in effect, the content on this page should be
one size smaller than the user's comfortable reading size. Small
font sizes for main body text is user-hostile. (The converse rarely
seems to exist; it's unusual to find a site that is too big, although
I suppose some must exist.
A side-effect of small font-size on body is that Opera Firefox will
display all fonts *much* larger then the author intended - if the
visitor set 'minimum font size' in order to prevent unreadable small
fonts. That's because the result of this browser-option is inherited
down the chain.
The result is often 'very readable text but broken layout' at the
visitor's end, and a somewhat confused author at the other end when they
get reports.
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me cant get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I cant for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Felix Miata wrote: snip In fact, most must have done at least some personalization, since most hit statistics that say the most common screen resolution is 1024x768 even though old versions of doze default to 640x480 and newer to 800x600, and signicant numbers are above the median. It might appear that way but for many home and small biz users they are getting systems from major PC co's and these systems come with preconfigured OS's with a default resolution higher than 800X600 usually if the bottom system is shipping with a 17 monitor Dell, Gateway, HP and Compaq ship with resolutions optimized for the 17 monitor. In addition more and more LCD's are being installed everywhere. The native resolutions for 17 LCD is usually 1024X768 or greater and it either changes the Windows display settings on install or suggests that in order to make it work the setting be changed. I also know that the stats for my site are skewed because the visitors are high web users using Firefox and probably know how to adjust for them. Visually impaired users who have their systems configured probably know how to increase the font sizes. Users like my parents and my in-laws probably don't even know that you can change font sizes. That being said it use a larger font size for my sites and client sites when I can. All the best, Jay ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Thomas Livingston wrote: Still talking browsers? ...on top of one of a multitude of OS and hardware-packages, I guess. So... (new) listers looking for help, might need to know what 'properly configured browser' is. If most users don't change a thing when they install a browser, or change the one that came with their PC, then what's properly configured mean? People should keep _default_ configuration in mind. Out-of-the-box viewing scenarios. No? With around 1 billion web users spread over a number of basic (default) packages, and at least a few million variations to those packages in daily use, there is no such thing as a reliable base to design on/for. Might be possible to find some sort of average scenario, but that's all. When it comes to font-size, the only rules one may find is that it isn't smart to set it too low or to try to fix it. Layouts simply have to be able to cope with a large range of font-size variations, or they will break. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Thomas Livingston wrote: If most users don't change a thing when they install a browser, or change the one that came with their PC, then what's properly configured mean? I think we should realize that most people don't know anything about configuring their browser and even their computer! Just look at my Mother... ;-) [just kidding Mom] I think it's safe to assume default installation settings for most users -- everybody else are fringe cases. -- Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing http://blog.maestropublishing.com Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1 Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion! http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/ - Member Team Mach-II - Member Team Fusion ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
I haven't looked at the code but overflow:hidden wil give you the effect you are looking for!On 12/21/05, Barrie North [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be "cropped" as the screen adjusts.Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North -- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Peter J. Farrell wrote: I think it's safe to assume default installation settings for most users -- everybody else are fringe cases. That would leave us with... how many million 'fringe cases'? -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
In my banners/headers I almost always use background image...alternative is a % width. Or am I missing something/being dumb? Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Barrie North To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:46 AM Subject: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me cant get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I cant for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North
Re: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me cant get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I cant for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North Personally, I would make the image the background of the header div. It doesn't add anything but aesthetics and isn't required for a person to understand the page or the content. All the best, Jay
RE: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
I started to look at your CSS but got lost in all of the empty rules. I realize you are using a template css file, it would help to clean it up before seeking advice. Not a rant, just a suggestion. I first thought that you might want to add a percentage based width to the image, but that would distort it. I then thought you could add a background color to the paragraph. It seems to have a transparent background that allows the image to sneak past. But that is just a bandaid. If you want the nifty rounded edges to remain, perhaps you could use the png/z-index method on allthatmalarkey.co.uk or is it com? You could have a white mask that sits on top of the header image, as the page is made smaller, the mask would move on top of the banner image. Try putting the image in the CSS, you can control it better (background image). Ted From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barrie North Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:46 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me cant get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I cant for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North
Re: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
Barrie North wrote: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ #headerbanner must be restyled so its width is reduced when the page-width is, for 'overflow: hidden' to work as intended. A set 'width: 717px;' will keep it at that width, no matter what. Too many conflicting styles and element-relations in the page as a whole to make scaling work reliable now, so you'll have to trim it up a bit first. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Title: Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Good Day! I will be out of the office December 21-22. If you require an immediate response during this time, please contact Steven Keith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): 919-882-1972. Capstrat will be closed Friday, December 23 and Monday, December 26. If you require an immediate response during this time, please contact me on my cell phone 919-475-7706. Otherwise, I will return your email on Tuesday, December 27. Thanks and have a great day! Best Regards, Virginia
[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Hi and thanks for your email. I am currently on leave from 20th December until the 10th of January on Christmas holidays. For urgent queries please contact Nicole Dixon on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks and have a fantastic festive season. Kind regards, Matt Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
Thanks for all the replies guys, In my banners/headers I almost always use background image...alternative is a % width. I need to do it as an image in the xhtml rather than css, it's a restriction of the CMS I am using it would help to clean it up before seeking advice Lol, all the main rules are now embedded. The extra sheet was just a production sheet I use. If you want the nifty rounded edges to remain The image could be square cornered. I just need it to slide under the newsflash background. I have cut down the page to bare minimum that shows the problem... http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ thanks for the help so far, keep it coming! Barrie ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] re: overflow
Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? You have a wrapper with a min-width of 760px so the container is never in an overflow situation. drew
RE: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Hey Drew, Well, I tried min-width 300px and then removed the min-width completely and it still didnt work :/ Barrie From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Drew Trusz Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 2:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be cropped as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North You've set the wrapper at min-width of 760px. The containing box for the image won't be in overflow condition at lesser widths. drew
[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Barrie North wrote: Hi all, I have a fluid layout and for the life of me can't get the image to be "cropped" as the screen adjusts. Here is the link: http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ If you resize the window the image will stay on top. I have played with z-index, overflow:hidden. I can't for the life of me get this to work. Anyone fancy jumping in and pointing out the obvious thing I am missing J ? Barrie North You've set the wrapper at min-width of 760px. The containing box for the image won't be in overflow condition at lesser widths. drew
[WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
On 12/21/05, Barrie North [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Drew, Well, I tried min-width 300px and then removed the min-width completely and it still didn't work :/ Barrie That's what I get for not trying the solution before profoundly pronouncing it. This one is better. If I remove the absolute positioning of the #headerbanner the headerimg clips. I didn't take all the images just the headerimg. There is still a scroll bar but the img clips. Haven't played with min-max or other absolutes to see if that affects the scroll. drew
RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Enough said. So nothing changes. Good. It would be nice if this could be properly documented in Mr Allsopp's new project. Bad examples are littered throughout the Web and do nothing to help novices or the greater good. -Original Message- From: Felix Miata Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 3:14 PM 100.01% on body serves multiple purposes. Briggs is really no one deserving the status of example to repeatedly point people to. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes
Exactly so. I have, however, noticed that I also need to apply a 100% font-size to - td, ul, ol, li, p, form - to stop inheritance problems though. This seems to be erratic and something I still haven't completely worked out. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James O'NeillSent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 1:37 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Re: Setting Up Font Sizes 100.01% on body and then em's for the rest This prevents scaling issues with IE and older versions of Operahttp://www.freexenon.com/2005/10/css-fonts-and-font-sizing.html -- __"Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!"www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
We have to start somewhere and building for the majority would seem to make sense, otherwise why would we even bother how our sites looked in IE? :) That being said, we are also all about making the Web accessible for 'everyone'. In the case of people who change their browser settings, they have done so for a reason. We can only guess at what that reason might be. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 4:05 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes Peter J. Farrell wrote: I think it's safe to assume default installation settings for most users -- everybody else are fringe cases. That would leave us with... how many million 'fringe cases'? -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
My greatest discovery was seeing how images could be sized using % at WebEssentials. :) My greatest let-down was learning that it wasn't supported in IE. :( -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 8:22 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes
Nice work Georg. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2005 3:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Setting Up Font Sizes Samuel Richardson wrote: What's the best, cross-browser supported way to setup font sizes in CSS documents? Watch out for this one... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_13.html ...and this one... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_03_04.html regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
There's no prize Graham but I'm gonna say, Aww...shucks anyway. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Graham Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Hi Terrence, The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you please let me know the source of this info? Anybody else have an opinion on this? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Terrence Wood Date: 12/21/2005 4:22 PM The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
best things i learned this year- 1)the star selector hack and before that the underscore hack ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
kvnmcwebn wrote: best things i learned this year- 1)the star selector hack and before that the underscore hack Best thing I learned this year- 1) How to stop using hacks ;-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Semantics in mark-up. Minimize Div's and Span use. Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display: inline-block; thing... All the best, Jay Paul Noone wrote: It's a God-send. If only it had been properly explained sooner. Fortunately my recent conversion to virtually tableless websites means I do't have many changes to make. :) -- Paul A Noone Webmaster, ASHM [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Vlad Alexander (XStandard) Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. Hi Terrence, The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you please let me know the source of this info? Anybody else have an opinion on this? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Terrence Wood Date: 12/21/2005 4:22 PM The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary="There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type." (yep.. "rowgroup" is jargon, but most people got it... you could say "group of rows") HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Transition from tables to web standards is one of the goals I didn't achieve this year. But finding this list was, for sure, one of the best things of the year. Learnt LOT of things, and still have lots more to learn... Migrating completely to Web Standards is one of them (and it's in the top of the list) Cheers! AlvAro - 2005/12/21, Rachel Radford [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sheesh, I've learnt everything this year! Transition from tables to web standards :D The most revolutionary of all would probably creating forms using labels, field sets etc. instead of tables. The coolest would be style-switching (I know it's not new - but new to me in 2005!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 10:22 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Critic
Hey Cheree, I can't say that you offended anyone. I see nothing in your writing, or anyone elses to suggest otherwise. If you follow the tips that the other members have posted here, I am sure you will do fine. Please don't be hesitate to ask for assistance, or to critic it in the future. That is what we are here for, among other things. Welcome to the group. On 12/21/05, Boteler, Cheree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone: I apologize for sending this site critic too early, I definitely jumped the gun asking for a critic. I will be making a bunch of changes and make sure to validate all my code before I ask for a site critic in the future. Thank you so much to those of you who, very graciously, gave me some very useful comments and suggestions. If I offended anyone, please accept my apology. Sincerely, Cheree -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James O'Neill Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Critic Cheree, One of the first things I will say it looks like you might be writing this in MS Frontpage! You have a lot of inline javascipt: Your may want to take a look at Unobtrusive Javascript http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/ Keeping your javascript in an external file will be more efficient and make it easier to maintain. Sierra Pacific Counties: This can be done in all CSS (AlistAPart has great examples).A CSS solution will be more search engine friendly and accessible. Nevada Industrial Parks sections: You can create this using headers and Paragraph tags instead of multiple br tags. This type of solution will be more semantically correct. h2 a href=industrialparks/index.htmNevada Industrial Parks/a/h2 pView a list of industrial parks within Nevada./p h2a href=taxes.htmNevada Taxes/Incentives/ah2 pThe incentives of doing business in Nevada are expansive. Nevada boasts one of the most liberal tax structures in the nation and from a tax-planning perspective, the return on investment in the form of tax saving dollars can be enormous. Explore the numerous advantages of doing business in Nevada./p h2a href=documents/overview.pdfNorthern Nevada Overview/a/h2 . Contact Info Section: A similar solution of using headers would be good and more semantically correct. Also a definition list would be a good set of tags to use here for the pictures and associated information. h2CONTACT INFO/h2 dl dta href=about.htm#simsimg src=images/grant.gif alt=Grant Sims align=left border=0 height=57 width=45Grant Sims/a/dt ddManagerbr 775.834.5742br a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/a/p /dd dta href=about.htm#woodringimg src=images/brad.gif alt=Brad Woodring align=right border=0 height=57 width=48Brad Woodring/adt ddExecutivebr 775.834.3716br a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/a/p /dd /dl I will not go into the multiple h1 issue. Some believe that there should only be one H1 per page, like me, and the rest believe that it is OK! The specification sure does not help. My opinion is that there should only be one h1 per page, take it for what it is worth. =) Just some thoughts to get you going! Similar things can be said of the other site as well! Good luck, Jim! -- __ Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft! www.freexenon.com (Consulting) www.arionshome.com (Personal) __ Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.com Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards http://www.maccaws.org/ Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/ Web Standards Group http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/ Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- -- Nathan Wheatley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow
Hi all, I have had to change the url to: http://compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/slideproblem.html Barrie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barrie North Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:36 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Could really use some help with image overflow Thanks for all the replies guys, In my banners/headers I almost always use background image...alternative is a % width. I need to do it as an image in the xhtml rather than css, it's a restriction of the CMS I am using it would help to clean it up before seeking advice Lol, all the main rules are now embedded. The extra sheet was just a production sheet I use. If you want the nifty rounded edges to remain The image could be square cornered. I just need it to slide under the newsflash background. I have cut down the page to bare minimum that shows the problem... http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomlashack/ thanks for the help so far, keep it coming! Barrie ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Not the best thing I learnt, but the best thing I did: going to Web Essentials. I can't wait for next year. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
On 12/21/05, Barrie North [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Drew, Well, I tried min-width 300px and then removed the min-width completely and it still didn't work :/ Barrie Only way I was able to eliminate the scroll is to make the headerimg a background image (as someone previously suggested). The image has a width so when it is used in the foreground that width becomes the minimum width the page can be reduced to. A page will only shrink to the size of the smallest irreducible element -- the headerimg in this case. You can see how this works by taking out the wrapper width and then seeing where the scroll starts. If your eyes and sense of proportion are better than mine, you can see this even with the wrapper width left in place.
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Best new bit of knowledge for me in 2005? XSL. If you know and enjoy using CSS, dive into XSL; it'll rock your world :) hoping everyone has a safe and happy holiday season, Andrew.
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Two of the best things I've picked up this year include: * minimizing container and wrapper DIVs, writing minimalist CSS * I learned this last year, but still love it to death: margin: 0 20px 10px 0; instead of writing margin-top, margin-bottom, etc. Francesco Sanfilippo Web Architect and Software Developer http://www.blackcoil.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 402-932-5695 home office 402-676-3011 mobile Professional web developer and Internet consultant with 10 years experience. Specializing in ASP.NET, C#, SQL Server, CSS/XHTML, and digital photography. Founder and developer of URL123.com - now serving 2 million clicks per month. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Lakshmi Satyanarayana/ESS/NSW_AG is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 22/12/2005 and will not return until 03/01/2006. For Infolink, Lawlink or any other website Queries/Support please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this communication. If you have received this message in error please delete the email and notify the sender. Web Site http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
