Re: rel post, was: RE: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Tim]

I reckon you are being cynical Barney :-)
Consider colour blindness, 8% of adult males, you can allow a user to 
select a colour scheme.
Consider screen size, alternative stylesheets can improve presentation 
of different devices.
I use seven different  linked stylesheets on everypage, hardly anyone 
uses them, but a few people really want and like them.


The first stylesheet lined is the default one loaded:
type="text/css" title="Black Blue" />


Other linked stylesheet are "alternative"
media="screen" type="text/css"title="Black Gold" />


I allow users to select the stylesheet they prefer with Javascript.
Also in the browser menu there is usually an option to select a 
stylesheet.
It is never presented to the user by the browser, they need to find it 
unless the rel attribute matches the device then it is automatically 
selected.

A menu option like "Use Style".

http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Access/index.html#colourCSSstyle

Tim

On 16/03/2007, at 2:33 AM, Ted Drake wrote:


 Barney,
Do you have any idea where that article was or who wrote it? I'd like 
to

read this.
Thanks
Ted


A while back I read this article on the secret power of the rel 
property

in links... The author went about listing examples of different objects
you could link and different terms for what relevance they might have
(hence rel values). His enthusiasm was tangible, but he gave absolutely
no indication of how this would improve any appreciable aspect of your
page as far as user experience was concerned.

Am I just being cynical or is it really just a bit unnecessary?


Regards,
Barney






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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 15 Mar 2007, at 14:26:40, Barney Carroll wrote:


Grant Novey wrote:
Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your  
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape  
4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule.  
This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions.

Does that make sense?


This is the only practical advice I've seen on the topic.

A while back I read this article on the secret power of the rel  
property in links... The author went about listing examples of  
different objects you could link and different terms for what  
relevance they might have (hence rel values).


No, "rel" means the relationship of the linkee to the linker as  
implied by the act of linking. [1]


His enthusiasm was tangible, but he gave absolutely no indication  
of how this would improve any appreciable aspect of your page as  
far as user experience was concerned.


Am I just being cynical or is it really just a bit unnecessary?


You were maybe reading Paul Sowden's ALA article [2] about the  
capability, as specified in HTML 4.01 [3] (and thus XHTML 1.0) to  
specify persistent, preferred and alternate stylesheets using  
rel="stylesheet" and rel="alternate stylesheet" in conjunction with  
the title attribute.


Firefox supports this, and I would assume that Opera does too. IE, of  
course, doesn't.


For an example of its use, visit Jeremy Keith's   
in Firefox, then look under the "View" menu; the "Page Style" submenu  
will allow you to choose the "high contrast" stylesheet which Jeremy  
has specified in his document using rel="alternate stylesheet". So,  
far from being "a bit unnecessary", it can be invaluable for a reader  
whose poor eyesight means they can benefit from seeing a large text,  
high contrast version of the site.


Of course, there's nothing to stop people from including such links  
when they have several skins for their site, and allowing the user to  
choose which one they want.



[1] 
[1] 
[3] 

Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Thierry Koblentz]

Ted Drake wrote:
> So, if you are building a site that gets moderate to low traffic, go
> for the multiple css files and import or link. If you are building a
> site that will get significant traffic and your server load is
> important, you should consider consolidation.

Hi Ted,
I think this link was posted on this list a few days ago. It is an
interesting read as the author takes a different stance:
http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/webapps/serving-javascript-fast

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Martin Heiden]

Bob,

on Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 15:59 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:

> I've been modularizing like this for years:

> >
> >
> >

> Am I doing something wrong?

> Is there an advantage to importing over linking, or a limit to the  
> links (ie. should only one be linked, the rest imported and if so, why?

That depends on your environment. If you use an template based
approach to create your HTML (like Dreamweaver templates or any CMS)
there is no difference but the exclusion of older browsers when using
@import rules. But if you'd have to change every single HTML page when
adding or removing a reference to a CSS file... that would be much
easier to change if you only link one stylesheet which imports the
others.

It's just a question of how you want to organize your site.

I prefer to only link one stylesheet to have it separated from the
HTML. But that is personal preference.

regards

  Martin

 





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rel post, was: RE: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Ted Drake]

 Barney, 
Do you have any idea where that article was or who wrote it? I'd like to
read this.
Thanks
Ted


A while back I read this article on the secret power of the rel property 
in links... The author went about listing examples of different objects 
you could link and different terms for what relevance they might have 
(hence rel values). His enthusiasm was tangible, but he gave absolutely 
no indication of how this would improve any appreciable aspect of your 
page as far as user experience was concerned.

Am I just being cynical or is it really just a bit unnecessary?


Regards,
Barney

 




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RE: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Ted Drake]

Hi all

I used to think that modularizing css was a grand idea. It certainly makes
it easier to maintain your code.

At Yahoo!, we have a huge responsibility to reduce our server demands and
make pages load as fast as possible. We have found that it is actually
better to have one enormous css file than 5 or 6. It requires fewer http
requests and you can't count on the user having a cached version on their
machine.

So, if you are building a site that gets moderate to low traffic, go for the
multiple css files and import or link. If you are building a site that will
get significant traffic and your server load is important, you should
consider consolidation.

One other thing about imports; IE6 will get buggy if you only use imports.
You should have one css or js link to avoid problems.

Ted
Yahoo! Tech
(Now hiring! Looking for someone that knows CSS, JS, Standards,
accessibility, php, xml...  Send a resume to [EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Bob Schwartz]

Thanks Dave

In the section you indicated they have the following:

With two or more  tags, the browser presents the user with a  
list of all the ed style sheets. The user can then select one  
of the sheets, which is used to format the document. The other  
ed style sheets are ignored.


I've never seen this happen with any browser I've ever used.

Is the information on this site by any chance out-of-date by a lot?


There's a good explaination here:

http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/web/html/ch09_01.html

(Scroll down to 'Linked Versus Imported Style Sheets')

Dave.



From: Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:57:51 +0100

What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported  
or  linked - and why?


Bob




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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Tim]

It is a bit dated being written in 1997.

"Neither Netscape or Internet Explorer support multiple ed style 
sheets as proposed by the CSS standard."


That is not true anymore, they all support multiple linked stylesheets.

Tim

On 16/03/2007, at 1:39 AM, David Cameron wrote:


There's a good explaination here:

http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/web/html/ch09_01.html

(Scroll down to 'Linked Versus Imported Style Sheets')

Dave.



From: Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:57:51 +0100

What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or  
linked - and why?


Bob




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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Barney Carroll]

Linked css (and if @import is maintained, a css link after the embedded 
style) resolves certain flash of unstyled content IE6 bugs.



Regards,
Barney

Bob Schwartz wrote:

Rob,

I've been modularizing like this for years:

media="screen">
media="screen">
media="screen">


Am I doing something wrong?

Is there an advantage to importing over linking, or a limit to the links 
(ie. should only one be linked, the rest imported and if so, why?



Bob

I believe what you may have seen is the practice of

having  
in the page body for xhtml validation purposes

having a raft of @import statements in the linked CSS file

The principle being to modularise your CSS, having multiple separate 
CSS files


I don't think the real concern is for long since dead browsers such as 
IE4 and NN4


--
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk 


On 15/03/07, *Bob Schwartz* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Makes sense and I already knew that.

The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend
towards importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the
current "best practice" and if so, why.


Bob


Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers.
Netscape 4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the
@import rule. This allows you to target stylesheets to specific
browser versions.

Does that make sense?

On 3/15/07, *Bob Schwartz* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

What is the current "best practice" for style sheets -
imported or
linked - and why?

Bob




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--
Barney Carroll
Text Matters

Information design: we help explain things using
language | design | systems | process improvement
___
phone +44 (0)118 918 2382  email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web http://www.textmatters.com


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RE: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[David Cameron]

There's a good explaination here:

http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/web/html/ch09_01.html

(Scroll down to 'Linked Versus Imported Style Sheets')

Dave.



From: Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:57:51 +0100

What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or  linked 
- and why?


Bob




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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Bob Schwartz]

Rob,

I've been modularizing like this for years:

media="screen">
media="screen">



Am I doing something wrong?

Is there an advantage to importing over linking, or a limit to the  
links (ie. should only one be linked, the rest imported and if so, why?



Bob

I believe what you may have seen is the practice of

having "screen"> in the page body for xhtml validation purposes

having a raft of @import statements in the linked CSS file

The principle being to modularise your CSS, having multiple  
separate CSS files


I don't think the real concern is for long since dead browsers such  
as IE4 and NN4


--
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk


On 15/03/07, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Makes sense and I already knew that.

The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend  
towards importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the  
current "best practice" and if so, why.



Bob

Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your  
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape  
4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule.  
This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions.


Does that make sense?

On 3/15/07, Bob Schwartz < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or
linked - and why?

Bob




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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Rob Kirton]

Bob

I believe what you may have seen is the practice of

having  in the
page body for xhtml validation purposes
having a raft of @import statements in the linked CSS file

The principle being to modularise your CSS, having multiple separate CSS
files

I don't think the real concern is for long since dead browsers such as IE4
and NN4

--
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk


On 15/03/07, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Makes sense and I already knew that.

The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend towards
importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the current "best
practice" and if so, why.


Bob

Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and
below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule. This allows you to
target stylesheets to specific browser versions.

Does that make sense?

On 3/15/07, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or
> linked - and why?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Barney Carroll]

Grant Novey wrote:
Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your 
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and 
below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule. This allows 
you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions.


Does that make sense?


This is the only practical advice I've seen on the topic.

A while back I read this article on the secret power of the rel property 
in links... The author went about listing examples of different objects 
you could link and different terms for what relevance they might have 
(hence rel values). His enthusiasm was tangible, but he gave absolutely 
no indication of how this would improve any appreciable aspect of your 
page as far as user experience was concerned.


Am I just being cynical or is it really just a bit unnecessary?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Bob Schwartz]

Makes sense and I already knew that.

The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend towards  
importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the current  
"best practice" and if so, why.



Bob

Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your  
stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape  
4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule.  
This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions.


Does that make sense?

On 3/15/07, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or
linked - and why?

Bob




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Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Grant Novey]

Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your stylesheet
rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and below and IE 4
and below do not support the @import rule. This allows you to target
stylesheets to specific browser versions.

Does that make sense?

On 3/15/07, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or
linked - and why?

Bob




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[WSG] style sheets - best practices

[Bob Schwartz]

What is the current "best practice" for style sheets - imported or  
linked - and why?


Bob




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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Kenji.Walter]

I am out of the office from Friday 16th of March and will be back on
Wednesday 21st of March.

Kenji


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