Re: [WSG] scope, cols and colgroups

[Stuart Foulstone]

Surely you don't mean that ;-)

On Sat, June 30, 2007 2:49 am, Chris Price wrote:
>
> My thinking was that my real aim is to make the data useful so just
> making it valid or logical may not be my prime concern.
>
> Kind Regards
> --
> Chris Price
>
> Choctaw
>



-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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[WSG] Site Build It and CSS???

[Christian Montoya]

Dear list,

I have a potential client who would like me to redesign her website
with CSS (hooray!).

Her current site runs on Site Built It! and she would like to remain
with that system:
http://buildit.sitesell.com/main/home.html


From the looks of it, SBI! is archaic and I'm wondering how hard it is

to make a CSS template for it.

Has anyone on this lists worked with it in the past? Please let me
know how it is.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 30 Jun 2007, at 11:34 AM, Sander Aarts wrote:

My 'skip to' menu is like a map of the page and I believe it benefits 
more people than it hinders.


Can't argue with belief. If it works for you (but more importantly, for 
your visitors), go for it.


But at the risk of presuming to take up Michael's pov for him, I 
understood him to be questioning whether making a page more complex 
actually improves usability. OK, your pages might be complex, and so 
you feel the need to provide 'road maps' for people to find their way 
around more easily - but if the page is so complex that you need to 
provide a map of the navigation and content, don't you think that maybe 
your page is too complicated? It suggests a review of the IA as a 
whole.
(Granted, I have no idea of the content of your site, so I accept I'm 
talking in a general sense, but still...)


Taken to (an admittedly illogical) extreme, you'd end up with a page, a 
map of skip links to explain what's there, and a map of the map to 
explain what's there, and...


Do you do any user testing with the target group of visitors for whom 
you're providing this extra 'benefit' to see if it actually works for 
them? Or is it just your belief?


N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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Re: [WSG] scope, cols and colgroups

[Chris Price]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:


On Jun 28, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Chris Price wrote:

I have built a simplified table that illustrates this at 
http://choctaw.co.uk/tabletest/

Your page is invalid.
1. a  cannot be nested in another 

is not really clear.
The html5 draft can help:
 


2. you have a xml syntax in there: 
 is _not_ an empty element, it cannot use self closing syntax.


Thanks for that. There is a lot of information in both those links (I've 
seen the W3C one before).


I went to the webaim.org website which has much simpler examples (but 
then its not defining the spec).


My thinking was that my real aim is to make the data useful so just 
making it valid or logical may not be my prime concern.


Kind Regards
--
Chris Price

Choctaw

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.choctaw.co.uk

Tel. 01524 825 245
Mob. 0777 451 4488

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional

~~~
-+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
~~~

Choctaw Media Limited is a company
registered in England and Wales
with company number 04627649

Registered Office:
Lonsdale Partners,
Priory Close,
St Mary's Gate,
Lancaster LA1 1XB
United Kingdom




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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Tate Johnson]

On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote:


I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?


It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
Javascript libraries.



The problem with using the  tag to embed content such as  
flash presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are  
"disabled" and users must click the object to "activate" it. This is  
the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and  
took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include  
embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash).


I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and  
easy to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users  
without flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support  
alternate content as well.


SWFobject --> http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

- Tate


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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Sander Aarts]

Nick Gleitzman schreef:


On 30 Jun 2007, at 9:58 AM, Sander Aarts wrote:

> So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors 
to your site then?


You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking 
about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less 
usable/accessible for cognitively challenged people?


I think that was an ironic reference to the KISS principle...


Ah, another challenge ;-)  Only after a quick search I found out what 
you (and probably Michael as well) were refering to: "Keep It Simple 
Stupid". I already knew the phrase, but "KISS" triggered some other 
images in my mind ;-)



But what is 'simple'?
A text-only website may be optimal for assistive technology like sreen 
readers or braille, but it is totally inaccessible for illiterate 
people, who are probably better served with images/animation/video.


Most websites I build these days are stuffed with all sorts and levels 
of navigation and different types of content. I don't create the 
interaction or visual design myself so all I can really do is making 
these parts of the page as accessible as possible. Trying to achieve 
that, my main focus is that the content and navigation still work and 
make sense even if JavaScript and CSS are turned off and when the 
keyboard is used for navigation. Therefor I add extra info to the page 
which is not visible within the viewport of the browser when CSS is 
supported. This includes a 'skip to' menu, navigation headers and 
additional texts to indicate which menu links are selected. This doesn't 
make the document simpler, but I believe it makes it easier to comprehend.


My 'skip to' menu is like a map of the page and I believe it benefits 
more people than it hinders.


cheers,
Sander



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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 30 Jun 2007, at 9:58 AM, Sander Aarts wrote:

> So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors 
to your site then?


You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking 
about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less usable/accessible 
for cognitively challenged people?


I think that was an ironic reference to the KISS principle...

N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Sander Aarts]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schreef:

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sander Aarts

Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:20 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?




  
I alway make skip links to all major parts of the page, being 
the different levels of navigation, main content, sub content 
(side bar) and sometimes even the breadcrumb 



So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors to
your site then?


You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking 
about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less usable/accessible 
for cognitively challenged people?



cheers,
Sander


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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Fernando Longo]

I will return on Monday 9th of July 2007.

Please contact Hei Meng Wong < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > if you require assistance. 

All the best.


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Re: [WSG] scope, cols and colgroups

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jun 28, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Chris Price wrote:

I thought I had scope, cols and colgroups figured out until I built  
a table that clearly showed that I hadn't.


I have built a simplified table that illustrates this at http:// 
choctaw.co.uk/tabletest/


I want all all min columns coloured green and max columns coloured  
yellow but more than that I want to know where my logic has gone  
wrong.

Your page is invalid.
1. a  cannot be nested in another 

is not really clear.
The html5 draft can help:


2. you have a xml syntax in there: 
 is _not_ an empty element, it cannot use self closing syntax.

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






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RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[michael.brockington]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sander Aarts
>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:20 PM
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
>

>
>I alway make skip links to all major parts of the page, being 
>the different levels of navigation, main content, sub content 
>(side bar) and sometimes even the breadcrumb 

So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors to
your site then?

Mike


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?


It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
Javascript libraries.

In terms of alternate content, this is unlikely to be anything much
beyond an invitation to download Flash (tho' if you believe the stats,
c.97% of users have it installed anyway). I think it  may be worth
investing more time in looking at captioning the Flash movies.

Thanks again,
David


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