RE: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
http://rahulgonsalves.com/research/site/ I'm throwing together a quick site to try and fund my travel to an accessibility conference. I haven't had too much time to check it, or think it through, but I would appreciate a page check, and general suggestions/comments. Also, I don't have access to Internet Explorer; does it behave /reasonably well/ in that browser? I just had a look using IE6. Some of the drop-caps (class=oops) are slightly chopped off at the top (looks a little strange but still readable and the overall layout is intact) When I make the browser window small the Contact block at the bottom drops below the Home block (it doesn't in Firefox) but it doesn't look too bad. (often that kind of thing in IE is a problem but in this case it looks ok) I also had a quick look with lynx It looks ok - quite usable on lynx. (using lynx is good quick way to see what a page looks like on a browser that has no css, table, image, javascript or mouse support). James Jeffery wrote: - Class and ID names are not semantic. id=left would make no sense if you moved it to the right. Good point. - Why do you have your text blocks all over the place? I think they would look better if they were all left aligned and keep the navigation to the right. I get the impression he did that deliberately as a statement of visual design (which if it doesn't affect usability can be somewhat a matter of taste) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] SIte Maps?
I have never done a site map/index. I have Googled, but the results seem complicated, at least for a newcomer to site maps. I want to provide a way for visitor to a site to get where they want easily. Of course, the basic structure of the site is key, but when, e.g., there is a link to an obscure (but relevant) aspect of the content, it would be nice if he/she could find it. Any links or pointers to creating such an index/map would be most welcome. Needless to say, standards and accessibility are important . . . Thanks, Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
On Nov 18, 2007 1:19 AM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Jeffery wrote: Not every anchor needs extra advisory information, so I don't see an issue here. The title attribute is optional, but a title can help to clearly and accurately describe a link and for a website thats based around accessibility he should be using the title attribute where needed. But his links don't need it in this case. So your saying that before a user reads the content of the home page they are expected to know whats on the My Project page? Keep in mind users who use assistive devices to browse the web might find it very difficult to navigate to other pages. You could sum up the page contents in the title so it saves the user clicking the link. Adding clarity when possibly needed is a good thing. /overAndOut *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
People with assistive technologies rarely benefit from 'title' attributes. They are not displayed by text browsers, they are not accessible using keyboard navigation (or devices that emulate keyboards) and they are not read by screen readers with default settings. They are only accessible to someone who uses a mouse and can hover it over the link, in which case it is not particularly difficult to go the extra step and click it. On top of that, excessive use of tooltips of any kind causes an obstacle for screen magnifier users, as they obscure a large proportion of the page even at relatively low magnification levels. So I have users very much in mind when I recommend that 'title' attributes should be used as little as possible. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 18 November 2007 10:32 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check On Nov 18, 2007 1:19 AM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Jeffery wrote: Not every anchor needs extra advisory information, so I don't see an issue here. The title attribute is optional, but a title can help to clearly and accurately describe a link and for a website thats based around accessibility he should be using the title attribute where needed. But his links don't need it in this case. So your saying that before a user reads the content of the home page they are expected to know whats on the My Project page? Keep in mind users who use assistive devices to browse the web might find it very difficult to navigate to other pages. You could sum up the page contents in the title so it saves the user clicking the link. Adding clarity when possibly needed is a good thing. /overAndOut *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
[quote cite=http://juicystudio.com/article/using-title-attribute.php;] Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the title as a tool tip (a short message that appears when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the linked resource. [quote cite=http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html;] Assistive technologies provide different levels of support for speaking the title attribute for an anchor element. JAWS 7.0 will speak either the link text or the title attribute for a link depending upon a JAWS setting. This setting can be changed temporarily or permanently within JAWS. However, it is awkward to read both the link text and the title attribute for a link. WindowEyes 5.5 has a hot key, ins-E, that will speak additional information, including the title attribute, for the item with focus. Home Page Reader 3.04 will speak the the URL of the current page and title attribute of any element with focus when the control-shift-F1 keys are pressed simultaneously. Some do, some don't. I would rather provide to those that do and give the disabled a greater benifit for those that make use of the title attribute. It would be wrong *not* to use the title attribute when you could be helping others make more sense of your page. Its like saying dont think about users with older browsers, they are the minority. Every user counts. If a user wants to magnify the screen there are alternative methods for making link text bigger, there is no alternative method for a user to make sense of link text. James On Nov 18, 2007 5:44 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People with assistive technologies rarely benefit from 'title' attributes. They are not displayed by text browsers, they are not accessible using keyboard navigation (or devices that emulate keyboards) and they are not read by screen readers with default settings. They are only accessible to someone who uses a mouse and can hover it over the link, in which case it is not particularly difficult to go the extra step and click it. On top of that, excessive use of tooltips of any kind causes an obstacle for screen magnifier users, as they obscure a large proportion of the page even at relatively low magnification levels. So I have users very much in mind when I recommend that 'title' attributes should be used as little as possible. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 18 November 2007 10:32 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check On Nov 18, 2007 1:19 AM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Jeffery wrote: Not every anchor needs extra advisory information, so I don't see an issue here. The title attribute is optional, but a title can help to clearly and accurately describe a link and for a website thats based around accessibility he should be using the title attribute where needed. But his links don't need it in this case. So your saying that before a user reads the content of the home page they are expected to know whats on the My Project page? Keep in mind users who use assistive devices to browse the web might find it very difficult to navigate to other pages. You could sum up the page contents in the title so it saves the user clicking the link. Adding clarity when possibly needed is a good thing. /overAndOut *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
If a user wants to magnify the screen there are alternative methods for making link text bigger People don't spend hundreds of pounds on magnifiers to do something that any browser can do. Most sites would break horribly if you increased the text to even 4x its normal size, and many people run much higher magnification levels than that. Magnifiers also do much more, such as colour substitution or inversion, and of course they magnify everything including the browser chrome, not just the text. At 800x600 resolution and 4x magnification, even a relatively small tooltip can obscure nearly a quarter of the screen, and it is not always obvious how to get rid of it if the active area of the link is larger than the text. And of course there is no way to turn off the tooltips. So on balance I believe that a few people benefit from 'title' attributes, a few people are negatively impacted and they are irrelevant to vast majority of people. I therefore recommend only using them when really necessary, in which case you should really be thinking more about why your link text isn't adequate. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 18 November 2007 19:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check [quote cite=http://juicystudio.com/article/using-title-attribute.php;] Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the title as a tool tip (a short message that appears when the pointing device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about the nature of the linked resource. [quote cite=http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html;] Assistive technologies provide different levels of support for speaking the title attribute for an anchor element. JAWS 7.0 will speak either the link text or the title attribute for a link depending upon a JAWS setting. This setting can be changed temporarily or permanently within JAWS. However, it is awkward to read both the link text and the title attribute for a link. WindowEyes 5.5 has a hot key, ins-E, that will speak additional information, including the title attribute, for the item with focus. Home Page Reader 3.04 will speak the the URL of the current page and title attribute of any element with focus when the control-shift-F1 keys are pressed simultaneously. Some do, some don't. I would rather provide to those that do and give the disabled a greater benifit for those that make use of the title attribute. It would be wrong *not* to use the title attribute when you could be helping others make more sense of your page. Its like saying dont think about users with older browsers, they are the minority. Every user counts. If a user wants to magnify the screen there are alternative methods for making link text bigger, there is no alternative method for a user to make sense of link text. James On Nov 18, 2007 5:44 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People with assistive technologies rarely benefit from 'title' attributes. They are not displayed by text browsers, they are not accessible using keyboard navigation (or devices that emulate keyboards) and they are not read by screen readers with default settings. They are only accessible to someone who uses a mouse and can hover it over the link, in which case it is not particularly difficult to go the extra step and click it. On top of that, excessive use of tooltips of any kind causes an obstacle for screen magnifier users, as they obscure a large proportion of the page even at relatively low magnification levels. So I have users very much in mind when I recommend that 'title' attributes should be used as little as possible. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 18 November 2007 10:32 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check On Nov 18, 2007 1:19 AM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Jeffery wrote: Not every anchor needs extra advisory information, so I don't see an issue here. The title attribute is optional, but a title can help to clearly and accurately describe a link and for a website thats based around accessibility he should be using the title attribute where needed. But his links don't need it in this case. So your saying that before a user reads the content of the home page they are expected to know whats on the My Project page? Keep in mind users who use assistive devices to browse the web might find it very difficult to navigate to other pages. You could sum up the page contents in the title so it saves the user clicking the link. Adding clarity when
Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
James Jeffery wrote: Some do, some don't. I would rather provide to those that do and give the disabled a greater benifit for those that make use of the title attribute. Link text should make sense to *everybody*. If they don't, don't just fix it for the poor disabled users, fix it for everybody. Your intentions are well meant, but misplaced IMHO. And, as I was saying, it's wrong to say you *should* provide title as if the original poster made an omission. This is all opinion, not dogma. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
I see where you are coming from, in a way. It seems that there is a problem, not with developers, but with accessibility overall if there is no way to provide additional information for link text. Anchor text such as The Future or Our Projects may be intended, but to the average user they can scan the page quickly and get an idea about what The Future is relating to. For users who find it difficult to read or view pages for whatever reason trying to figure out where that link takes you is going to be hard. That visitor may be a customer or it may be someone trying to find information. It would be better to have something like: a href=future.html title=The future of APR Electrical Components CorperationThe Future/a Maybe in the new versions of HTML of WCAG they should think about this, providing addition information. Primarily aimed at people with disabilities but its there for the average Joe aswell. Great discussion though, some valid points on both ends i feel. James On Nov 18, 2007 7:54 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Jeffery wrote: Some do, some don't. I would rather provide to those that do and give the disabled a greater benifit for those that make use of the title attribute. Link text should make sense to *everybody*. If they don't, don't just fix it for the poor disabled users, fix it for everybody. Your intentions are well meant, but misplaced IMHO. And, as I was saying, it's wrong to say you *should* provide title as if the original poster made an omission. This is all opinion, not dogma. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AccessResearch // Page Check
James Jeffery wrote: Anchor text such as The Future or Our Projects may be intended, but to the average user they can scan the page quickly and get an idea about what The Future is relating to. If they're written and constructed well, even completely blind users with screen readers can scan a page surprisingly quickly. I was a bit startled first time I heard the audio output of an experienced JAWS user...their speed setting was so high I could hardly make out a word of what was being read. In addition, this user skimmed the page very quickly, jumping from paragraph to paragraph, backtracking, slowing it down at certain points, speeding it up, etc. a href=future.html title=The future of APR Electrical Components CorperationThe Future/a This particular situation would be a non-issue if the actual TITLE element of the page clearly identified it as APR Electrical Components Corporation. TITLE is read out by default to screen reader users as well as the start of the page. Then the Future obviously relates to the future of APR. Links should make sense out of context as much as possible, but they do still live within the context of the site/page they're in. Great discussion though, some valid points on both ends i feel. Absolutely. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
