Re: [WSG] website fonts
At 6/22/2009 08:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote: To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents. Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours. Oh, it doesn't stop with fonts! Some website producers are arrogant enough to force text and images on the visitor instead of allowing them to enjoy the default text and images they have written for their own browser. It's shocking; simply shocking. If people actually wanted to read the text, see the images, and enjoy the graphic and typographic design of other people (give me a break!), they would have connected these computers into a world-wide network and permitted us to browse around looking at one another's... hey... wait a minute... hmm, let me rethink this one. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
Felix Miata wrote: On 2009/06/22 12:58 (GMT+1000) James Ellis composed: To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. I wish it was possible for users of all languages to set their preferred font for their language in all browsers. IT IS NOT possible. Doesn't matter which browser you use there are writing scripts for which a user can not set or specify a default font through the browsers user interface. The best you can do is write a stylesheet to override a sites CSS rules. But not all users are able to write their own stylesheets. Andrew -- Andrew Cunningham Senior Manager, Research and Development Vicnet State Library of Victoria 328 Swanston Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Ph: +61-3-8664-7430 Fax: +61-3-9639-2175 Email: andr...@vicnet.net.au Alt email: lang.supp...@gmail.com http://home.vicnet.net.au/~andrewc/ http://www.openroad.net.au http://www.vicnet.net.au http://www.slv.vic.gov.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***begin:vcard fn:Andrew Cunningham n:Cunningham;Andrew org:State Library of Victoria;Vicnet adr:;;328 Swanston Street;Melbourne;VIC;3000;Australia email;internet:andr...@vicnet.net.au title:Senior Manager, Research and Development tel;work:+61-3-8664-7430 tel;fax:+61-3-9639-2175 tel;cell:0421-450-816 note;quoted-printable:Projects:=0D=0A= http://www.openroad.net.au/=0D=0A= http://www.mylanguage.gov.au/ x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.vicnet.net.au/ version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] website fonts
On 2009/06/22 12:58 (GMT+1000) James Ellis composed: > Fonts : Nothing to stop anyone from specifying a font list and the generic > family at the end of the list. That way you can aim for the font you like > best, then the font which most people have (they may be the same) and then > less common fonts you still want to display, then the family. > e.g I did a site primarily for linux users and specified the font as: > "DejuVu Sans Condensed", FreeSans, Helvetica, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans- > serif; > The first two are quite common on Linux (Liberation is also a good, open > source, Verdana like font), Helvetica is a common Mac font, the last three > pick up 99.% (tm) of the slack and sans-serif picks up those browsers > without any of them installed. > Once you get to sans-serif, you are at the mercy of how the user or org has > configured the browser for sans-serif display. Some may set it to Times > Roman, > some to Comic Sans. It'd be nice to try and avoid that ;) To put what you wrote another way, with a font family list such as your example, the visitor is at the designer's mercy to see only the designer's choice of fonts, instead of the visitor's, even if the visitor has spent big money on high quality but uncommon fonts and chosen as default one of them. To actually see his choice, the visitor will have to set is browser to completely ignore the designer's font choices throughout all documents. Like Mark, I say let the visitor's choice be the choice applied to most content, with the designer specifying otherwise only to highlight or provide character, as in headings, emphasis, or menuing. On body at least, it should be enough to specify either serif or sans-serif (partial deference to visitor), or nothing at all (total deference to visitor). If the visitor wants Comic Sans, let him have it. It's his puter, not yours. -- "Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle."Proverbs 23:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:00:27 pm Mark Harris wrote: > Henry Mencia wrote: > > So you just have serif or sans serif in the font-family? > > Pretty much, unless a client specifies otherwise (and I'll try to talk > them around). > > The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, > is the perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and > the desire to make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers. Amen to that, in fact I'd suffix the pixel identical thing with " and Internet Explorer". It (IE) is probably the costliest burden in web design and development over the last 5 years at least. Fonts : Nothing to stop anyone from specifying a font list and the generic family at the end of the list. That way you can aim for the font you like best, then the font which most people have (they may be the same) and then less common fonts you still want to display, then the family. e.g I did a site primarily for linux users and specified the font as: "DejuVu Sans Condensed", FreeSans, Helvetica, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans- serif; The first two are quite common on Linux (Liberation is also a good, open source, Verdana like font), Helvetica is a common Mac font, the last three pick up 99.% (tm) of the slack and sans-serif picks up those browsers without any of them installed. Once you get to sans-serif, you are at the mercy of how the user or org has configured the browser for sans-serif display. Some may set it to Times Roman, some to Comic Sans. It'd be nice to try and avoid that ;) Cool site for further reading : http://www.sansseriftype.com/ Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] more on fonts
Don't see how it could be any clearer Paul ... :) On 23/06/09 8:39 AM, "Paul Novitski" wrote: > At 6/22/2009 05:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote: >> hi. >> well, the subject that i was taking, and the web page for pinciples of >> visual design, my professor, said i have to had fonts, in the style sheet. >> that was the requirmenet of this site i was doing for a fruit shop. > > > Just as a reality check, let me go over how this works. > > You don't have to have any particular fonts on your own computer in > order to designate them in a web page. > > You create a web page on your computer, upload it to the server, and > after that each visitor who sees the page downloads it to their > computer where it is displayed (rendered). It is the fonts installed > on each visitor's computer that determine how the text will be > displayed on their screens. > > If you specify font-families in the stylesheet, you're not DICTATING > what font must appear, you're only SUGGESTING which fonts you'd like > to appear. If a font you've requested isn't installed, it doesn't > show up; that simple. > > If you use the stylesheet to ask that some text be rendered in a very > common font such as Arial, it will be displayed in Arial on the vast > majority of visitors' computers. If you use a more unusual font, only > a small number of visitors might have that font and see it on the > page. Everyone else will see your 2nd or 3rd choice font for that text. > > For example, if your stylesheet says: > > h1 > { > font-family: "Gothic Rare", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; > } > > ...then the visitor's browser checks to see if it can find a match > with any of the fonts in the list. "Gothic Rare" will not be found > anywhere because I just made it up. Helvetica is far from universally > installed, but Arial is extremely common so most people will see the > text in Arial. If none of those three fonts is found, 'sans-serif' > tells the browser to use whatever its default sans serif font is > which might easily be different on every computer. > > A sans serif font is a font with no serifs. See also: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans_serif > > Does that help clarify any of this? > > Regards, > > Paul > __ > > Paul Novitski > Juniper Webcraft Ltd. > http://juniperwebcraft.com > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] more on fonts
At 6/22/2009 05:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote: hi. well, the subject that i was taking, and the web page for pinciples of visual design, my professor, said i have to had fonts, in the style sheet. that was the requirmenet of this site i was doing for a fruit shop. Just as a reality check, let me go over how this works. You don't have to have any particular fonts on your own computer in order to designate them in a web page. You create a web page on your computer, upload it to the server, and after that each visitor who sees the page downloads it to their computer where it is displayed (rendered). It is the fonts installed on each visitor's computer that determine how the text will be displayed on their screens. If you specify font-families in the stylesheet, you're not DICTATING what font must appear, you're only SUGGESTING which fonts you'd like to appear. If a font you've requested isn't installed, it doesn't show up; that simple. If you use the stylesheet to ask that some text be rendered in a very common font such as Arial, it will be displayed in Arial on the vast majority of visitors' computers. If you use a more unusual font, only a small number of visitors might have that font and see it on the page. Everyone else will see your 2nd or 3rd choice font for that text. For example, if your stylesheet says: h1 { font-family: "Gothic Rare", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; } ...then the visitor's browser checks to see if it can find a match with any of the fonts in the list. "Gothic Rare" will not be found anywhere because I just made it up. Helvetica is far from universally installed, but Arial is extremely common so most people will see the text in Arial. If none of those three fonts is found, 'sans-serif' tells the browser to use whatever its default sans serif font is which might easily be different on every computer. A sans serif font is a font with no serifs. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans_serif Does that help clarify any of this? Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] more on fonts
hi. well, the subject that i was taking, and the web page for pinciples of visual design, my professor, said i have to had fonts, in the style sheet. that was the requirmenet of this site i was doing for a fruit shop. cheers Marvin. E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com Msn: startrekc...@msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: WSG Digest
Thank you for your email. I am out of the office until the 29th. I will be checking my email intermittently until then. If you have an urgent support query, please send an SMS to the support number you have been given and I'll respond as soon as possible. Best regards, Phil Houghton Managing Director, Dreamberry Design Ltd *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
At 6/22/2009 12:24 AM, matt andrews wrote: 2009/6/22 Mark Harris > The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, is the perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and the desire to make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers. > > Let the control go to the user, focus on getting information out there. You can't control everything, just make it make sense. Absolutely. This is probably old hat (where did *that* phrase come from?) to most on this list, but if you haven't come across it before, "A Dao of Web Design", a short article by John Allsopp (of Westciv and Web Directions fame) is a must-read: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ With respect, a few points: - Allsop's article (which, although written in 2000 and out-dated in some of its specific references to browser development, is completely relevant today) primarily advises us not to try to control font-size. With regard to font-family he writes, "With CSS, you can suggest a number of fonts, and cover as many bases as possible. But don't rely on a font being available regardless of how common it is." So his philosophy DOES permit font-family suggestions and advises merely against RELYING on any particular font being available. To me this is a far cry from avoiding font-family suggestions in the stylesheet. - If we don't "rely" on the presence of particular font-families and let go of the desire to make the web pixel-identical in multiple browsers, then the philosophical problem goes away, does it not? - Even if we suggest fonts in the stylesheet, they're just suggestions. I don't consider this to be "controlling" the user agent. A suggested font will display if it's on the user's computer and otherwise default to something that is. The user has ultimate control in installing fonts of choice and overriding all stylesheets (including the default stylesheet the comes packaged with the browser) with their own. - CSS font-family suggestions are a perfect case of both graceful degradation and progressive enhancement. The browser ensures that the text will render if there is at least one font installed on the client computer, then the stylesheet can suggest a series of families that more closely approach the designer's ideal. It's a system guaranteed not to break on even the most rudimentary system, and will look better and better the more of the desired software (fonts) are installed. - I submit that suggesting serif and sans-serif in the stylesheet is exactly as controlling (that is, NOT) as suggesting Georgia or Lucida Sans. It is 'controlling' in the sense that it's suggesting to the user agent whether to use a serif font or not, but with no control whatsoever in determining whether a corresponding font resides on the user's computer. If I install even one serif font on my computer, your CSS rule of 'font-family: serif' will invoke that font unless I override it. If I install only sans-serif fonts on my computer, your CSS rule will ultimately be ignored and I'll see your "serif" text in my Helvetica or Univers. - There is no such thing as a web page without styling. Every browser comes with its own default stylesheets which will determine things like font-size, margins, and padding if not overridden by the author's or the user's own stylesheets. So we're not really living in a pure universe in which it's possible not to style. If you don't use a stylesheet at all, you're just asking the browser to apply its own, so by refusing to control you're not helping to create a situation of no control, you're simply passing the buck. As a Buddhist you can refuse to kill animals but as long as you're alive you can't avoid killing vegetables and microorganisms and you can't prevent the lion from taking down the antelope nor the spider the fly. Styling Happens. Get used to it. - Finally, if your relinquishing of control extends to not even suggesting font-families, what do you use stylesheets for? Unlike font-family suggestions, stipulations of color, margins, padding, and other properties really are commands and will be carried out in most browsers. {margin-left: 10px;} doesn't say to the browser "if you feel like it," it says "just do it." If you do use stylesheets at all, it strikes me as odd that you would take exception to named font-families, the one aspect of CSS that is the least controlling of all. Curiously, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
matt andrews wrote: 2009/6/22 Mark Harris The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, is the perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and the desire to make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers. Let the control go to the user, focus on getting information out there. You can't control everything, just make it make sense. Absolutely. This is probably old hat (where did *that* phrase come from?) to most on this list, but if you haven't come across it before, "A Dao of Web Design", a short article by John Allsopp (of Westciv and Web Directions fame) is a must-read: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ Yeah, John said it well. To me, that is the fundamental basis of web standards. ~mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
2009/6/22 Mark Harris > The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, is the > perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and the desire to > make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers. > > Let the control go to the user, focus on getting information out there. You > can't control everything, just make it make sense. Absolutely. This is probably old hat (where did *that* phrase come from?) to most on this list, but if you haven't come across it before, "A Dao of Web Design", a short article by John Allsopp (of Westciv and Web Directions fame) is a must-read: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***