Re: [WSG] Simple source ordered, 3-column liquid layout - testing request

[JonathanC]

Hi Stuart,

Looks OK in Safari 1.0, Firefox 1.0 and IE 5.2 (Mac OSX). The only 
problems occur when I try to reduce the width of the window - although it 
has to be a pretty dramatic reduction. 

Safari & Firefox both start to fall apart when the window gets to about 
605px wide (minus chrome): firstly the text in the left column drops to 
the bottom, then the text in the middle column starts to overlap the green 
of the left column, then the text in the right column drops to the bottom, 
then finally the 2 green areas merge into 1.

In IE, the middle column gets narrower and narrower (but everything 
otherwise stays in its place) until about 500px wide: the text in the 
middle column starts to poke out into the right column green, eventually 
overlapping the right column's text. Finally, at about 425px, both 2 outer 
columns' text drop to the bottom.

I guess this would only really be an issue if you were browsing with a 
PDA. If I saw this happening when I resized my window down, I'd resize it 
back up again until it looked acceptable.

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

Stuart Homfray wrote on 16/04/2005 09:53:38 AM:

> I've been playing with a source-ordered 3-column liquid layout and I've 
> come up with the following page 
> .
> 
> The CSS and the markup are relatively simple (obviously it's still in 
> the testing stage though!!) and I just wondered whether anyone might 
> have the time to take a look and see whether the layout falls over in a 
> particular browser, or if there's any comments, improvements, etc... 
> (Oh, and if you're not bothered about the two 'Faux columns', you can 
> remove the 'extraContainer' , cleaning up the markup a little 
more!)
> 
> I've tested in IE6, Firefox 1.0.3 and Opera 7.54 in Windows, and looked 
> at screengrabs in Safari 1.2.4, Mac IE 5.2.3, Mozilla 1.7.5 (Safari and 
> Mac IE info is what I'm looking for, mainly...)

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Re: [WSG] Any Safari 1.0 users out there?

[JonathanC]

Looks fine here.

(Safari 1.0, Mac OSX 10.2.8)

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/04/2005 02:16:51 PM:

> I wonder if someone could confirm something for me. I got a comment the 
> other day about a specific page at our site having major problems in 
> Safari 1.0. I don't actually have access to Safari 1.0, and the person 
> who made the comment now seems to have disappeared.
> 
> But, being a in the business of selling software to Mac customers, and 
> this being the opening page to our site, I'm a little paranoid about 
> something like this. I've actually worked on instinct and figured that 
> the problem was being caused by using an image replacement technique, 
> so I've ditched this and gone back to a good old inline image.
> I'd really appreciate it if someone who had Safari 1.0 could have a 
> look at this page for me.
> 
> http://www.westciv.com/style_master/index.html
> 
> And if it is a stinking wreck, are other pages the same?, eg
> 
> http://www.westciv.com/style_master/product_info/index.html
> 
> TIA
> 
> Maxine
> 
> Maxine Sherrin
> 
> web : westciv.com
> blog : http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/
> flickr : http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxine/
> 
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Re: [WSG] Web app guidance/site comment

[JonathanC]

https://monitor.hpa.com.au/rta/

Strange... looks fine in Firefox 0.9.3 (Mac OSX) but in IE5.2, it's 
completely unstyled!

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

- Original Message -
From: "Brendan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:21 PM
Subject: [WSG] Web app guidance/site comment


Greetings all,

I'm currently working on a web app that I have created in as much of a web
standards karma giving way as I can muster.

If I could get some feed back on this little number from the crowd out 
there
I would be most greatful. General tips and pointers are what I'm after.

If you look closely enough it might be blatantly obvious who this project 
is
for. Ok, if you're from Sydney Australia and drive a car/have a license 
that
is.

https://monitor.hpa.com.au/rta/ 

This is in no way a live product, and for the most part are just a bunch 
of
static HTML files. Expect no magic within! Or live database for that 
matter.

I have managed to keep the majority of pages valid in both HTML and CSS.
(When I typed that I felt I should get a badge or something?)

The only quirk I have with it is how some tables will wrap/drop below the
menu on IE in tight areas (narrow your browser on the home page). Is this 
to
be expected?

Thanks in advance for your time...



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Re: [WSG] Funny Left Margin in IE6

[JonathanC]

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Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs - slightly tangential

[JonathanC]

Mordechai Peller wrote on 06/12/2004 09:41:20 PM:

> Patrick Lauke wrote:
> 
> >...and discussing the finer points of semantics in a markup 
> language as coarse and unsuitable as HTML ends up being a tad futile
> >
> Futile? Perhaps sometimes. Though I must admit, when there is a good 
> reason to do so (what's a "good reason" is admittedly subjective) I find 

> splitting hairs to be enjoyable.

That reminds me of the Curator of Australian Art at the Art Gallery of NSW 
in the 1970s, Daniel Thomas, who was once accused of being terribly 
pedantic. To which he replied:
"No, not ... 'pedantic' exactly ..."

:-)

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au
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Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs

[JonathanC]

At the risk of getting this started up again... (I tend to read my WSG 
emails in a batch every day or so.)

Mordechai Peller wrote on 06/12/2004 09:31:41 PM:

> If breadcrumbs show where you are in the site you get:
> Level 1 > Level 2 > Level 3 > Level 4 > Level 5
> 
> If, on the other had, they show you where you've been, you get:
> Stop 1 > Stop 2 > Stop 3 > Stop 4 > Stop 5
> 
> Either way, the order describes a form of hierarchy.

Not really. "Level 1 > Level 2 > Level 3" is a hierarchy because Level 3 
is contained within Level 2, which is contained within Level 1, whereas 
the only connection between Stop 1, Stop 2 & Stop 3 is that the user 
viewed the pages in that order. He/she could just as easily viewed them in 
the OPPOSITE order.


Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au


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RE: [WSG] IE's New JavaScript Blocking Feature

[JonathanC]

I may be missing something here but when WinXP SP2 was installed on all 
the PCs at work, all it seemed to block were ("popup") windows that opened 
automatically (i.e. "onLoad"). A link that requires a click, such as:
  http://google.com/"; onclick="window.open(this.href, 
  'popupwindow','width=400,height=300,scrollbars=1,resizable=1');
  return false;">Google
seems to work just fine.

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 27/11/2004 06:06:50 PM:

> 
> Mark Harwood wrote:
> ---
> The best and only way i do pop-ups is
> 
> href="http://google.com/"; onclick="window.open(this.href, 'popupwindow',
> 'width=400,height=300,scrollbars,resizable');return false;"
> 
> this allows you to do whatever you like with the link and also makes it
> valid, right click-able and so forth.. 
> ---
> 
> Well I can see that it doesn't take long for the topics to 'off topic' 
in
> this list! :)
> 
> As for the fix ... With the snippet of JavaScript that Mark supplied 
above,
> I still get the information bar and no JavaScript run unless you choose 
to
> allow it. This was the main problem and reason for the post actually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Carriere
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 12:37 PM
> To: Web Standards Group
> Subject: [WSG] IE's New JavaScript Blocking Feature
> 
> I've got two questions but as they are different topics completely, I 
will
> separate them into two different threads. They kind of relate, but not
> enough, so here's the first one regarding IE's New JavaScript Blocking
> Feature:
> --
> 
> IE's new content blocking features are wreaking havoc on my methods and
> designs!
> 
> For the longest time I've been using the included JavaScript w/
> rel="external" 
(http://www.sitepoint.com/article/standards-compliant-world)
> method to have links open up new browser windows while keeping the code
> valid. I know that I've got to use these methods to keep the code valid 
as
> standards compliance outlines that you shouldn't opening new content in
> different windows. BUT! With some of my applications, I'd like to have 
new
> windows open while keeping my code valid anyway.
> 
> The extremely irritating this is, no IE has that lovely content blocker
> (added in with Service Pack 2) that cause the JavaScript to be blocked. 
Sure
> you can just tell it to include the content and off you go but for those
> that don't know any better, (and trust me, I to Tech Support for an ISP 
and
> there are a lot of people that don't know any better), it's a real pain 
and
> the chances that your pages will not be rendered properly are too high.
> 
> Any thoughts? Ideas?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> --
> LAWRENCE CARRIERE
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.lawrencecarriere.com
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Web Standards Eye Candy: http://www.scottschiller.com/

[JonathanC]

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Re: [WSG] Web Standards Eye Candy: http://www.scottschiller.com/

[JonathanC]

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[WSG] Online HTML text editor

[JonathanC]

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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

"Martin J. Lambert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/10/2004 11:28:07 PM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a
> > page requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0
> > transitional) just to make a font-size style cascade from body
> > through to td. 
> 
> 
> I believe it's simply that quirks mode follows older browser behavior,
> where td's did not inherit styles from body, or anything else outside
> of their table.  In standards mode, they do (correctly) inherit the
> styles.
> 
> Look at your pages in Win/IE 5 or anything older to see it, regardless
> of doctype.  This was also why, in the bad old days, every single
> table cell needed its own  tag - there was no way to set the
> style outside the table and have it be inherited.

Ah ha! That's exactly what I was wanting to know.
Thank you very much.

Regards,

Jonathan Coper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au



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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

Peter Goddard wrote on 04/10/2004 11:10:07 PM:

> I would recommend you read this short article. 
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/ 
> IMHO the setting of a DOCTYPE is an essential step in the migration 
> to standards based web development. You have a valid point that if 
> you want to simply set a font-family or size attribute for pages, 
> and that is all you want to do, then the doctype you employ is 
> largely irrelevant. But it should be mentioned that it would be 
> unusual in a site's design/re-design, that this is all you want to 
> accomplish with css. To be certain that browsers display the 
> presentational instructions consistently, a doctype is essential to 
> ensure browsers are in 'Standards' mode and not 'quirks' mode. 
> Not all browsers implement the css specification fully. We are still
> stuck with workarounds where browsers get their interpretation of 
> the rules 'wrong'. Even the major browsers interpret the basic box 
> model differently.
> Hopefully Mr Zeldman in his article will help make this clear. 
> He always makes perfect sense to me. 

Thanks, Peter. The article was indeed helpful. I sort of knew what 
doctypes were for but I didn't realise that something as basic as having 
text in a table cell inherit a style from the body required a valid 
doctype. Now I do. :-)

The trouble is, the (CMS-driven) website I look after has some pages (or 
page templates) with an incomplete doctype:
  
... and most with NO doctype at all!
(I didn't build this site, by the way; when it was created, I'd never even 
HEARD of CSS!)

I briefly added the HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype to the main template 
the other day, but it made the pages almost unreadable (tiny, tiny text), 
so I had to take it out again. Oh well, looks like I'll have to clone the 
template, add the doctype and go through the stylesheets bit by bit, 
checking on the front-end as I go. 

I'm sure you'll hear from me again. :-/

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

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Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

"Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/10/2004 10:54:20 
AM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:
> ...
> > How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to 
such 
> > a simple page?
> 
> The crucial part of my answer was: "If you know for sure that the markup 

> *is going to be invalid*"
> 
> The example you provide is of valid markup. I tried corrupting the code, 

> but interestingly, on Firefox and Opera, even when the markup is 
> blatantly broken, the doctype keeps the browser in standards mode (or 
> almost-standards mode, as the case may be). Interesting...seems the 
> wrong behaviour to me, but still interesting...

Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a page 
requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0 transitional) just to 
make a font-size style cascade from body through to td.

To recap: here are two pages, identical except for the presence or absence 
of a doctype declaration:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au



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[WSG] IE 6 Hover Bug?

[JonathanC]

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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

I was going to ask this question anyway, but then this thread started 
about the place of doctypes...

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

> > If you know for sure that the markup is going to be invalid, why 
bother
> > with a doctype at all? ...

OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>


  
  Table CSS test: Doctype HTML4 transitional
  



Paragraph



  
Top-left
Top-right
  
  
Bottom-left
Bottom-right
  






With this extremely simple stylesheet (styles.css):

body {
font-family: arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: .7em;
}

In Safari, Firefox & IE5.2Mac, this page appears as expected: the text in 
the paragraph and the table are the same size. Increase/decrease the 
browser font size and they grow/shrink together.

Now delete the  declaration and try again. This time, only 
the paragraph text follows the "body" style; the table text defaults to 
the browser's "normal" setting.

To save you from having to create the documents, here are the 2 versions:
 
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html

How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to such 
a simple page?

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 02/10/2004 12:04:24 AM:

> 
> I've settled with using the XHTML Transitional doctype, but that's only 
for
> new documents. For your older documents which don't have correct syntax, 
I
> agree with the other posts. I wouldn't use a doctype at all and let the
> browser go into quirks mode and do it's best to render. Slapping an 
XHTML
> doctype on those documents won't make them more forward compatible, only
> fixing the HTML would. It could actually make those documents less
> compatible because you are in essence lying to the browser about the
> content, and then hoping the browser doesn't mess up the rendering. 
> 
> ... under what cases should one use
> an XHTML doctype - practically speaking ...
> 
> I would say simply, you should use XHTML doctype if you actually have 
valid
> XHTML code in your document.
> 
> With that said here's some resources I find helpful, if you'd like to 
dig
> more.
> 
> http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/doctype.html
> http://www.quirksmode.org/about/quirksmode.html
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/betterliving/
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/
> http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?DOCTYPE
> 
> Chris
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Nando
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:12 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning
> 
> I'll be reworking the markup and the layout approach they've used ...
> it's just that i anticipate they'll have a reason for using the
> doctype ... cuz it doesn't jump up there by itself, that i'll need to
> intelligently and authoritively discuss with them. Much of the code is
> actually generated out of a Struts jsp app. So i'm looking for
> resources and experienced opinions ... under what cases should one use
> an XHTML doctype - practically speaking ...
> 
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:40:43 +0100, Patrick H. Lauke
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Neerav wrote:
> > 
> > > so go for html 4 transitional validation if the clients tables will
> > > always be invalid
> > 
> > If you know for sure that the markup is going to be invalid, why 
bother
> > with a doctype at all? It's a bit like putting a "may contain nuts"
> > sticker on a bag of peanuts...
> > 
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> > _
> > re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> > [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> > www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> > http://redux.deviantart.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > **
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> > 
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> > Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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> > 
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> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> > 
> >
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>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [WSG] MT hacked into by a spammer

[JonathanC]

The URL has been changed to 
http://www.elise.com/mt/archives/000767attacked.php (explanation on that 
page).

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2004 06:11:43 AM:

> http://www.elise.com/mt/archives/000767hacked.php


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Re: [WSG] My Favorite XHTML/CSS/JavaScript/PHP Editor - NO WYSIWYG

[JonathanC]

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Re: [WSG] Peek-a-Boo Bug in FireFox???

[JonathanC]

MacOSX 10.2.8 - Firefox 0.9.3 & Safari 1.0

http://fs.neester.com/ - Look pretty much the same here.

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 18/09/2004 05:03:15 PM:

> On 9/17/04 11:38 PM "Chris Stratford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this 
out:
> 
> > Need some help here...
> > http://fs.neester.com/
> > 
> 
> Somethin's real weird indeed.
> 
> The site looks totally different in Safari than Firefox. Safari has 
orange
> menu boxes etc. Firefox has none of that. I think Firefox is loading the
> Mozilla default stylesheet.
> 
> (on Mac OSX)
> 
> Rick
> 
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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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[WSG] Sitepoint & web standards

[JonathanC]

Is this the same SitePoint as in "www.sitepoint.com"?
Because, they sell a book called "HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables 
Using CSS". If you go to the page 
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/utopia-designing-tables-css and view 
source, you'll see that it's a lot more standards-based and accessible 
than most. I ran it through the W3C Validator and, apart from a few 
unclosed anchor tags (bet it's a CMS bug), the only other violations are a 
number of non-SGML characters (mostly curly quotes). 

FWIW...

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

Wesley Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/09/2004 12:37:40 PM:

> Actually i own a copy of the Business Kit and one of the things that I 
> was personally disappointed with was the lack of talk about standards 
> and also accessibility for that matter.  None of the author's websites, 
> that I have seen, validate.   So obviously it is not very important to 
> his business at this point in time.
> 
> Hope that was on topic ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes Davis
> 
> ...

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Re: [WSG] Ikon

[JonathanC]

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Re: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies - (interesting subject line)

[JonathanC]

"Indiscrepancies" = cross between "indiscretions" and "discrepancies"? 
:-)

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au


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Re: [WSG] JS Percentages?

[JonathanC]

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Re: [WSG] Removing bullets

[JonathanC]

This has nothing to do with removing bullets. In fact, it's got nothing to 
do with HTML.
I just thought you should know that "accommodation" (2nd from the top) 
should have 2 'm's. :-)

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

> simon wrote:
> > 
> > I have contructed this navigation bar --> 
> > http://simondodson.com/nav2.html and im having trouble removing the 
> > bullet points from the list ...

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Re: [WSG]Topics for Sydney meeting 23/10/03

[JonathanC]

Hi. I'm a lurker. Well, I was until
just then :-)

My vote is for A1. I'm afraid I'm still
too much of a newbie to suggest anything for B.

Regards,
Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

(P.S. Sorry this is a bit late. I forgot
I had it in my draft emails folder.)

russ weakley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on
01/10/2003 09:40:12 PM:

> ..
> This poll is open to all members, even if you cannot attend (or are
in a
> different city/country), as the presentations will be made available
to the
> entire group.
> 
> ..
> ---
> A. Vote on preferred choice for first presentation of the evening
> ---
> 
> A1. Basic step-by-step site accessibility demo...
> 
> OR
> 
> A2. Presentation on the basics of CSS floats...
> 
> ---
> B. Calling for members willing to do second presentation of the evening
> ---
> B1. Is there a web standards related topic that you would like to
present to
> the group. Let us know!
> 
> OR
> 
> B2. Is there a web standards related topic you would like to know
more
> about? ...

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Re: [WSG]Opera 7.20 released

[JonathanC]

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Re: voice-family (was Re: [WSG] Opera 7.20 released)

[JonathanC]

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