Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Lynne Pope
On 2/12/06, Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  At which point does one's right to do as one chooses start stepping on
  another one's right to access services?

 I believe there is no right to access services. Any such aberration of
 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate rights of others is
 destructive to our liberty. The question regarding any so called right
 is: At whose expense?. If there is an answer, you have unmasked why it
 is illegitimate. True rights exist in and of themselves without cost to

If a site is providing information or services to the public, then the
public have a right to be able to access those services. Providing
access to all of the public does not impinge on the rights of any
other sector of that public.  Accessibility and usability go hand in
hand and improvements made to accessibility generally benefit all
users, not just those with disabilities.

I believe education is the key. Many site owners rely on the advice of
their site designers and don't have a clue what Standards are, let
alone what needs to be done to make a site accessible to the widest
possible audience. Target were advised of the problems with their site
ten months ago and chose not to fix them. The question that really
intrigues me is that of where the responsibility actually lies? With
Target (ultimately), with the Amazon engine that generates their site,
or with the designers of the site themselves?  It is certainly an
interesting case.

Education and asking nicely for fixes doesn't always work. Theodore
Rooselvelt had the right idea, Speak softly and carry a big stick -
unfortunately, as long as the ADA is seen to be a bricks and mortar
law, it will not be a very effective stick.

Lynne Pope
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[WSG] Opera 8.5 css

2006-02-11 Thread Lynne Pope
Hi all,
I have a site that is pretty close to pixel-perfect in IE  Firefox.
However, with Opera 8.5 I have run into problems with the layering of
floats. It seems 8.5 is not recognising 'position:
relative; z-index:n;' in the float layer. Does anyone know if this is
a recognised bug? If it is, could you please direct me to a

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Re: [WSG] All in the Head: Document Type Definition

2006-01-09 Thread Lynne Pope
On 1/10/06, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Document Type Definitions were AFAIK first used by SGML and later
 for defining XML and XHTML. Because of the limitations of the DTD
 Language XML Schema has been developed. XML Schema is kind of
 heavyweight so that many people use the simpler RELAX NG instead.

Now I am getting confused! LOL
XML is a subset of SGML - right?
But DTD's define the elements. attributes and entities of the document
type, and their order, and just happen to use SGML to do so.  SGML not
XML - or am I missing something?

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Re: [WSG] XHTML again - was:[Claiming compliance when a site doesn't' actually comply]

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
I didn't want my first contribution to the group to be a comment on another person's website, but as you said you are learning Bob I thought you might find this helpful. The problem with browser sniffing is that you have to be very careful to serve the right information. At the moment, your site does not validate for css or for HTML 
4.01. In IE, your site shows meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8. It needs to be sent with the text/html mime type. A little tweak to your php code and you will have it nailed ;)
Regards,LynneOn 1/6/06, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The approach I use (I'm learning, incidentally)was triggered originally by Georg :write your page as XHTML (
1.1 even) and serve it whilst testing as application/xhtml+xml.When it validates and there are no well formedness errors, you can serve it in any way you want/need, knowing that 'it's ready'.For anyone who hasn't seen it, a great way to actually use the resulting code is to use PHP to check the http_accept and insert the DTD header/mimetype as appropriate (see have used this approach on my site ( [1 ]below) and this serves the pages as html 
4.01 to IE , and xhtml1.1 to 'modern browsers like FF, Opera, etc.I'm not sure of the real world value at this time, but certainly it is an excellent discipline in helping me write well formed pages.Best Regards,
Bob McClellandCornwall (UK)[1]

Re: [WSG] XHTML again

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
Hi Bob,Your splash page validates in xhtml, but the rest of your site has css errors:

URI : 6 Context : html 
Property text-justify doesn't exist
 : newspaper
Line: 62 Context : #container 
Property text-justify doesn't exist
 : newspaperIt does not validate at all as HTML 4.01 Strict - are you sure you are checking validation against that DOCTYPE?Cheers,Lynne

On 1/7/06, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Lynne,Thanks for your comments.Unless I'm very much mistaken, it 'is' sent as text/html - that's thepoint. OK, it does say that it is application/xhtml+xml in the meta tag,but that is just ignored when it's sent with the correct mime type.
Also, try as I might, I can't get it to be invalid when using the w3cchecker. . .??If I'm missing something here, perhaps one of our learned colleagueswill tell me?--Best Regards,
Bob McClellandCornwall (UK)

Re: [WSG] absolute positioned a not where it should be

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
The li triggers white space issues in IE. You will need to add some conditional statements to insert an IE workaround for this issue.Cheers,LynneOn 1/7/06, 
Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Didn't see my first message hit the list so I 
thought I'd try again, excuses if it did arrive the first 

Is anyone able to 
tell me why in Internet Explorer the read more... link is not positioned where 
it should be?

The li 
itemis positioned relative, the a link itself is positioned 
absolute, right: 0; top: 0; which should place it to the border of the 
li item not outside the ol item, in FireFox it looks good but 
not in IE.


Any help much 

Re: [WSG] absolute positioned a not where it should be

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
Conditional statements are, in my opinion, the best way to handle IE
hacks (especially with the likely introduction of more problems to
deal with when IE7 is released).  You can just take the route of
adding IE hacks into your css if you are not familiar with the if,
then, else types of conditional scripting.

An example conditional statement is:
!--[if IE]

 - with your IE styling included between the tags. Note: you put this
into the pages either by hardcoding or calling through an include.

I hope this helps.


On 1/7/06, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Lynne,

 thanks a million, and I not familiar with conditional  statements, are you 
 able to give me an example?

 Kind  regards,

 Taco Fleur - Chief Executive Officer
 Pacific  Fox an  industry leader with commercial 
 IT experience since 1994 …

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Re: [WSG] absolute positioned a not where it should be

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
On 1/7/06, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks, so this conditional style will only work in Internet Explorer is that 

It depends on how you write a conditional statement but the example I
gave you is for IE, yes. It says, if IE, then do something.

 Sorry, just never used anything like this, if something didn't work I just 
 did it another way, never implemented a hack for something.

 Question; is there some reading material in regards to this problem that I am 
 having that you know off?

Yes, just do a Google search for white space issues with IE.  You will
get thousands of pages of informaton.

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Re: [WSG] XHTML again

2006-01-06 Thread Lynne Pope
On 1/7/06, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It is not as easy to hide proprietary and 'not-yet-recommended' CSS from
 the validator, as it is with all the garbage often needed to make IE/win
 OTOH: hiding something in a conditional comment (or in a 'non-existent
 stylesheet', like I do at times) doesn't make it more valid - just hidden.

Conditional statements are not hidden, they just do whatever you code
them to do. They are a valid markup.

 BTW: non-valid CSS doesn't affect HTML/XHTML status/validity at all.

True. However, if we are coding to standards then it pays to be aware
of any coding errors in css. You can't look at each standard in a

  It does not validate at all as HTML 4.01 Strict - are you sure you
  are checking validation against that DOCTYPE?

 This sounds a bit strange to me.
 Which source-code should be checked as HTML4.01?

 Given the fact that the validator is fed an XHTML1.1 page with the
 correct MIME-type by default, is it even possible to check that
 source-code as HTML? I would think not.

 Enforcing the validator wouldn't work - and it shouldn't since the
 source-code isn't 'HTML4.01 Anything' when it's served to the validator.

And your point is? I made the comment that the site does not validate
as HTML 4.01, did you see me say how I validated it?  Anyone designing
a site to render as one DOCTYPE in some browsers and another DOCTYPE
for other browsers, and who wishes to have the pages validate against
both DOCTYPES  would, I assume, check the validation for both.
This can be done in many ways, such as entering the source code, or in
cases where the person looking at the code is sufficiently
experienced, just looking can show there are errors.

The validators themselves tell you that they have limitations.  A page
can validate according to the W3C online service but, in fact, not be
valid. It all comes down to how closely any developer wishes to adhere
to standards and how much of a purist anyone is when it comes to
correct coding ;)

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