Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Yikes! I know that feeling all too well! It's like learning to fly on your way down feeling. The worst part is giving up. It is a nightmare... On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:13 PM, James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com wrote: Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare. As you said. Lesson learned :p On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.comwrote: I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used for layouts etc. I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare. Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Lionel C. Bethancourt Have Brain Will Travel Phone: 55 11 2949-4518 E-mail: 2lcbe...@gmail.com you often find your destiny on the path you take to avoid it. If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:43 AM, William Donovan wrote: Hang on, did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic). Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces... Web Standards...? Nahhh It's all about type faces that are easier to read on the web and understanding why some are better then others :) -- Jason Pruim japr...@raoset.com 616.399.2355 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Not to mention optimum line lengths, amount of whitespace, justification ... It is unfortunately far too common to assume that lessons learned centuries ago are no longer relevant, just because they weren't digital. Actually, that was one of the big changes then: type was inherently fixed-width, so there was no way to write a little bit tighter to fit a word in, the way that free-hand scribes could. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Pruim Sent: 30 January 2009 11:26 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:43 AM, William Donovan wrote: Hang on, did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic). Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces... Web Standards...? Nahhh It's all about type faces that are easier to read on the web and understanding why some are better then others :) -- Jason Pruim japr...@raoset.com 616.399.2355 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Sorry—got carried away. (: On 30/01/2009, at 4:43 PM, William Donovan wrote: Hang on, did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic). Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces... Web Standards...? William Donovan mobile: 0403 263 284 --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Good point Dennis, plug away. It's all part of the challenge and there needss to be people leading the path for others to follow. Well done for atleast trying for them James. William Donovan mobile: 0403 263 284 2009/1/29 Eyemax Studios i...@eyemaxstudios.net Unfortunate, you as a developer, and the rest of world to have to view it, and for those original developers as they won't be able to learn from your wisdom. I've had similar cases myself, and refused to put my name to those projects for the same reasons. It's just the way things are unfortunately, but remember this same thing happens in all industry's, so don't go putting the blame on yourself, keep your head up and don't let it get you down. I've had potential client's come to me wanting me to do their site,, and after going through outlining why things are done the way they are, and a price is given them for what they want in their site, they end up going to the $100 guys, and end up coming back wanting me to help them. In every case I've told them, they only way to fix this problem and get your site working in a way they want is to scratch what they have unfortunately already paid for, and charge them the original price. In some cases I've repriced them more, for having to muck around with something someone else done. Keep plugging away at the industry, it's hard not to take on work at times, especially when rent needs paying, and food need to be in our belly's. Dennis, Eyemax Studios - Studo Junkyard James Jeffery wrote: Big company, worldwide infact. A great one for the resume but I failed it. I was brought in at the end of the project to fix some bugs. Let me just say that from viewing the source it was majorly flawed! I spent 6 hours on it before handing in the towel right near their deadline. The CSS was unstructured, way to much repetition which was the cause of some bugs and errors. The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys who were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push elements along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a span inside it for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only a part of the issue. I don't question my knowledge. It's up to par and I have completed a number of jobs, but on this occasion I sucked ... or they sucked ... or both. This website will be released to the world, and millions will use it, but its awfully constructed, not semantic at all and its another case of a poor website on the web. Ah well. Lesson learn't. Never jump into a project at the last minute to be relied upon for a couple of pennies. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys who were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push elements along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a span inside it for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only a part of the issue. I've seen lots of misuse of h1 over the years but nothing quite as bizarre as that! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Guys thanks for the response. I hit the sac last night at nearly 6am and was very pissed off, with myself for failing the job. I'm all good now though because at the end of the day it wasn't really my doing. The guy that passed me the work does front-end development all day, I thought it was strange why he passed on the work to me. Now I see why ... because it was a bloody mess. Anyway. I can't say who it is, but it's a cable/sat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
On 29/01/2009, at 11:39 PM, James Jeffery wrote: Guys thanks for the response. I hit the sac last night at nearly 6am and was very pissed off, with myself for failing the job. I'm all good now though because at the end of the day it wasn't really my doing. The guy that passed me the work does front-end development all day, I thought it was strange why he passed on the work to me. Now I see why ... because it was a bloody mess. I’d expect clean, accessible, and semantic code from a front-end developer. Bah—sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. I think we all end up taking a bite from the sour end of the pie at some point in our profession, and, in the end I guess the best thing to do is consider it an experience worth not repeating and learning from it. Regards. —Pascal Anyway. I can't say who it is, but it's a cable/sat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare. As you said. Lesson learned :p On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.comwrote: I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used for layouts etc. I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare. Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare. As you said. Lesson learned :p On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.com wrote: I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used for layouts etc. I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare. Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
We need to always remember that if we're being brought in on a project already in progress, we're probably being brought into a messed-up project that is failing -- behind schedule, overbudget, unworkable, and in crisis. Otherwise they wouldn't need us. They've already demonstrated their manifold failures and now add to them by having fantasies about how we'll be able to fix the whole ball of mud overnight. I love Kieren's characterization of a back street bedroom 'I can do that' wannabee. It seems exactly right. It only lacks that they've indulged in another fantasy that they can have the website of their dreams while paying someone next to nothing. James also gets it right that often brokers want to believe that they have these miracle workers at their beck and call who can make silk purses out of sows' ears on a daily basis, earning them money for almost no work on their part, especially their having to spend time to understand what's actually going on. Heaven help the person who in any way interferes with their cashflow. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *James Jeffery *Sent:* 29 January 2009 14:13 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( Indeed. My only problem is I have lost future work from the guy that feeds me these jobs because I failed it, he isn't even understanding my situation and he's a front-end developer aswell. I mean 10 hours to do a whole lot of bug fixing and a near rewite is stupid. Also there was no SV so when I edited stuff, they overwrite it and it was an absolute nightmare. As you said. Lesson learned :p On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Krystian - Sunlust sunl...@gmail.com wrote: I remember when through GAF I got a on-page SEO job for a website, I was stupid enough to accept it without first looking at the code, it came out that it's a table based design with images in the markup used for layouts etc. I've done as much as I could, but it was a nightmare. Like Simon posted, it's a good lesson. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust Affordable Web Services in Eastbourne: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't get the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the ultra-cheap. The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out that I probably would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch. I offered him a discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him, I guess. Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the time spent. Jo Hawke On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote: On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( [...] --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's interesting that they aren't essential to reading. I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many characters to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a page, and ending with a full page. In a sense, one of first books (it isn't actually *the* first) ever printed was the most perfectly formatted ever. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote: On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( [...] --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Some people are so tight with money (even those with alot) that they settle for cheap mess rather then refined bliss. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Viable Design desi...@viabledesign.comwrote: I've been feeling a bit guilty for the past few months because I wouldn't get the bugs out of a friend's insurance-business site for him on the ultra-cheap. The tables and inline mess would've taken so long to sort out that I probably would've been better off, time-wise, starting from scratch. I offered him a discounted rate, but it wasn't enough of a discount for him, I guess. Now, I'm thinking I did the right thing after all. I know he wouldn't've appreciated the clean coding, and he definitely wouldn't've appreciated the time spent. Jo Hawke On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.orgwrote: On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( [...] --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
On 30/01/2009, at 2:36 AM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote: I’d expect clean, accessible, and semantic code from a front-end developer. Bah—sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. I think we all end up taking a bite from the sour end of the pie at some point in our profession, and, in the end I guess the best thing to do is consider it an experience worth not repeating and learning from it. Lessons learnt. I always check the source first because as they say, you can't polish a turd. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
The ultimate failure is being offered to do a job initially, only to inform the customer their plan as written is unworkable from the get go. They find someone else to build it according to their plan, only to be approached months down the road to fix something. It turns out that others in between tried and got nowhere. It comes full circle with what was built but would never work, and they want you to fix it, something you initially turned down. It can't be fixed. Oh, yeah. It was all paid for with your tax dollars. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
On 30/01/2009, at 4:16 AM, Fred Ballard wrote: I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's interesting that they aren't essential to reading. I believe this is due to the inherent markings of the tops and bottoms of the glyphs, particularly the lowercase glyphs. B42s were all set with a very Germanic textura blackletter which feature strong diamond- shaped markings that allowed the eye to follow the line of these markings. Further, back then with the cost of paper and vellum it was entirely uneconomical and even more expensive to print (or write) with what we today consider an ample leading (line-height). In addition Gutenberg let his hyphens lie in the margins (what we know as hanging punctuation) further adding to the blocky, well-defined lines. In fact, the reason why serif typefaces are easier to read (at least when printed—it is true that at small sizes on screen and with poor hinting serif typefaces quickly become more difficult to read); it is the serifs or ‘little feet’ on glyphs that allow our eye to dance in saccades along a line by telling us where that glyph starts and ends in the vertical space. Add all the characters up, particularly the lowercase ones, and the eye will follow all the serifs forming a concise line. I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many characters to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a page, and ending with a full page. In a sense, one of first books (it isn't actually the first) ever printed was the most perfectly formatted ever. Indeed. Gutenberg’s first bible (actually a Gutenberg Bible consists of two volumes, each 1280-odd pages: Old Testament, and part of the New Testament with the second continuing where the first let off—they were divided again because of economical reasons), and the rest of the series that followed (180 in total I believe), were divided into two columns, spanning mostly 42 lines. Kind regards. —Pascal On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org wrote: On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( [...] --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Hang on, did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic). Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces... Web Standards...? William Donovan mobile: 0403 263 284 2009/1/30 Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org On 30/01/2009, at 4:16 AM, Fred Ballard wrote: I've read that the Gutenberg bible is formatted without spaces. It's interesting that they aren't essential to reading. I believe this is due to the inherent markings of the tops and bottoms of the glyphs, particularly the lowercase glyphs. B42s were all set with a very Germanic textura blackletter which feature strong diamond-shaped markings that allowed the eye to follow the line of these markings. Further, back then with the cost of paper and vellum it was entirely uneconomical and even more expensive to print (or write) with what we today consider an ample leading (line-height). In addition Gutenberg let his hyphens lie in the margins (what we know as hanging punctuation) further adding to the blocky, well-defined lines. In fact, the reason why serif typefaces are easier to read (at least when printed—it is true that at small sizes on screen and with poor hinting serif typefaces quickly become more difficult to read); it is the serifs or 'little feet' on glyphs that allow our eye to dance in saccades along a line by telling us where that glyph starts and ends in the vertical space. Add all the characters up, particularly the lowercase ones, and the eye will follow all the serifs forming a concise line. I've also read that it's all uniformly blocked out with so many characters to a line, so many lines to a column, two columns to a page, and ending with a full page. In a sense, one of first books (it isn't actually the first) ever printed was the most perfectly formatted ever. Indeed. Gutenberg's first bible (actually a Gutenberg Bible consists of two volumes, each 1280-odd pages: Old Testament, and part of the New Testament with the second continuing where the first let off—they were divided again because of economical reasons), and the rest of the series that followed (180 in total I believe), were divided into two columns, spanning mostly 42 lines. Kind regards. —Pascal On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Simon Pascal Klein kle...@klepas.org wrote: On 30/01/2009, at 2:15 AM, kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk kie...@humdingerdesigns.co.uk wrote: Join the club, I've been commissioned to do a local website and the guy was hoping he'd be able to get a quick bug-fix on his current with a bit of updating. Unfortuanetly the css was akin to the Guttenberg Bible; completely unreadable and would have been a pig to translate. Not to mention, a strange and chaotic mishmash of tables, frames and weird proprietary software markup. Some clients (and this one did, thank god) need to realize that when the original is written by a back street bedroom I can do that wannabe, they're paying for someone who can stick a few words and pics up and not much else. Wel, I for one, relish at the idea of getting my hands on a Gutenburg Bible and reading it… well analysing the lettering and type rather, but hey. :-) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: 29 January 2009 14:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( [...] --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Which site? James Jeffery wrote: Big company, worldwide infact. A great one for the resume but I failed it. I was brought in at the end of the project to fix some bugs. Let me just say that from viewing the source it was majorly flawed! I spent 6 hours on it before handing in the towel right near their deadline. The CSS was unstructured, way to much repetition which was the cause of some bugs and errors. The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys who were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push elements along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a span inside it for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only a part of the issue. I don't question my knowledge. It's up to par and I have completed a number of jobs, but on this occasion I sucked ... or they sucked ... or both. This website will be released to the world, and millions will use it, but its awfully constructed, not semantic at all and its another case of a poor website on the web. Ah well. Lesson learn't. Never jump into a project at the last minute to be relied upon for a couple of pennies. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Unfortunate, you as a developer, and the rest of world to have to view it, and for those original developers as they won't be able to learn from your wisdom. I've had similar cases myself, and refused to put my name to those projects for the same reasons. It's just the way things are unfortunately, but remember this same thing happens in all industry's, so don't go putting the blame on yourself, keep your head up and don't let it get you down. I've had potential client's come to me wanting me to do their site,, and after going through outlining why things are done the way they are, and a price is given them for what they want in their site, they end up going to the $100 guys, and end up coming back wanting me to help them. In every case I've told them, they only way to fix this problem and get your site working in a way they want is to scratch what they have unfortunately already paid for, and charge them the original price. In some cases I've repriced them more, for having to muck around with something someone else done. Keep plugging away at the industry, it's hard not to take on work at times, especially when rent needs paying, and food need to be in our belly's. Dennis, Eyemax Studios - Studo Junkyard James Jeffery wrote: Big company, worldwide infact. A great one for the resume but I failed it. I was brought in at the end of the project to fix some bugs. Let me just say that from viewing the source it was majorly flawed! I spent 6 hours on it before handing in the towel right near their deadline. The CSS was unstructured, way to much repetition which was the cause of some bugs and errors. The only way out of that was to rewrite the whole lot. I mean the guys who were on this project were creating empty spans with classes to push elements along a page (like spacers). They had an empty h1 with a span inside it for the logo they placed in using CSS ... that was only a part of the issue. I don't question my knowledge. It's up to par and I have completed a number of jobs, but on this occasion I sucked ... or they sucked ... or both. This website will be released to the world, and millions will use it, but its awfully constructed, not semantic at all and its another case of a poor website on the web. Ah well. Lesson learn't. Never jump into a project at the last minute to be relied upon for a couple of pennies. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
