Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

@patrick yes pinning tasks is an example of what does not need to be done -
flourish added by microsoft for extra flare :) - bet that was the result of
some blue sky idea in some board room / focus group; more reason for ie 9ish
being on xp (50% users)

@mike some of the eloquence/stats I was looking for
 - S



On 29 September 2010 17:06, Foskett, Mike  wrote:

> Strange,
>
> My answer would've been not yet.
> Too many differences in supported video codecs cross-browser.
> A bit of a mare in production unless you've a transcoding service on your
> media server.
>
> For the maximum audience:
> Flash 8 preferably (9 if full screen is a requirement), ON2 VP6 Codec, with
> HTML5 H.264+AAC+MP4 for apple products as back-up.
> Which is still one too many formats, not to forget that H.264 is licensed.
>
> The next generation will be H.264 in Flash v9.3 plus. One format albeit
> licensed for big and small alike woohoo!
>
> HTML5 video will only be truly usable when browsers and devices all support
> at least one "universal" codec.
> Probably webM, but we'll have to wait at least a 2 years for that.
>
> That's my tuppence worth anyway.
>
>
> regards.
>
> mike foskett
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Jason Arnold
> Sent: 29 September 2010 14:41
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, cat soul  wrote:
> >Flash offers a one-stop shopping
> > tool, and as has been said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so
> > playback is more or less assured across the intertoobs.
>
> Except when dealing with the Mobile market where Flash isn't universal
> and if you care at all if your content plays on the iProducts (Pad,
> Pod, Phone which does have a decent marketshare in mobile devices)
> then you'll be looking at alternatives in addition to Flash anyway.
>
> > So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of
> > movie/sound content replace Flash?
>
> Yes.
>
> If you encode in Ogg and H.264 and include a Flash player fallback for
> IE < 9 then your video would be available in all the popular browsers
> and available on all mobile devices that can play video from websites.
>  There's already many templates out there that includes all this
> (minus the video encodings obviously).
>
>
>
> --
>
> 
> Jason Arnold
> http://www.jasonarnold.net
>
> 
>
>
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RE: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Foskett, Mike]

Strange,

My answer would've been not yet.
Too many differences in supported video codecs cross-browser.
A bit of a mare in production unless you've a transcoding service on your media 
server.

For the maximum audience:
Flash 8 preferably (9 if full screen is a requirement), ON2 VP6 Codec, with 
HTML5 H.264+AAC+MP4 for apple products as back-up.
Which is still one too many formats, not to forget that H.264 is licensed.

The next generation will be H.264 in Flash v9.3 plus. One format albeit 
licensed for big and small alike woohoo!

HTML5 video will only be truly usable when browsers and devices all support at 
least one "universal" codec.
Probably webM, but we'll have to wait at least a 2 years for that.

That's my tuppence worth anyway.


regards.

mike foskett



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jason Arnold
Sent: 29 September 2010 14:41
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, cat soul  wrote:
>Flash offers a one-stop shopping
> tool, and as has been said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so
> playback is more or less assured across the intertoobs.

Except when dealing with the Mobile market where Flash isn't universal
and if you care at all if your content plays on the iProducts (Pad,
Pod, Phone which does have a decent marketshare in mobile devices)
then you'll be looking at alternatives in addition to Flash anyway.

> So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of
> movie/sound content replace Flash?

Yes.

If you encode in Ogg and H.264 and include a Flash player fallback for
IE < 9 then your video would be available in all the popular browsers
and available on all mobile devices that can play video from websites.
 There's already many templates out there that includes all this
(minus the video encodings obviously).



--

Jason Arnold
http://www.jasonarnold.net



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This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The 
views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.

Tesco Stores Limited
Company Number: 519500
Registered in England
Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL
VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31


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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Jason Arnold]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, cat soul  wrote:
>Flash offers a one-stop shopping
> tool, and as has been said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so
> playback is more or less assured across the intertoobs.

Except when dealing with the Mobile market where Flash isn't universal
and if you care at all if your content plays on the iProducts (Pad,
Pod, Phone which does have a decent marketshare in mobile devices)
then you'll be looking at alternatives in addition to Flash anyway.

> So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of
> movie/sound content replace Flash?

Yes.

If you encode in Ogg and H.264 and include a Flash player fallback for
IE < 9 then your video would be available in all the popular browsers
and available on all mobile devices that can play video from websites.
 There's already many templates out there that includes all this
(minus the video encodings obviously).



-- 

Jason Arnold
http://www.jasonarnold.net



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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[cat soul]

On Sep 29, 2010, at 1:59 AM, Sam Sherlock wrote:


MS is on board but for vista & windows 7 users only


Quite true.  All for-profit companies are in things for themselves.  
No news flash there.


But if I could tease out the original purpose of my question once  
more, it'd be to say that Flash has been used to introduce  
interactivity + multimedia into web pages. True, there are other ways  
to get interactivity, and other ways to get multimedia into web  
pages, but Flash offers a one-stop shopping tool, and as has been  
said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so playback is more or  
less assured across the intertoobs.


Add that Flash comes with a load of issues, some for users, some for  
developers, which are unpleasant. CPU overhead, difficulties in  
updating/modifying sites are 2 I can think of.


So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of  
movie/sound content replace Flash?



cs

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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Patrick H. Lauke]

On 29/09/2010 09:59, Sam Sherlock wrote:

So ie pre ie9 is still going to be out there; I think that ie9 should be
released as an xp version also

the other browsers all make versions that work for xp and support html5;
though though some things would only work on ie9 (pinning tasks)


let's not get confused here. pinning tasks and all the other stuff that 
MS has been touting recently has nothing to do with HTML5, CSS3, or 
anything else. It's their proprietary meta element additions ... 
http://camendesign.com/blog/stop_this_madness


also, as already mentioned, but worth reiterating because of the 
thread's subject line: H.264 is merely a video codec. there are other 
codecs out there in use (ogg theora and webm). it's the fundamental 
behind it - the video element in HTML5 and its native support in 
browsers - that is the technology to be discussed (and whether or not 
that can supplant flash in certain generic use cases), not the 
(royalty/patent-encumbered) h.264 codec.


P
--
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__
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

MS is on board but for vista & windows 7 users only

So ie pre ie9 is still going to be out there; I think that ie9 should be
released as an xp version also

the other browsers all make versions that work for xp and support html5;
though though some things would only work on ie9 (pinning tasks)

microsoft seem to be operating in a new light but I feel they could shine
brighter; but maybe thats too optimistic

 - S


On 29 September 2010 03:14, cat soul  wrote:

> that's pretty nice..
>
> I've also been reading that MS is on board with the HTML5+ h264 combo as an
> alternative to Flash, so perhaps a critical mass is forming...
>
> I do feel that flash  has its place, but that it was a mistake jumping in
> head first as the web seemed to do over flash so many years ago.
>
> cs
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>
> transitions with css
>
> here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in .
> vcard
> in firefox  the icons just use hover active
>  - S
>
>
>
> On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>>
>> Kroc Camen video for everybody
>> http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
>>
>> I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
>> another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
>> chrome does)
>>
>> but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
>>  number that will have the flash plugin
>>
>> even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be
>> indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
>> users just want things to work flash is something that people know about
>> at some level
>>
>>
>> OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of
>> what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity?
>>
>> cs
>>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[cat soul]

that's pretty nice..

I've also been reading that MS is on board with the HTML5+ h264 combo  
as an alternative to Flash, so perhaps a critical mass is forming...


I do feel that flash  has its place, but that it was a mistake  
jumping in head first as the web seemed to do over flash so many  
years ago.


cs



On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:


transitions with css

here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css  
with in .vcard

in firefox  the icons just use hover active
 - S



On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul  wrote:
On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:


Kroc Camen video for everybody
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody

I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser  
(or another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4  
will maybe, chrome does)


but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread  
as the  number that will have the flash plugin


even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be  
indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
users just want things to work flash is something that people know  
about at some level


OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other  
aspects of what Flash is used for, such as animation and  
interactivity?


cs



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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

transitions with css

here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in .
vcard
in firefox  the icons just use hover active
 - S



On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul  wrote:

> On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>
> Kroc Camen video for everybody
> http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
>
> I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
> another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
> chrome does)
>
> but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
>  number that will have the flash plugin
>
> even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be
> indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
> users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at
> some level
>
>
> OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of
> what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity?
>
> cs
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[cat soul]

On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:


Kroc Camen video for everybody
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody

I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser  
(or another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4  
will maybe, chrome does)


but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread  
as the  number that will have the flash plugin


even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be  
indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
users just want things to work flash is something that people know  
about at some level


OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other  
aspects of what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity?


cs



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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

Kroc Camen video for everybody
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody

I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
chrome does)

but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
 number that will have the flash plugin

even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be indifferent
about how the video is shown - basic
users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at
some level

javascript (often) is part of doing what you can as developer to ensure that
the UX is as seamless as possible (requiring little of the user)
 
 - S


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[WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[cat soul]

I hope that this is within the scope of this list...

Some months back, you may have read Steve Jobs saying that Flash  
could easily be replaced by a combo of CSS and h264, or something  
very similar.


My CSS skills don't empower me to see how this could be..could  
somebody shine a light on this for me?


I personally do not care for Flash thingies...from a user  
standpoint..mostly bombastic, and monopolizes my CPU.



thank you!

cs


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