Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS? [OT]
Sarah Simmonds wrote: Michael: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know we had a list specifically for CMS's. I'll direct my query there :) Cheers, Sarah On 3/14/08, Mark Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there > Y'know, I can sort of understand people mis-hearing "Mark" as "Mike" on the phone or in a meeting (I get that a lot), but how do you mis-read "mark" as "Michael"?!? Oh, well... MARK *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Some excellent OpenSource CMS systems that I have had the pleasure of working with for real production work in various client environments include: 1. Joomla 2. XOOPS 3. WordPress 4. PhpNuke 5. PostNuke 6. TextPattern Joomla is currently my favorite for clients with broad needs -- say, bbs, doc management systems, stock quotes, scheduling apps, booking apps, et cetera -- or very industry specific needs such as an auto sales site joomla has it pretty much as there are over 2,700 different modules that easily plug-in to the base framework to do anything. Also, most if not all of these CMSes are "skinable" with the option of even allowing users to select their own custom skins in their log-in profiles. For a simple yet elegant blog site, WordPress is a good match. All of these are mature projects and each is worth gaining some knowledge of if just to know how very sophisticated these frameworks have become and how useful. Most frontends in these projects may be modified with just acgiod grasp of CSS while others require some good coding experience. As always, YMMV. -=KuRt=- Kurt Lovelace MindRoot.Com On Mar 13, 2008, at 8:16 PM, aleagi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello, Take a look at Drupal: http://drupal.org It's powerfull, it's flexible and have a lot of coll stuff and tries to follow web standards... Have a nice day! @:D Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - "Nosce te ipsum" - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix certainly fits the bill. I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Sarah, I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS here: http://matrix.squiz.net The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that offers services around the MySource Matrix product. My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a nice guy, feel free to give him a call... I hope that helps. Good luck, Rich On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Aleagi: Yep, we're looking at Drupal too. Michael: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know we had a list specifically for CMS's. I'll direct my query there :) Cheers, Sarah On 3/14/08, Mark Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there > > > > > From the Guidelines: > "The mail list does not cover: > > * Non-Web Standards related issues and support > * Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved > with Web Standards > * Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues > beyond those directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list > for that purpose, Log in and go to Edit your login details and mail list > subscriptions and set your preferences to "Full CMS list" or "CMS list > in digest mode") > * Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a > server, installing any tools etc. > * Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature > * Employment opportunities" > > > http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > > Not that I'm decrying the questions but we have a resource specifically > for CMS discussion so let's use it > > Cheers > > > mark > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there > From the Guidelines: "The mail list does not cover: * Non-Web Standards related issues and support * Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web Standards * Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list for that purpose, Log in and go to Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions and set your preferences to "Full CMS list" or "CMS list in digest mode") * Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server, installing any tools etc. * Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature * Employment opportunities" http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Not that I'm decrying the questions but we have a resource specifically for CMS discussion so let's use it Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hello, Take a look at Drupal: http://drupal.org It's powerfull, it's flexible and have a lot of coll stuff and tries to follow web standards... Have a nice day! @:D Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - "Nosce te ipsum" - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of > solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne > though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution > which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix > certainly fits the bill. > > I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! > > Cheers, > Sarah > > > On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open > Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously > recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen > sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS > here: > > > > http://matrix.squiz.net > > > > The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that > offers services around the MySource Matrix product. > > > > My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a > nice guy, feel free to give him a call... > > > > I hope that helps. > > > > Good luck, > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - > let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% > standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does > not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is > that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The > way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need > them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a > matter of a few hours. > > > > > > It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). > > > > > > I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution > has been really worth it. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Adam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi WSGers, > > > > > > > > We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single > Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're > interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. > > > > > > > > So my question is three fold: > > > > > > > > 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? > > > > 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle > scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? > > > > 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, > standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards > and accessibility built into your CMS? > > > > > > > > There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's > not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Sarah > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > Sarah Simmonds > > > > > - > > > > Melbourne IT Web Developer > > > > Member of the Web Standards Group > > > > Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association > > > > Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT > > > > > - > > > > *** > > > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > - > > > http://myfitness.ning.com > > > A community of people that care about their health and fitness > > > Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. > > > > > > -- > > > *** > > > > > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Richard Johnson > > > > == > > Mobile: +44 (0) 7929 625 937 > > Landline: +44 (0) 207 183 8877 > > Web: www.totallyrich.com > > E-mail: [
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi Richard, Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix certainly fits the bill. I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open > Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously > recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen > sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS > here: > > http://matrix.squiz.net > > The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that > offers services around the MySource Matrix product. > > My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a > nice guy, feel free to give him a call... > > I hope that helps. > > Good luck, > Rich > > On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - > > let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% > > standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does > > not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is > > that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The > > way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need > > them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a > > matter of a few hours. > > > > It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). > > > > I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution > > has been really worth it. > > > > Cheers > > Adam > > > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi WSGers, > > > > > > We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single > > > Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're > > > interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. > > > > > > So my question is three fold: > > > > > > 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? > > > 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle > > > scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? > > > 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, > > > standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for > > > standards > > > and accessibility built into your CMS? > > > > > > There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's > > > not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Sarah > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Sarah Simmonds > > > > > > - > > > Melbourne IT Web Developer > > > Member of the Web Standards Group > > > Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association > > > Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT > > > - > > > > > > *** > > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > *** > > > > > > > > > > -- > > - > > http://myfitness.ning.com > > A community of people that care about their health and fitness > > Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. > > -- > > *** > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > > > > > -- > Richard Johnson > > == > Mobile: +44 (0) 7929 625 937 > Landline: +44 (0) 207 183 8877 > Web: www.totallyrich.com > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > == > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry P
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi Adam, We've tried developing in-house ourselves but we've found the solutions we have in place has become difficult to maintain. With a pre-existing CMS and a solid community behind it we won't have to build upgrades ourselves, we simply need to install them. I've heard lots of good things about Zend framework though. Unfortunately we haven't found any CMS system which fits the above criteria that uses it. Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - > let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% > standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does > not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is > that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The > way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need > them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a > matter of a few hours. > > It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). > > I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution > has been really worth it. > > Cheers > Adam > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi WSGers, > > > > We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content > > Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in > > finding out what's currently in use out there. > > > > So my question is three fold: > > > > 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? > > 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle > > scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? > > 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards > > compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and > > accessibility built into your CMS? > > > > There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not > > a simple apples-to-apples comparison. > > > > Cheers, > > Sarah > > > > -- > > -- > > Sarah Simmonds > > > > - > > Melbourne IT Web Developer > > Member of the Web Standards Group > > Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association > > Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT > > - > > > > *** > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > > > > -- > - > http://myfitness.ning.com > A community of people that care about their health and fitness > Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. > -- > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi Sarah, I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS here: http://matrix.squiz.net The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that offers services around the MySource Matrix product. My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a nice guy, feel free to give him a call... I hope that helps. Good luck, Rich On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - > let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% > standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does > not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is > that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The > way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need > them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a > matter of a few hours. > > It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). > > I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution > has been really worth it. > > Cheers > Adam > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi WSGers, > > > > We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content > > Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in > > finding out what's currently in use out there. > > > > So my question is three fold: > > > > 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? > > 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle > > scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? > > 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards > > compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and > > accessibility built into your CMS? > > > > There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not > > a simple apples-to-apples comparison. > > > > Cheers, > > Sarah > > > > -- > > -- > > Sarah Simmonds > > > > - > > Melbourne IT Web Developer > > Member of the Web Standards Group > > Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association > > Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT > > - > > > > *** > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > > > > -- > - > http://myfitness.ning.com > A community of people that care about their health and fitness > Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. > -- > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > -- Richard Johnson == Mobile: +44 (0) 7929 625 937 Landline: +44 (0) 207 183 8877 Web: www.totallyrich.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi WSGers, > > We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content > Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in > finding out what's currently in use out there. > > So my question is three fold: > > 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? > 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, > was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? > 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards > compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and > accessibility built into your CMS? > > There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a > simple apples-to-apples comparison. > > Cheers, > Sarah > > -- > -- > Sarah Simmonds > > - > Melbourne IT Web Developer > Member of the Web Standards Group > Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association > Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT > - > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
