RE: [WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
From: berry Most of us have developped application using DOM which maybe will not be valid with the new standard especially with XHTML 2.0 and DOM3. So? Nobody will be forcing you to switch your site to XHTML 2.0 or any other technology. The whole point of having DOCTYPEs is to identify which standard a document was written for. Browsers will use this to switch behaviour and parsing (as some already do) and are more than likely to carry on supporting older standards; only niche browsers with exclusive 2.0 support will come out in the foreseeable future. We're looking at at least 5 or more years before anything mainstream comes out. I think standard doesn't take in consideration some attribute which was being used by the browsers and which are not standard like the innerHTML (DOM). I real don't understand why they don't want to support it. It is so helpfull and it is quicker than using the w3c way. In my view, innerHTML goes against pretty much the entire concept of the DOM, which centers around accessing and traversing a document's tree node by node. The fact that it's quicker is not a factor in deciding a consistent standard...otherwise there would *be* no standard, but an inconsistent mish-mash of quick and dirty, but do the job functions. How are we going to convert site which using iframe and all the javascript coming with like the designmode wich is support now by bought IE and FireFox ? You don't have to convert them now if you don't want to, or don't know how. XHTML 2.0 will not magically make all XHTML 1.1 or HTML4.01 content obsolete. As I said, you'd be hard pressed to find any mainstream product which only supports XHTML 2.0 in the next 5 years or so (but yeh, I may be way off with this prediction), and even then it will be a niche - no company would simply say from now on, our long established web browser will just ignore anything other than XHTML 2.0, as it's obviously a chicken and egg problem. What designmode are you referring to, btw? Is the browser are going to follow all the recommandation of the standard ? Some browsers will strive to follow them as closely as possible, while other browsers (*cough*IE*cough*) will probably try to take their own view and extend their behaviour in wonderfully non-standard ways... Even we don't agree with Microsoft some of their DOM function is very interesting so interesting that other Browsers adopted them. Other browsers didn't necessarily adopt them because they're interesting, but because IE has (had?) a de-facto monopoly for a long time, and a lot of disingenious web developers have created some mind-numbingly IE only kludged pieces of javascript/jscript. Had the other browsers not implemented at least some of these functions, no large commercial sites (e.g. banks) would have worked properly with them. Why the standard is not open for other function developped by other group when the function are effective and usefull? Microsoft are part of the W3C, so they bring their views to the table as much as anybody else. However, open standard doesn't mean that all things can just be included: of course, there will be a group decision about whether something should or shouldn't be included - and therefore, no matter how interesting / quick a function or feature may be, if it doesn't fit in with the standard, it doesn't get included. Simple as that. Otherwise, we could simply make away with standards and call it a free for all. My last email Changing Standard part2 !!! I tryed to discuss about the standard and the future of the web but no one seems to be interested to discuss about that. Maybe it was not so signifiant (my english is not that good and this makes it difficult to explain all my ideas) or maybe people are more and more afraid of changements and prefer to follow the rules with-out asking if we are taking the right way. As Mark pointed out already, everybody can join the W3C. Rather than taking a what are *they* doing attitude, you should participate: join the relevant email lists, working groups, etc. It's no good just looking at it from the outside. However, as decisions are taken by a group, this doesn't mean that all suggestions made will automatically be added to the spec, of course. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
- I doubt XHTML 2/DOM 3 will hit the main stream for a number of years (at least 5). So I wouldn't start worrying about it now. - I don't think XHTML 2/DOM 3 have be designed with developers in mind. These guys are not thinking about our immediate needs - they are thinking about the direction of the web in the future. C'mon, li href= is great for developers. So is sectionh //section. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
I am anxious about the changements which is coming with the new standard. Most of us have developped application using DOM which maybe will not be valid with the new standard especially with XHTML 2.0 and DOM3. I think standard doesn't take in consideration some attribute which was being used by the browsers and which are not standard like the innerHTML (DOM). I real don't understand why they don't want to support it. It is so helpfull and it is quicker than using the w3c way. How are we going to convert site which using iframe and all the javascript coming with like the designmode wich is support now by bought IE and FireFox ? Is the browser are going to follow all the recommandation of the standard ? I don't think so I presume they are going for the DOM, developping plus the standard their own module. Even we don't agree with Microsoft some of their DOM function is very interesting so interesting that other Browsers adopted them. Why the standard is not open for other function developped by other group when the function are effective and usefull? My last email Changing Standard part2 !!! I tryed to discuss about the standard and the future of the web but no one seems to be interested to discuss about that. Maybe it was not so signifiant (my english is not that good and this makes it difficult to explain all my ideas) or maybe people are more and more afraid of changements and prefer to follow the rules with-out asking if we are taking the right way. Berry ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
Hi Berry A few points here: - I doubt XHTML 2/DOM 3 will hit the main stream for a number of years (at least 5). So I wouldn't start worrying about it now. - I don't think XHTML 2/DOM 3 have be designed with developers in mind. These guys are not thinking about our immediate needs - they are thinking about the direction of the web in the future. - HTML4 works and will continue to work - why upgrade sites for the sake of it if there is no specific benefit that you want? - No tool (browser) will ever follow a specification exactly. - The W3C is a fairly open organisation and if you are interested in the direction of the standards they are producing, sign up to the relevant mailing lists and watch it happen in real time. - There is the spec, there are the various browser implementations and then there is the real world. These three things are all pulling in slightly different directions, but they do also influence each other and help each other along. Lastly I'd say that nothing much has changed - this situation has been around for ages. Standards get written by very smart academics in lab coats, browser companies implement the specs to a greater or lesser extent and we go on using the web. its not perfect, but it has got us where we are today and I certainly don't think there is some crisis looming. -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
Hi Berry, I wouldn't be so anxious about the new xhtml standards for now. I really don't think it'll be around in the next 4 to 5 years (if ever). If browsers will follow standards... I think there is a hole new awareness about standards and I think new browsers will follow standards. Even IE I think when taking their new beta search into consideration. But then again... if I knew I would be doing something different and get a much better paid :) Kim berry wrote: I am anxious about the changements which is coming with the new standard. Most of us have developped application using DOM which maybe will not be valid with the new standard especially with XHTML 2.0 and DOM3. I think standard doesn't take in consideration some attribute which was being used by the browsers and which are not standard like the innerHTML (DOM). I real don't understand why they don't want to support it. It is so helpfull and it is quicker than using the w3c way. How are we going to convert site which using iframe and all the javascript coming with like the designmode wich is support now by bought IE and FireFox ? Is the browser are going to follow all the recommandation of the standard ? I don't think so I presume they are going for the DOM, developping plus the standard their own module. Even we don't agree with Microsoft some of their DOM function is very interesting so interesting that other Browsers adopted them. Why the standard is not open for other function developped by other group when the function are effective and usefull? My last email Changing Standard part2 !!! I tryed to discuss about the standard and the future of the web but no one seems to be interested to discuss about that. Maybe it was not so signifiant (my english is not that good and this makes it difficult to explain all my ideas) or maybe people are more and more afraid of changements and prefer to follow the rules with-out asking if we are taking the right way. Berry ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
