Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Joe Ortenzi]

no probs. just trying to help.

On Jan 27 2008, at 01:05, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


Yes I do, it's not finished yet.

Joe Ortenzi wrote:

Christian.

Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404?


On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


Hello,

I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind  
about. Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah;  
blah; blah". The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind  
of a header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a  
paragraph with "Something" strong or in a span, or if I should do  
a header and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make  
it look properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition  
or other list.


What do you think?

Thanks.
--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Joe Ortenzi
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Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Joe Ortenzi
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Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Christian Snodgrass]

Yes I do, it's not finished yet.

Joe Ortenzi wrote:

Christian.

Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404?


On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


Hello,

I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. 
Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah; blah; 
blah". The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a 
header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph 
with "Something" strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and 
then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, 
or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list.


What do you think?

Thanks.
--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Joe Ortenzi
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Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Joe Ortenzi]

Christian.

Did you know most of your portfolio goes to a 404?


On Jan 24 2008, at 16:06, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


Hello,

I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about.  
Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah; blah;  
blah". The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a  
header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph  
with "Something" strong or in a span, or if I should do a header  
and then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look  
properly, or if I should make it some kind of definition or other  
list.


What do you think?

Thanks.
--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.joiz.com




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Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Christian Snodgrass]

Mordechai Peller wrote:

Christian Snodgrass wrote:
I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. 
Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah; blah; 
blah". The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a 
header for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph 
with "Something" strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and 
then the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, 
or if I should make it some kind of definition or other list.
It sounds like a good candidate for a definition list, but without 
more details, I can't say for sure. Basically, the DD's should 
describe their DT's. That said, you can take the meaning of "describe" 
very loosely. A classic example from the specs is dialog.



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Specially, there are 4 sections: System Requirements, Issue, Cause, and 
Resolution (this is for a computer-related knowledge base). System 
Requirements is a semi-colon seperated list of system requirements (such 
as Operating System: Windows XP; Computer Brand: Dell), Issue, Cause, 
and Resolution are a block of text (sometimes multiple paragraphs) that 
describe and the problem and solution.


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Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Mordechai Peller]

Christian Snodgrass wrote:
I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. 
Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah; blah; 
blah". The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a header 
for the list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with 
"Something" strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then 
the text in a paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if 
I should make it some kind of definition or other list.
It sounds like a good candidate for a definition list, but without more 
details, I can't say for sure. Basically, the DD's should describe their 
DT's. That said, you can take the meaning of "describe" very loosely. A 
classic example from the specs is dialog.



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RE: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[Elizabeth Spiegel]

Hi Christian

Whether or not the 'Something' should be a heading depends on the content
and function of the list.  Quite often, the text preceding a list is a
lead-in sentence e.g.

While on leave I will:
- make curtains
- get daughter organised for school
- relax (hah!).

I would mark the lead-in as a para rather than a heading, the rest as items
in an unordered list.

Elizabeth
www.spiegelweb.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass
Sent: Friday, 25 January 2008 3:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

Hello,

I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about. 
Basically, I have a list like this: "Something: blah blah; blah; blah". 
The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a header for the
list. I can't decide if I should just do a paragraph with "Something" 
strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a
paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make it
some kind of definition or other list.

What do you think?

Thanks.
-- 

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] A Question of Semantics

[neal]

> The "Something:" is a different font size, and kind of a header for the
> list. >

It seems you answered your own question
something should be a header (h.x tag)
look at the footer on sites like linkedin.com - very common approach

Neal
> Hello,
>
> I have a small semantic problem that I can't make up my mind about.
> Basically, I have a list like this: I can't decide if I should just do a
paragraph with "Something"
> strong or in a span, or if I should do a header and then the text in a
> paragraph, with some CSS to make it look properly, or if I should make
> it some kind of definition or other list.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks.
> --
>
> Christian Snodgrass
> Azure Ronin Web Design
> http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
> Phone: 859.816.7955
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Terrence Wood]

div's have no inherent dimensions and can be enclosed by fieldsets.
Terrence Wood.
Wayne Godfrey wrote:
If you add divs to the input fields, won't that effect the fieldset? Or am I
missing something here? I've been avoiding this form thing like the plague,
but I've got no choice now...gotta get it done.
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Wayne Godfrey]

Hi gang!

You all must have heard my head banging over the last couple of days! The
semantic form that I got from Patrick works great when it's got room, the
problem is, I don't have that much room. This is a small 200px wide quick
search form that needs a bit of padding.

If you add divs to the input fields, won't that effect the fieldset? Or am I
missing something here? I've been avoiding this form thing like the plague,
but I've got no choice now...gotta get it done.

Wayne

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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[J Rodgers]

I would agree only because we have enough v4 browsers around campus that are
vocal that force some level of usability to be given to them. They don't
mind getting text only pages, just unusable pages get them to fire up pine.
I don't think  are evil if used wisely... Easy enough to strip in the
future.

Jesse


On 1/17/05 9:15 PM, "Terrence Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> text-only and v4 browsers lack support for fieldsets, so one is really
> stuck with using  as the the leanest code solution.
> 
> Terrence Wood.
> 
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
>> a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case,
>> visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS...
>> 
>> i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not
>> available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to
>> cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each
>> label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational
>> (although that leads to drastic code bloat)
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Terrence Wood]

text-only and v4 browsers lack support for fieldsets, so one is really 
stuck with using  as the the leanest code solution.

Terrence Wood.
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case, 
visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS...

i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not 
available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to 
cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each 
label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational 
(although that leads to drastic code bloat)
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Marc Broad]

You could even think about a DL for simple forms.
Using the label in the DT tag and the input into the DD.
Gives you the hooks for styling, and readable in a non css browser.
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Justin French]

On 18/01/2005, at 11:21 AM, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present?
a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this 
case, visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS...

i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not 
available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had 
to cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each 
label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it 
non-presentational (although that leads to drastic code bloat)
I prefer wrapping each  (or small set of related s) in a
.
This gives more styling posibilities and is non-css-browsers--friendly.
Ditto.
---
Justin French, Indent.com.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Application Development & Graphic Design
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Kornel Lesinski]

What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present?
a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case,  
visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS...

i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not  
available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to  
cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each  
label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational  
(although that leads to drastic code bloat)
I prefer wrapping each  (or small set of related s) in a
.
This gives more styling posibilities and is non-css-browsers--friendly.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Andrew Krespanis wrote:
What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present?
a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case, 
visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS...

i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not 
available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to 
cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each 
label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational 
(although that leads to drastic code bloat)
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Lea de Groot]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:35:26 +1000, Andrew Krespanis wrote:
> What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
> present? View that form in anything other than a CSS capable browser
> and usibility goes right out the window...
> 
> That way you can still use display:block; for any elements you want
> seperate, and form br {display:none;} to hide the breaks when they
> aren't needed.

Hmmm... its a good point, but I don't like the solution (from a 
semantically pure point of view - might do that in real life ;)).
I think I'd go back to wrapping the label-input combo in a div.

BTW, I'm pleased to announce that Andrew has agreed to do the 
presentation for the next WSG meeting in Brisbane - nananana everyone 
who is interstate or overseas ;)
Brisvegas residents - mark February 9 in your diary! 
;)

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Andrew Krespanis]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:12:57 +, Patrick H. Lauke
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The "most correct way" (tm): 
> 
>  
>  Search Club Listings
>  Name of club
>  
>  State
>  
>  ...  
>  
>  
> 

What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't
present? View that form in anything other than a CSS capable browser
and usibility goes right out the window...

That way you can still use display:block; for any elements you want
seperate, and form br {display:none;} to hide the breaks when they
aren't needed.

Andrew.

http://leftjustified.net/
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Lea de Groot]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:52:16 +, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> if i had more than one fieldset (e.g. many sub-sections within the 
> form), i would not have the submit as an element of the last 
> fieldset, but outside, and wrap everything in another fieldset as 
> mentioned above

Hmmm, interesting.
I've been trying different tag structures with forms recently, but 
haven't been happy with the semanticness (its a word if I use it as one 
;)) of anything I've done. Simply stripping it back to bare bones and 
using css to make the display block level hadn't occurred to me (Doh!). 
It feels like overkill to wrap all the fieldsets in another fieldset, 
simply to include the submit button in a fieldset, but I think thats 
simply unfamiliarity.

I do think that the submit button relates to the other fields as a 
group, rather than individually, so even for one fieldset, logically we 
should put the overkill solution of:



...

   


Yuk!

Thanks :)

Lea
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Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Wayne Godfrey]

The simplicity of it all.

Thanks Patrick, I doubt that I would have ever come up with this solution,
which is why I posed the question in the first place!! Forms are mysterious
creatures to meThanks again.

wayne

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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Lea de Groot wrote:
Would you include the submit button in the fieldset by default?
I had been assuming that, semantically, it sat outside the fieldset(s).
purely from a technical point of view, if you wanted the submit button 
outside of the fieldset, you'd have to put another block level element 
(fieldset seems the best, imho, but even a neutral div would do) around 
the content of the form to validate as xhtml strict.




...




from a semantic point of view, fieldset groups related form elements 
together. i don't see why the submit button would not be in relation to 
the other elements...if anything, the submit button is the one element 
that relates to everything else in the form, as it's the one element 
that sends all that stuff out. however, if i had more than one fieldset 
(e.g. many sub-sections within the form), i would not have the submit as 
an element of the last fieldset, but outside, and wrap everything in 
another fieldset as mentioned above, i.e.




...


...

   


hope that makes sense...
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Lea de Groot]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:12:57 +, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> 
> 

Would you include the submit button in the fieldset by default?
I had been assuming that, semantically, it sat outside the fieldset(s).

curious,
Lea
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Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] A question of semantics

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Wayne Godfrey wrote:
 what would be considered the most semantically
correct way of doing it.
The "most correct way" (tm):


Search Club Listings
Name of club

State

...



and have a something like
label,input,select { display: block; }
so that each label and input is on a new line.
The reason for people wanting to use tables, definition lists, or 
similar constructs for forms stems purely from their desire to style it 
a certain way...but the above is the bare minimum, cleanest way, imho.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
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