RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
My advice would be to try as hard as you can NOT to sell accessibility. Sell your overall services, but mention that your competitors 'tend' to leave their customers vulnerable to law suits, exclude customers for no good reason, etc. Tell your clients that your competitors are literally 'sub-standard'. If your client looks for a technical explanation of this, explain that your work is intended to be 'forwards-compatible', tell them that you don't expect to get any follow up work when you are finished, etc Success in any venture requires you to be different from everyone else, somehow. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
>Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe >as professionals providing web design / development services that this >should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should >expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house >compliant. :) I have a strong belief that here in Australia a lot of >websites are going to be tested on discrimination grounds - do you want to >be the one bearing this as the provider? Compliant? I see it (and try to explain it) in much more more obvious way - as not wanting to exclude people ... ... for any business locking out potential customers is bad! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
Take a quick look here - you will see that javascript off is actually more common than people using safari or opera! I know this is only 1 site - but it does have some relevance. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 1:54 PM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On May 21, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > > " I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, >> nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, >> free of charge" >> >> Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also >> believe as professionals providing web design / development services that >> this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client >> should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house >> compliant. :) >> > > Yes, I embrace that, an accessibility should be a de facto for a web design > service. > However, a highly accessible site that can be accessed by everyone > regardless of disability takes a lot of care and time - but this isn't a > problem for me. When I said "I have no success in selling accessibility", I > meant apart from the basic needs (everything lined up, look good, accessible > with mouse and keyboard), clients DO NOT CARE if a person uses screen reader > to browse his site. We need law to make them CARE, but there isn't any. > > Take the shopping site example, he wants the add cart not re-direct to cart > page, because he thinks this will prevent people to shop more in his shop > (now, this is another whole study of shopper behaviors which I don't know > of). I can delivery what he wants on this , but you and other said and I > knew it too, that I need to provide a confirmation message, and the best way > to do it is using ajax /js as you suggested, quote your word: "This > obviously has both usability and accessibility issues.". > > This is what I am unable to sell. Using an ajax validation to show > confirmation/warning message works pretty well, the only time it doesn't > work is someone using a special UA that supports no JS/AJAX. > > By 'de facto', if client said I don't want to redirect to checkout page. I > answer with a 'no problem' because I know a JS validation can take care of > some accessibility, and I don't need to explain anything to him but deliver > what he wants. But if I am to be so accessible purist, I will say, no, we > can't do that, because how if someone with a screen reader that has no > support of JS/AJAX shops your store, and no redirection to the checkout > page, then she may get confuse and this is very bad for you site. No law > backs me up, and I am unable to sell that 'maybe, possible' 1% > accessibility. A good notion and "The power of the Web is in its > universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential > aspect." won't work unless there is a law says so. > > > tee > > > > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
On May 21, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote: " I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, free of charge" Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe as professionals providing web design / development services that this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house compliant. :) Yes, I embrace that, an accessibility should be a de facto for a web design service. However, a highly accessible site that can be accessed by everyone regardless of disability takes a lot of care and time - but this isn't a problem for me. When I said "I have no success in selling accessibility", I meant apart from the basic needs (everything lined up, look good, accessible with mouse and keyboard), clients DO NOT CARE if a person uses screen reader to browse his site. We need law to make them CARE, but there isn't any. Take the shopping site example, he wants the add cart not re-direct to cart page, because he thinks this will prevent people to shop more in his shop (now, this is another whole study of shopper behaviors which I don't know of). I can delivery what he wants on this , but you and other said and I knew it too, that I need to provide a confirmation message, and the best way to do it is using ajax /js as you suggested, quote your word: "This obviously has both usability and accessibility issues.". This is what I am unable to sell. Using an ajax validation to show confirmation/warning message works pretty well, the only time it doesn't work is someone using a special UA that supports no JS/AJAX. By 'de facto', if client said I don't want to redirect to checkout page. I answer with a 'no problem' because I know a JS validation can take care of some accessibility, and I don't need to explain anything to him but deliver what he wants. But if I am to be so accessible purist, I will say, no, we can't do that, because how if someone with a screen reader that has no support of JS/AJAX shops your store, and no redirection to the checkout page, then she may get confuse and this is very bad for you site. No law backs me up, and I am unable to sell that 'maybe, possible' 1% accessibility. A good notion and “The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect.” won't work unless there is a law says so. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
"Ooooh ! What does that button do ?" If you call it "CHECKOUT", the user knows what will happen. Yes, it will take her straight to the checkout page where she can complete the transaction. If you call it "ADD TO SHOPPING CART", you are using a metaphor here. You are telling the user that there is a "shopping cart" just as there is one in the local departmental store. You are framing the user's mental model. So the user pictures a virtual shopping cart, where she can keep on adding items and when she is done, she can proceed to "checkout". Remember, if you are using the label "ADD TO SHOPPING CART", you should also have a corresponding icon and an area on the top right of the page designated and labeled as a "SHOPPING CART". This area will update on each click of the "ADD ..." button, so the user knows that she has added some items to the virtual shopping cart. -- Bipul Keshri Senior Information Architect Mobile: +91 999 910 6202 On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:56 AM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user-friendly? Be > redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page? > > Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only > eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I have no > comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes sense to me as a > customer because this is how I expect it to be : add cart, process to > checkout. I don't want one more click to do the checkout. But client thinks > otherwise, he wants no redirect as he wants people continue shopping. Also > makes sense too, though not for my habit, but I have learned that I don't > make sites for myself :-) > > I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue. > > Thanks! > > tee > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
On May 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote: I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it Sadly, that's probably true enough. But usability is much easier to sell - especially if framed in terms of "you do want your customers to be able to find and purchase your products, don't you?" "Accessibility" doesn't even have to be a part of the conversation, it's just a huge component of usability. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
" I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, free of charge" Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe as professionals providing web design / development services that this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house compliant. :) I have a strong belief that here in Australia a lot of websites are going to be tested on discrimination grounds - do you want to be the one bearing this as the provider? Cheers Adam On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 12:56 PM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On May 21, 2008, at 4:48 AM, Adam Martin wrote: > > I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a product to >> the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka ajax) to add the >> product to the cart and inform the user that the item has been added. This >> obviously has both usability and accessibility issues. >> > > Hi Adam, just learned that I can easily switch on/off from the > configuration, and the js validation has already in place. The transition of > how the message shows up isn't very smooth (jumpy!) when the product to add > to cart isn't at the top of the page. > > I will try talk client out of it, my worry is that this is not a client who > cares about people using other UA except the common browsers. I have no > success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it, > so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, free of charge, > that I have not found anybody appreciate it except people from this list :-) > Such is a reality. > >> >> I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user expects. >> The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them shopping is in my >> opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the opposite - in that if the >> customer merrily puts item in the cart - they will then get a shock when >> they do get too see the cart.. and give up. >> >> Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day 1. >> > > Same here. There were times (in beta) I regretted being jumping in too > early for this software, however, as the site's launch date gets closer, I > feel that I have after all made a great choice talking client into waiting > this long - I'd been building this site since day 1. A great learning > opportunity that I can also get paid. > > tee > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
On May 21, 2008, at 4:48 AM, Adam Martin wrote: I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a product to the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka ajax) to add the product to the cart and inform the user that the item has been added. This obviously has both usability and accessibility issues. Hi Adam, just learned that I can easily switch on/off from the configuration, and the js validation has already in place. The transition of how the message shows up isn't very smooth (jumpy!) when the product to add to cart isn't at the top of the page. I will try talk client out of it, my worry is that this is not a client who cares about people using other UA except the common browsers. I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, free of charge, that I have not found anybody appreciate it except people from this list :-) Such is a reality. I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user expects. The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them shopping is in my opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the opposite - in that if the customer merrily puts item in the cart - they will then get a shock when they do get too see the cart.. and give up. Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day 1. Same here. There were times (in beta) I regretted being jumping in too early for this software, however, as the site's launch date gets closer, I feel that I have after all made a great choice talking client into waiting this long - I'd been building this site since day 1. A great learning opportunity that I can also get paid. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a product to the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka ajax) to add the product to the cart and inform the user that the item has been added. This obviously has both usability and accessibility issues. I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user expects. The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them shopping is in my opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the opposite - in that if the customer merrily puts item in the cart - they will then get a shock when they do get too see the cart.. and give up. Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day 1. Adam Tweakmag.com Andrew Maben wrote: On May 21, 2008, at 3:44 AM, walied yossry wrote: In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will call this "case A", or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item "case B". I think in either case a user needs confirmation that the selected item has indeed been added to the cart. Redirection to the cart page is probably the easiest (from a development perspective) and most reassuring (from a user perspective). I'd suggest that if you're going to stay on the shopping page then the user needs to see a message to the effect that "Item X has been added to your cart" with a "Checkout" link, and possibly even a list of all items in the cart - and even so a number of users are likely to take a side trip to the cart page to make sure, at least for the first purchase. Levels of trust in e-commerce remain low (sorry, no citations) so it's still very important to provide reassurance at every step. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
On May 21, 2008, at 3:44 AM, walied yossry wrote: In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will call this "case A", or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item "case B". I think in either case a user needs confirmation that the selected item has indeed been added to the cart. Redirection to the cart page is probably the easiest (from a development perspective) and most reassuring (from a user perspective). I'd suggest that if you're going to stay on the shopping page then the user needs to see a message to the effect that "Item X has been added to your cart" with a "Checkout" link, and possibly even a list of all items in the cart - and even so a number of users are likely to take a side trip to the cart page to make sure, at least for the first purchase. Levels of trust in e-commerce remain low (sorry, no citations) so it's still very important to provide reassurance at every step. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
Hi tee, Always think as if you're there...and think about the possibilites. In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will call this "case A", or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item "case B". I believe the ratio of "case A" is much higher than "case B". Now, if you're "case A", what would you want to see after clicking on "add to shopping cart" ? I tried to show you the way here instead of giving you the solution. :) cheers, On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 9:26 AM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user-friendly? Be > redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page? > > Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only > eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I have no > comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes sense to me as a > customer because this is how I expect it to be : add cart, process to > checkout. I don't want one more click to do the checkout. But client thinks > otherwise, he wants no redirect as he wants people continue shopping. Also > makes sense too, though not for my habit, but I have learned that I don't > make sites for myself :-) > > I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue. > > Thanks! > > tee > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- Walied Youssry Art Director mobile: (+2).010.1555.709 - "Do not argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you up with their experience." *peace* :-| *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***