Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Hi Nick [quote]The big advantage of em over % for font size is you can use em to control width of other sections of the web site like line length and container divs.[/quote] Oke, i get that. Use em's to determine the width of a div and the div will resize if the user sets his font size to let's say extra large. But this still doesn't tell me what the advantage is of using em's to determine font-size. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm trying to understand it :) Wybe ncowie wrote: The big advantage of em over % for font size is you can use em to control width of other sections of the web site like line length and container divs. An em is equal to the width of an uppercase M in that font face and point size, except on the web it is 16 pixels or the if the font size has been declare = to the font height. I would suggest that it is to do with the width of an uppercase M in Times New Roman in the default size as the default font for a PC browser. I did a little experimenting a couple of days ago with ems on my blog http://nickcowie.com/2005/about-em Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
But i'm not suggesting to use pixel sizing as an alternative for using em's. I'm suggesting to use percentages instead of em's. Actually i'm asking: what is the difference between using percentages or em's? (when it comes to font-size). Some of you have been trying to answer that question for me, but as you understand: i still don't get it.. Wybe Gene Falck wrote: Hi, You wrote: Oke, i get that. Use em's to determine the width of a div and the div will resize if the user sets his font size to let's say extra large. But this still doesn't tell me what the advantage is of using em's to determine font-size. First, the real big one is to go along with what the user has set as his/her normal type size, it's good to use 100% (or 100.01% which is needed for other reasons). That's important because a user with impaired eyesight or a very high resolution on a relatively small screen may have the size cranked up to compensate. If you insist on pixel sizing, the viewing options are fewer. Second, some layouts have been known to break at some screen size / type size combinations when resized type tries to fit in where the designer put it. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm trying to understand it Understood--when you have a question the only way to get the answer you need, sometimes, is to hang on like a bulldog. Regards, Gene Falck [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
wybe wrote: what is the difference between using percentages or em's? (when it comes to font-size). None. All other things being equal, 1em = 100%, 0.75em = 75%, 0.5em = 50% and so on. IE has a problem if the topmost size you define is ems, but beyond that it's all exactly the same. As others have already mentioned, you can't use % to define other things in relation to text size (borders, padding, etc), but just speaking of font sizes, it makes no difference. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
I get that! thnx -- http://www.sceneone.nl Patrick H. Lauke wrote: wybe wrote: what is the difference between using percentages or em's? (when it comes to font-size). None. All other things being equal, 1em = 100%, 0.75em = 75%, 0.5em = 50% and so on. IE has a problem if the topmost size you define is ems, but beyond that it's all exactly the same. As others have already mentioned, you can't use % to define other things in relation to text size (borders, padding, etc), but just speaking of font sizes, it makes no difference. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
ncowie wrote: An em is equal to the width of an uppercase M in that font face and That would be a print media em. For the web, we have a standard definition: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#em-width point size, except on the web it is 16 pixels or the if the font size has been declare = to the font height. No, it's not 16px. It's whatever size the user's browser default is set to. In most modern browsers, it just happens to start at 16px in most cases, but that is partly by accident, and is subject to user adjustment in multiple ways. Technically, the most common browser default is 12pt (IE Win), as it was in Netscape 4 and below. At the 96 DPI doze default, 12pt translates to 16px. No matter how a user adjusts his doze system font size, the default (medium) is always 12pt. If he selects large fonts, the DPI is changed to 120, with the result that 12pt in standards mode becomes 20px. Other easy to select system font size settings are 150% and 200%, making 12pt 24px and 32px respectively. Note that on high resolution (1400 or more wide) laptops, the manufacturers commonly change from the default to large fonts on the assembly line. Note too that laptops have overtaken desktop systems in sales, so large fonts by default aren't particularly uncommon any more. I would suggest that it is to do with the width of an uppercase M in Times New Roman in the default size as the default font for a PC browser. It's as the W3C defines it above. Different font families render at differing apparent sizes for any given nominal font size. Times New Roman is much smaller than Georgia and Verdana. I did a little experimenting a couple of days ago with ems on my blog http://nickcowie.com/2005/about-em Actually, the Times New Roman on that page isn't necessarily Times New Roman, since you failed to quote it in your style rule. On this system, all profiles in all browsers have the default set to 20px. On my Linux server, all profiles in all browsers have the default set to 28px, or an equivalent pt size. On my other systems, some are set to 16px, but most are set higher, typically to 22px (1400 wide) or 26px (1600 wide). 16px can be awfully small compared to the default (unlike the assertion on your page): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/points-168d-1792w.png http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/PointsDemo.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/nickcowie1.png Since your your blog link above ATM isn't valid XHTML http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fnickcowie.com%2F2005%2Fabout-em, I've taken the liberty of reducing it to the testcase and description, with some minor adjustments at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/about-em.html in order to provide an alternate look, with a 1280 wide resolution OS/2 screenshot at http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/nickcowie2.png showing Times New Roman doesn't necessarily fit your description. -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Felix Miata wrote: No, it's not 16px. It's whatever size the user's browser default is set to. In most modern browsers, it just happens to start at 16px in most cases, but that is partly by accident, and is subject to user adjustment in multiple ways. The W3C has specified 16px/96ppi as a standard default text size, and most modern browsers on the Macintosh and Windows platforms have honored that specification since 2000*. (Alas, that rules out Netscape 4.x - grin) None-the-less, today's Standards compliant browser generally renders a default EM as 16 pixels. (See the W3C CSS1 Specifications at www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-CSS1-19990111#length-units plus the Errata Notice correcting the original CSS1 spec. www.w3.org/Style/css1-updates/REC-CSS1-19990111-errata.html) JF -- John Foliot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca Web Accessibility Testing and Services http://www.wats.ca Phone: 1-613-482-7053 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Wybe wrote: Actually i'm asking: what is the difference between using percentages or em's? (when it comes to font-size). No difference for just font-size. The advantage comes in using ems for both font-size and layout dimensions. Your layout can be proportional to your font size. Read Patrick Griffith's Elastic Layout http://www.alistapart.com/articles/elastic/ Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
I believe the size of EM is the default size assigned by the browser, thus
if the browsers default font size is 12px then 1em is 12px.
Or if you set the
body
{
font-size: 12px;
}
and
p
{
font-size: 1.5em;
}
The size would be 18px.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand it works.
Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox
an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 .
http://www.pacificfox.com - Web Design and Development
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wybe
Sent: Sunday, 25 September 2005 8:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Hi
I was wondering about the use of em's to determin your font
size. What is the difference between using em's or
percentages? Percentages work fine for me but W3C seem to be
very enthousiastic about
using em's.
And another thing i can't figure out is this: what is the
size of 1em?
Is it the width of the letter 'm' of a font?
Wybe
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
wybe wrote: I was wondering about the use of em's to determin your font size. What is the difference between using em's or percentages? If http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms and http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingPercentages aren't good enough explanations, let's change them so they are. Percentages work fine for me but W3C seem to be very enthousiastic about using em's. Ems are partiticularly good for sizing container widths, as they make it possible to keep line-lengths the same regardless of font-size: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/widths-em-v-px.html And another thing i can't figure out is this: what is the size of 1em? Is it the width of the letter 'm' of a font? Here's the official definition: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#em-width -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
I think he meant in the middle of his layout if he uses an em and
makes it bigger than the other text.
There is no problem with this if its a chunk of text but if you're
just using em as a single linesomewhere, then i'd say it was bad.
On 24 Sep 2005, at 23:12, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox wrote:
I believe the size of EM is the default size assigned by the
browser, thus
if the browsers default font size is 12px then 1em is 12px.
Or if you set the
body
{
font-size: 12px;
}
and
p
{
font-size: 1.5em;
}
The size would be 18px.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand it
works.
Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox
an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 .
http://www.pacificfox.com - Web Design and Development
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wybe
Sent: Sunday, 25 September 2005 8:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Hi
I was wondering about the use of em's to determin your font
size. What is the difference between using em's or
percentages? Percentages work fine for me but W3C seem to be
very enthousiastic about
using em's.
And another thing i can't figure out is this: what is the
size of 1em?
Is it the width of the letter 'm' of a font?
Wybe
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Zach Inglis // www.zachinglis.com
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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**
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
Disregard my last statement, I got the wrong end of the stick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 'em' versus '%'
The big advantage of em over % for font size is you can use em to control width of other sections of the web site like line length and container divs. An em is equal to the width of an uppercase M in that font face and point size, except on the web it is 16 pixels or the if the font size has been declare = to the font height. I would suggest that it is to do with the width of an uppercase M in Times New Roman in the default size as the default font for a PC browser. I did a little experimenting a couple of days ago with ems on my blog http://nickcowie.com/2005/about-em Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
