Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
Cat, That's the holy trinity of web design: content, presentation and behavior. ;) Joseph R. B. Taylor /Web Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com On 10/20/10 1:19 PM, cat soul wrote: I thank you for that link, David. The picture I am developing now is this: HTML and CSS should be used strictly for content, structure and formatting. *Behaviors* are best left to things like Javascript. Are these two statements ones that most here can buy into? Are they fair statements, accurate reflections of practice and real-world usage? IOW, there are things we *can* do, and out of that, there are things we ought do, or ought not do, based on the demonstrable. cs On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:46 AM, David Dorward wrote: On 20 Oct 2010, at 16:59, cat soul wrote: will there be/can there be a new command/property which can be read by each device the way it needs to be? could there be soon a touch command so that you could write the code like: hover, do this. If no hover, then touch, do this. If no touch, then __ and do this We shouldn't need it. We have :hover which can be thought of When the user is potentially about to activate something and we have :active which is When the user is activating something. That should be enough until you start trying to use :hover for doing things beyond indicating the possibility of activation, and one you start doing that … http://www.cennydd.co.uk/2010/end-hover-abuse-now/ -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
Help me if I mis-interpret the writer's fine article, but this pertains to Javascript rollovers, too. The end user doesn't know and doesn't care whether that thing popping up was a CSS Hover, or a Javascript rollover. S/he only knows that, by innocently mousing around, something popped up without his/her deciding to actively invoke the popping up her/himself. so maybe these rollovers, when they do ANYTHING besides indicate a clickable thing, are passe, amateurish techniques associated with the earlier days of the internet when the most cool thing was stuff happening. Now we're all over it..we've seen it, and we are back to function, information, usability, speed... On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:46 AM, David Dorward wrote: That should be enough until you start trying to use :hover for doing things beyond indicating the possibility of activation, and one you start doing that … http://www.cennydd.co.uk/2010/end-hover- abuse-now/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
Well, I am down with that..I never did care for the jumpy, spinny, whizzy things... As a print designer, I'm all about good design, good typography, quality imagery and clear communication. however, you sometimes get the idea that if you don't pay obeisance to that fashion (jumpy, spinny, whizzy), you'll be ignored and marginalized in favor of those whose sites are a multi-sensory fantasmatron of motion, speed and sounds. However, books have been captivating people for centuries and they just sit there until you pick them up and use them. I would be happy to have none of that silly stuff on my page, but then I get told my site looks a bit dated. cs On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Joseph Taylor wrote: Cat, That's the holy trinity of web design: content, presentation and behavior. ;) Joseph R. B. Taylor Web Designer / Developer -- Sites by Joe, LLC Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design Phone: (609) 335-3076 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com On 10/20/10 1:19 PM, cat soul wrote: I thank you for that link, David. The picture I am developing now is this: HTML and CSS should be used strictly for content, structure and formatting. *Behaviors* are best left to things like Javascript. Are these two statements ones that most here can buy into? Are they fair statements, accurate reflections of practice and real- world usage? IOW, there are things we *can* do, and out of that, there are things we ought do, or ought not do, based on the demonstrable. cs On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:46 AM, David Dorward wrote: On 20 Oct 2010, at 16:59, cat soul wrote: will there be/can there be a new command/property which can be read by each device the way it needs to be? could there be soon a touch command so that you could write the code like: hover, do this. If no hover, then touch, do this. If no touch, then __ and do this We shouldn't need it. We have :hover which can be thought of When the user is potentially about to activate something and we have :active which is When the user is activating something. That should be enough until you start trying to use :hover for doing things beyond indicating the possibility of activation, and one you start doing that … http://www.cennydd.co.uk/2010/end- hover-abuse-now/ -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
On 10/20/10 10:19 AM, cat soul wrote: The picture I am developing now is this: HTML and CSS should be used strictly for content, structure and formatting. *Behaviors* are best left to things like Javascript. But it's not that cut and dried -- CSS has always had behaviors, e.g. :hover, :focus, as well. so maybe these rollovers, when they do ANYTHING besides indicate a clickable thing, are passe, amateurish techniques ... Now we're all over it..we've seen it, and we are back to function, information, usability, speed... And maybe providing expanded affordances through hover behaviors is totally appropriate in some circumstances, to deliver exactly those benefits. :-) YMMV, -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
I agree thoroughly, Hassan. Yet as this is a best-practices discussion and group, and since we've been hearing that these things A) don't always work and B) aren't always well-received by end users, we're left with a need. And that need is to know: out of the universe of what we can do, what ought we do to ensure as universal an experience as possible? cs On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: But it's not that cut and dried -- CSS has always had behaviors, e.g. :hover, :focus, as well. so maybe these rollovers, when they do ANYTHING besides indicate a clickable thing, are passe, amateurish techniques ... Now we're all over it..we've seen it, and we are back to function, information, usability, speed... And maybe providing expanded affordances through hover behaviors is totally appropriate in some circumstances, to deliver exactly those benefits. :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: I agree thoroughly, Hassan. Yet as this is a best-practices discussion and group, and since we've been hearing that these things A) don't always work and B) aren't always well-received by end users, we're left with a need. And that need is to know: out of the universe of what we can do, what ought we do to ensure as universal an experience as possible? progressive enhancement is what you ought to do. and to answer the question if the experience needs to be same universally we have the answer right here: http://dowebsitesneedtobeexperiencedexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/ -- Jason Arnold http://www.jasonarnold.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
On 10/20/10 11:42 AM, cat soul wrote: I agree thoroughly, Hassan. Yet as this is a best-practices discussion and group, and since we've been hearing that these things A) don't always work and B) aren't always well-received by end users, we're left with a need. And that need is to know: out of the universe of what we can do, what ought we do to ensure as universal an experience as possible? I don't see any such need. Every site or application needs to be evaluated in terms of the expected audience. Testing with real users is essential, but you can still reasonably start with assumptions that differ depending on whether you're building e.g. an intranet inventory-management system vs a public lolcats-haiku-sharing site :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
stop sending me emails On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: On 10/20/10 11:42 AM, cat soul wrote: I agree thoroughly, Hassan. Yet as this is a best-practices discussion and group, and since we've been hearing that these things A) don't always work and B) aren't always well-received by end users, we're left with a need. And that need is to know: out of the universe of what we can do, what ought we do to ensure as universal an experience as possible? I don't see any such need. Every site or application needs to be evaluated in terms of the expected audience. Testing with real users is essential, but you can still reasonably start with assumptions that differ depending on whether you're building e.g. an intranet inventory-management system vs a public lolcats-haiku-sharing site :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jonathan T. McInerney Vice President, Pearse Street, Inc. www.pearsestreet.com 800-985-5932 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
Heh! That is pretty funny! However, clients may have the need to ensure a universal experience. One example of this is in their brand values, which may call for a certain look and feel. If a person experiences one thing on their iPad and another experiences something different on their HP notebook, those brand values could be said to have been compromised, diluted, changed.. cs On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Jason Arnold wrote: progressive enhancement is what you ought to do. and to answer the question if the experience needs to be same universally we have the answer right here: http://dowebsitesneedtobeexperiencedexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/ -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS, :hover and touch screen devices (Was: CSS rollovers for images?)
stop sending me emails We've stopped sending this person emails. no need to comment on this. :) Continue with this great thread! Thanks Russ BTW, every WSG email that goes out has an unsubscribe link at the bottom. Better to click that that tell 7,000 people you don't want any emails :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
