Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
I agree with you Chris, Another thing is... MS will eventually update IE... and the population will notice the "new" features... and hail IE as the best browser... Although all the other major browsers already support such features, but developers dont use a lot of the functions because its not supported... The best example I can think is: :focus I use it all teh time... and people dont see it... although I have heard clients go nuts over a _javascript_ hack which does just what focus does... Now if IE supported the standards... life would be a lot easier! Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.neester.com Chris Blown wrote: On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. Microsoft's position creates a condition where they could suppress and control enhancement and innovation. Simple fact is that IE doesn't make M$ money, its actually lost them more money than any other application. M$ are well known for subverting standards to protect their market share. This is the only reason why they have their fingers in the W3C pie. M$ are quite happy with the current situation. IE6 has major share and the fact that it lacks features is not greatly know by the average person, a fact that Microsoft are very happy with. I agree it is debatable that the average person might not find these features as important and you and I. This in itself is not an acceptable reason for not abiding by standards. The only thing _we_ can do is to continue educating people about the importance of web standards, eventually, ( and I believe this is already happening ) Microsoft might just sit up and take notice. The real issue is, Microsoft have the power, resources and money to free these features to the world and truth be told they don't care... Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say, Chris. What I was trying to say is this: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important to Microsoft. I absolutely and completely agree that they are important to designers, developers, and users alike. At least, however, this lack of innovation and the dominant position has given designers and developers a period of stability. Simon Jessey--mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]web : http://jessey.net/blog/work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: "Chris Blown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WSG" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet.
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
I don't think there will be ANY updates of IE. When "Longhorn" emerges, Internet Explorer will probably be subsumed by the operating system. In fact, I don't think IE will be available on any other platform after 6.0. Simon Jessey--mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]web : http://jessey.net/blog/work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? Another thing is...MS will eventually update IE...
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
You've caught me out Simon! I might of let that statement play devils advocate, so I could get up on the soap box for a bit. ;) Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-05-04 at 00:58, Simon Jessey wrote: I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say, Chris. What I was trying to say is this: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important to Microsoft. I absolutely and completely agree that they are important to designers, developers, and users alike. At least, however, this lack of innovation and the dominant position has given designers and developers a period of stability. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web : http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Blown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
Hi Simon, I think Microsoft's overall shift in position towards the browser-ware has evolved with what projects like Mozillas XUL Macromedia FLEX are trying to achieve in that its time to start looking at a XML based solution for building applications. The web browser to date has served its purpose but its still quite low-tech in regards to its overall capabilities in the multimedia region, that and the ability to deliver applications to remote terminals as if they were client-side. I can see Enterprise level corporations and what not, looking to build client based applications that can be deployed on any machine at anytime, as well as not be hit with copious amounts of license issues (that and asset management is a nightmare). The current browser based applications work for now, but as most of you all would gather, the DHTML/FLASH solution has its fair share of problems (mainly time). In comes solutions like Longhorn, were by they are able to provide you with a kind of browser/api to use in order to build better client based applications? So sooner or later, you have to understand that the current browser based solutions will eventually fade way into different technology. So in many ways its probably not a good idea to invest time and money into an aging language such as HTML/CSS? I like how Mozilla is also embracing XUL solutions but still keeping grass roots with Web? I dunno, Microsoft has kept IE low priority probably for the above reason. Of course these are just my whacked theories. -- Regards, Scott Barnes - http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.bestrates.com.au Simon Jessey wrote: I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say, Chris. What I was trying to say is this: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important */to Microsoft./* I absolutely and completely agree that they are important to designers, developers, and users alike. At least, however, this lack of innovation and the dominant position has given designers and developers a period of stability. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] web : http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Blown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode
It uses the CSS attribute: writing-mode I havent heard, or seen this before... where did it come from? anyone know - or have any info about this? It's a Microsoft proprietary thing. Not valid. Only works in IE. Having said that, take a look at this CSS3 candidate recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-css3-text-20030514/#writing-mode Although I'm still assuming that your software is relying on the Microsoft implementation. Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode
Ok thanks guys! That cleared up my curiosity for the day! btw another thing... I have been told by someone that the W3C is controlled by MS. Which I thought was total crap since IE is the worst browser out there... I know that MS dontated a lot of tech to W3C... is there any validity to my friends suggestion?? Thanks! Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.neester.com Patrick Griffiths wrote: It uses the CSS attribute: writing-mode I havent heard, or seen this before... where did it come from? anyone know - or have any info about this? It's a Microsoft proprietary thing. Not valid. Only works in IE. Having said that, take a look at this CSS3 candidate recommendation: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-css3-text-20030514/#writing-mode Although I'm still assuming that your software is relying on the Microsoft implementation. Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
Microsoft is indeed a major contributor to the World Wide Web Consortium, but the W3C is an independent organization. Financial and technical contributions come from a wide variety of industry sources. Microsoft certainly DOESN'T call the shots at the W3C. You should never think of IE as "the worst browser out there". Internet Explorer was one of the first web browsers to include support for Cascading Style Sheets. IE5 for the Mac has revolutionary support. IE6.0/Win is actually an excellent browser, with good support for most of CSS1 and a large proportion of CSS2. Most IE frustration is caused by the need for web designers to support earlier versions of IE (5.0 and 5.5), and the lack of updates to the existing client. Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. The need for native PNG alpha transparency support, full support for position:fixed, and other similar things DO frustrate designers; however, we must be thankful that IE6 is as good as it is. Remember, it was not all that long ago that the "worst browser out there" was Netscape Navigator 4.x. For too long, web designers were forced to accomodate this truly awful abomination. Thankfully, its market share now barely registers on the browser stats charts. Simon Jessey--mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]web : http://jessey.net/blog/work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode Ok thanks guys!That cleared up my curiosity for the day!btw another thing...I have been told by someone that the W3C is controlled by MS.Which I thought was total crap since IE is the worst browser out there...I know that MS dontated a lot of tech to W3C... is there any validity to my friends suggestion??
RE: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
AMEN Brother! Thanks for saying it. Kinda gets lonely out on this
limb... (sorry for the content-free reply)
P
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon
JesseySent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:56 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS
runs W3C?
Microsoft is indeed a major contributor
to the World Wide Web Consortium, but the W3C is an independent organization.
Financial and technical contributions come from a wide variety of industry
sources. Microsoft certainly DOESN'T call the shots at the W3C.
You should never think of IE as "the
worst browser out there". Internet Explorer was one of the first web browsers
to include support for Cascading Style Sheets. IE5 for the Mac has
revolutionary support. IE6.0/Win is actually an excellent browser, with good
support for most of CSS1 and a large proportion of CSS2. Most IE frustration
is caused by the need for web designers to support earlier versions of IE (5.0
and 5.5), and the lack of updates to the existing client.
Microsoft's dominant market position
creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very
important. The need for native PNG alpha transparency support, full support
for position:fixed, and other similar things DO frustrate designers; however,
we must be thankful that IE6 is as good as it is.
Remember, it was not all that long ago
that the "worst browser out there" was Netscape Navigator 4.x. For too long,
web designers were forced to accomodate this truly awful abomination.
Thankfully, its market share now barely registers on the browser stats
charts.
Simon
Jessey--mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]web : http://jessey.net/blog/work: http://keystonewebsites.com/
- Original Message -
From:
Chris
Stratford
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:03
AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS:
writing-mode
Ok thanks guys!That cleared up my curiosity for the
day!btw another thing...I have been told by someone that the
W3C is controlled by MS.Which I thought was total crap since IE is the
worst browser out there...I know that MS dontated a lot of tech to
W3C... is there any validity to my friends
suggestion??
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. Microsoft's position creates a condition where they could suppress and control enhancement and innovation. Simple fact is that IE doesn't make M$ money, its actually lost them more money than any other application. M$ are well known for subverting standards to protect their market share. This is the only reason why they have their fingers in the W3C pie. M$ are quite happy with the current situation. IE6 has major share and the fact that it lacks features is not greatly know by the average person, a fact that Microsoft are very happy with. I agree it is debatable that the average person might not find these features as important and you and I. This in itself is not an acceptable reason for not abiding by standards. The only thing _we_ can do is to continue educating people about the importance of web standards, eventually, ( and I believe this is already happening ) Microsoft might just sit up and take notice. The real issue is, Microsoft have the power, resources and money to free these features to the world and truth be told they don't care... Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
