Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
At 8/25/2009 10:11 PM, Andrew Harris wrote: How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* In all of the discussions of this issue I've read, the final wisdom has been to actually hard-code the numbering of contracts, bylaws, etc. in nested lists, suppressing the normal list-style-type. That might seem retro, but you can't afford to have any of the numbering change because of an editing error. The whole point behind auto-numbering is thoughtless re-numbering, something a legal document cannot tolerate. It would be better to have an accidentally-deleted item leave a hole in the numbering that a proofreader could easily catch than to have HTML automatically close up the numbering sequentially over such an elision. Another advantage is that the numbering is manifest in the markup itself, rather than being a sequence of bare LIs. Someone can snip an excerpt from the markup with the numbering intact. (In this vein, implementing the numbering of a contract with JavaScript sounds about as smart as printing the contract on sheets of ice.) This decision is made easier, of course, by the limited auto-numbering options of HTML! Justification for hard-coding the numbering from a semantic perspective is that the numbering is actually integral to the content and not merely an incidental by-product of its sequence in the greater list. I believe the logic is that once the legal document is finalized, an item's number becomes part of its fixed name used in quoting and references and a great weight of legality rests on the accuracy and persistence of the numbering. Of course, when you're drafting a contract it's handy to use auto-numbering in word processing, but once you get to the final draft stage I'd freeze it for HTML. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
For an example how to solve this take a look at http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl It's an online archieve of the legislation of the city of Stadskanaal in the Netherlands. As you can see i've moved the nummers of the listitems to the content of the documents. Koen Willems Citeren Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com: How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical structure... nested ordered lists! I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5. * BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their meaning. -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote: For an example how to solve this take a look at http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl It's an online archieve of the legislation of the city of Stadskanaal in the Netherlands. As you can see i've moved the nummers of the listitems to the content of the documents. Koen Willems Citeren Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com: How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical structure... nested ordered lists! I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5. * BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their meaning. -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
This straight OL does not work from a pure XHTML 1.0 Strict perspective unless your legal documents conform to the browsers' default list numbering scheme. The *'type'* attribute is not valid in XHTML 1.0 which really annoys me to no end, since I work for a county government. The numbering in a legal document is an integral part of the pages' content and should not be left to the determination of the CSS, because once you separate the CSS from the XHTML the list's numbering is not valid and much of the use and meaning for the document is lost. I am not sure, but I expect that HTML5 has a similar issue. Correct me if I am wrong. I hope I am. Jim On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 08:16, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
This isn't work correctly: 'counter-reset' and other CSS styles for this nested lists not supported by IE. 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote: -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct way to mark up this particular set of data. Simple as. By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same across any browser under the Sun. Cheers, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote: IE not understand this. You don't agree? 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote: This isn't work correctly: 'counter-reset' and other CSS styles for this nested lists not supported by IE. 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote: -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
IE not understand this. You don't agree? 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] legal list numbering
Jason, the markup you presented is semanticly ok, but doesn't solve the issue topic starter mentioned. See the example site i've given before for a solution, http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl Koen Willems -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] Namens Jason Grant Verzonden: woensdag 26 augustus 2009 16:12 Aan: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Onderwerp: Re: [WSG] legal list numbering Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct way to mark up this particular set of data. Simple as. By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same across any browser under the Sun. Cheers, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote: IE not understand this. You don't agree? 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering (webstandardsgroup: to exclusive)
HTML5 should *never *include specifications for what you're asking. From an
pure HTML standpoint, you should never be specifying what type of numbering
scheme to use, just how to structure list items. The context of *type* you
speak of is presentational. Maybe a *class=legal* attribute might assist
you. Then it is for the CSS to specify the look.
If you're looking for pixel-perfect representation, that is *not* what
HTML/CSS or even Web browsers were intended to do. A potential workaround
may be to offer an HTML version (with JavaScript to prefix the parent
section numbers in each list item == progressive enhancement), but if you
want to maintain the absolute original format, offer a PDF version.
A simple solution using inline CSS and JavaScript (ALWAYS separate them):
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
titleLegal Document/title
style type=text/css
/*** KEEP THIS IN A SEPARATE FILE ***/
ol.legal,
ol.legal ol {/* default display, one reference per
item */
list-style-type: decimal;
padding-left: 1em;
margin-left: .5em;
}
body.ready ol.legal,
body.ready ol.legal ol {/* if JS enabled, allow it to specify
the reference numbers */
list-style-type: none;
}
body.ready ol.legal {
padding-left: 0;
}
body.ready ol.legal span.reference {
padding-right: .5em;
}
/style
!-- using jQuery for DOM traversal --
script type=text/javascript
src=http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.3.2/jquery.min.js;
/script
script type=text/javascript
/*** KEEP THIS IN A SEPARATE FILE ***/
$(function() {
$('body').addClass('ready'); /* let CSS know that JS is enabled
*/
$('ol.legal li')
.each(function() {
/* each list item should also reference all of it's
ancestors' positions */
var $li = $(this);
$li
.prepend( /* add to beginning of each list item */
'span class=reference' +
$li
.parents('li')
.andSelf()
.map(function() { return
$(this).prevAll().size() + 1; }) /* map all reference positions as array */
.get()
.join('.')
+ '/span'
);
});
});
/script
/head
body
h1Document Name/h1
!-- offer a PDF version if the user needs to see it in its ORIGINAL
format --
pA a href=#PDF version/a is available./p
!-- only layout the structure of the legal document here. CSS should
handle the rest --
ol class=legal
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah
ol
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah
ol
liBlah blah/li
liBlah blah/li
liBlah blah/li
/ol
/li
/ol
/li
/ol
/body
/html
Regards,
Jason T. Featheringham
Front-End Engineer
http://thejase.com
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote:
Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct
way to mark up this particular set of data.
Simple as.
By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same
across any browser under the Sun.
Cheers,
Jason
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote:
IE not understand this. You don't agree?
2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is
essentially
correct.
The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e.
1.1,
4.11, 5., etc.)
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)
Cheers,
Jason
--
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469
www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
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RE: [WSG] legal list numbering
Andrew You cannot mess around with legal documents by removing or changing numbering. If you can't code it up in html, it might be better to use pre or even to publish it in pdf. regards Mark Mark Huppert Library Web Development Integrated Library Management System Coordinator Division of Information R.G. Menzies Building (#2) The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 T: +61 02 6125 2752 F: +61 02 6125 4063 W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/ CRICOS Provider #00120C -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Harris Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2009 3:12 PM To: WSG Subject: [WSG] legal list numbering How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical structure... nested ordered lists! I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5. * BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their meaning. -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
