On Mon, 15 May 2017, George Dunlap wrote:
> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Volodymyr Babchuk
> wrote:
> >> Regarding modules (#3): The problem that loadable modules were
> >> primarily introduced to solve in Linux wasn't "How to deal with
> >> proprietary drivers", or even "how to deal with out-
On 12.05.17 21:47, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
vcoproc driver should be able to work with real HW, probably it will
handle real IRQs from device, we need one instance of driver per
device, not per domain. Andrii can correct me, but vcoproc framework
is not tied to vcpus, so it can work in context o
On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 7:47 PM, Volodymyr Babchuk
wrote:
>> Regarding modules (#3): The problem that loadable modules were
>> primarily introduced to solve in Linux wasn't "How to deal with
>> proprietary drivers", or even "how to deal with out-of-tree drivers".
>> The problem was, "How to we all
Hi George,
On 12 May 2017 at 14:48, George Dunlap wrote:
> [reordering slightly to make the response easier]
>> Okay, I don't know no platform where you need proprietary blob to
>> scale frequency. And I hope, I never will encounter one.
>> But I can imagine it: some firmware binary that needs t
Hi Stefano,
On 10 May 2017 at 21:24, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> I just want to point out that the comparision with tasklets is not
> helpful. Tasklets involve the idle vcpu, which we are trying to step away
> from because it increases irq latency. Tasklets don't provide any
> isolation. The cont
Hi Julien,
On 11 May 2017 at 13:07, Julien Grall wrote:
> Looking again at the documentation and chatting with other ARM folks. I was
> wrong on some part, sorry for the confusion.
Thank you for this investigation. One can't fit whole ARMv8 TRM in one's head :)
> It turns out that if you don't
Hello,
On 10/05/17 20:04, Julien Grall wrote:
On 05/10/2017 06:37 PM, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
Returning back to Native apps, I think we can make ctx switch even
faster by dropping p2m code. Imagine that we already created stage 1
MMU for native application. Then to
On 05/10/2017 06:37 PM, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
Returning back to Native apps, I think we can make ctx switch even
faster by dropping p2m code. Imagine that we already created stage 1
MMU for native application. Then to switch to app it we need only:
1. Enable TGE b
On Wed, 10 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> On 10.05.17 12:56, George Dunlap wrote:
> > But the context here is that Andrii asked something about whether this
> > "EL0 App" functionality could be used to service Xen as well as a
> > domain. You said it didn't make sense, and Dario (as I understand
Hello All,
On 10.05.17 12:56, George Dunlap wrote:
But the context here is that Andrii asked something about whether this
"EL0 App" functionality could be used to service Xen as well as a
domain. You said it didn't make sense, and Dario (as I understand it)
was pointing out that we already did
On Wed, 10 May 2017, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> Hi Julien,
>
> Returning back to Native apps, I think we can make ctx switch even
> faster by dropping p2m code. Imagine that we already created stage 1
> MMU for native application. Then to switch to app it we need only:
>
> 1. Enable TGE bit in HC
Hi Julien,
Returning back to Native apps, I think we can make ctx switch even
faster by dropping p2m code. Imagine that we already created stage 1
MMU for native application. Then to switch to app it we need only:
1. Enable TGE bit in HCR
2. Disable VM bit in HCR
3. Save/Program EL1_TTBR and frie
Hello George,
On 09.05.17 11:53, George Dunlap wrote:
A few years ago I'd have said ACPI was an x86 concept as well. :-) But
my point was mainly to give examples to Andrii of other ways stubdomains
were used.
-George
Thanks for mentioning the PV vTPM in this thread.
It looks really intere
Hi George,
On 05/10/2017 11:03 AM, George Dunlap wrote:
On 10/05/17 11:00, Julien Grall wrote:
On 05/10/2017 10:56 AM, George Dunlap wrote:
On 09/05/17 19:29, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Tue, 9 May 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
And it should not be hard to give such code access to the conte
On 10/05/17 11:00, Julien Grall wrote:
>
>
> On 05/10/2017 10:56 AM, George Dunlap wrote:
>> On 09/05/17 19:29, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 May 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
>> And it should not be hard to give such code access to the context
>> of
>> the vCPU that was previ
On 05/10/2017 10:56 AM, George Dunlap wrote:
On 09/05/17 19:29, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Tue, 9 May 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
And it should not be hard to give such code access to the context
of
the vCPU that was previously running (in x86, given we implement
what
we call lazy context s
On 09/05/17 19:29, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
And it should not be hard to give such code access to the context
of
the vCPU that was previously running (in x86, given we implement
what
we call lazy context switch, it's most likely
On Tue, 9 May 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> > > And it should not be hard to give such code access to the context
> > > of
> > > the vCPU that was previously running (in x86, given we implement
> > > what
> > > we call lazy context switch, it's most likely still loaded in the
> > > pCPU!).
> >
> >
On 05/09/2017 12:08 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 2017-05-09 at 11:32 +0100, Julien Grall wrote:
Hi Dario,
Hey,
On 05/09/2017 11:13 AM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
Which, FTR, is what we do in Xen for a bunch of things already,
i.e.,
softirqs and tasklets.
No, we don't switch to the idle
On Tue, 2017-05-09 at 11:32 +0100, Julien Grall wrote:
> Hi Dario,
>
Hey,
> On 05/09/2017 11:13 AM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> >
> > Which, FTR, is what we do in Xen for a bunch of things already,
> > i.e.,
> > softirqs and tasklets.
>
> No, we don't switch to the idle vCPU to handle tasklets or s
Hi Dario,
On 05/09/2017 11:13 AM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Fri, 2017-05-05 at 12:28 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
The advantages of using EL0 apps are:
- scheduled deterministically
- faster context switc
On Fri, 2017-05-05 at 12:28 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> > On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > > The advantages of using EL0 apps are:
> > > - scheduled deterministically
> > > - faster context switch
> > > - lower and deterministic late
On 08/05/17 19:31, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Mon, 8 May 2017, George Dunlap wrote:
>> On 05/05/17 20:28, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
Hello Stefano,
On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are s
On 05/08/2017 07:31 PM, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017, George Dunlap wrote:
On 05/05/17 20:28, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
Hello Stefano,
On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are small domains, ea
On Mon, 8 May 2017, George Dunlap wrote:
> On 05/05/17 20:28, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> >> Hello Stefano,
> >>
> >> On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> >>> Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are small domains, each running a single
> >>> applic
On 05/05/17 20:28, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
>> Hello Stefano,
>>
>> On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>>> Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are small domains, each running a single
>>> application. Typically they run unikernels rather than a full
On Fri, 5 May 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> Hello Stefano,
>
> On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are small domains, each running a single
> > application. Typically they run unikernels rather than a full fledged
> > operating system. A classic example
On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
If we are speaking about shared coprocessors framework, we need here several
things:
- MMIO access emulation
This could be run as EL0 app.
But even now, the MMIO access emulation has something to do with the
real hardware under the circumstances
Hello Stefano,
On 24.04.17 21:08, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
Stubdomains (stubdoms in short) are small domains, each running a single
application. Typically they run unikernels rather than a full fledged
operating system. A classic example is QEMU stubdoms on x86: one QEMU
stubdoms is started for
On 27/04/17 18:26, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
I'm back with profiler results.
Oh, yes. Sorry I forgot this thread. Continuing on that, you said that "Now
profiler shows that hypervisor spends time in spinlocks and p2m code."
Could you expand here? How the EL0 app w
Hi,
On 27/04/17 16:25, George Dunlap wrote:
A couple of notes:
- I think these things will inevitably end up being somewhat
complicated. We should always strive for simplicity and flexibility,
but the main thing is that we should use the right tool for the right
job: This is for handling synch
On 26/04/17 22:44, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
On 25 April 2017 at 14:43, Julien Grall wrote:
We will also need another type of application: one which is
periodically called by XEN itself, not actually servicing any domain
request. This is needed for a
coprocessor sh
Hi Julien,
I'm back with profiler results.
>> Oh, yes. Sorry I forgot this thread. Continuing on that, you said that "Now
>> profiler shows that hypervisor spends time in spinlocks and p2m code."
>>
>> Could you expand here? How the EL0 app will spend time in p2m code?
> I don't quite remember. I
On 21/04/17 22:24, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Julien Grall wrote:
>> Hi Volodymyr,
>>
>> On 21/04/17 18:04, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>>> On 21 April 2017 at 19:47, Julien Grall wrote:
On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Gra
Hi Julien,
On 25 April 2017 at 14:43, Julien Grall wrote:
>> We will also need another type of application: one which is
>> periodically called by XEN itself, not actually servicing any domain
>> request. This is needed for a
>> coprocessor sharing framework scheduler implementati
On 24/04/17 22:41, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
We will also need another type of application: one which is
periodically called by XEN itself, not actually servicing any domain
request. This is needed for a
coprocessor sharing framework scheduler implementation.
EL0 apps
Dear Stefano,
Thank you for such a wide explanation.
I have to read it carefully and consider it. Also some internal
discussion is needed.
So I'll get back later with comments.
--
*Andrii Anisov*
___
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xen
Dear Julien,
I just read Volodymyr's emails, looked through his code and we had a
discussion.
So I'm not ready to present technical details. I guess Volodymyr is a
right person while he is up to this topic.
On 24.04.17 22:11, Julien Grall wrote:
Do you have numbers for part that take times in
Julien,
We will also need another type of application: one which is
periodically called by XEN itself, not actually servicing any domain
request. This is needed for a
coprocessor sharing framework scheduler implementation.
>>>
>>> EL0 apps can be a powerful new tool for us to u
Hello Julien,
3. Some degree of protection. Bug in EL0 handler will not bring down
whole hypervisor.
>>>
>>> If you have a single app handling all the domains using SMC, then you
>>> will
>>> bring down all thoses domains. I agree it does not take down the
>>> hypervisor,
>>> but it
Hi Andrii,
On 24/04/2017 17:56, Andrii Anisov wrote:
On 21.04.17 23:58, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
We will also need another type of application: one which is
periodically called by XEN itself, not actually servicing any domain
request. This is needed f
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> On 21.04.17 23:58, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > Hello Andrii,
> >
> > could you please use plain text (not HTML) in your emails?
> My bad. Will be checking delivery format settings carefully.
>
> > On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> > > We wil
On 21.04.17 23:58, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
Hello Andrii,
could you please use plain text (not HTML) in your emails?
My bad. Will be checking delivery format settings carefully.
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
We will also need another type of application: one which is periodicall
Stefano,
On 22.04.17 00:24, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
The key is to be simple. If it becomes complex, then we are reinventing
stubdoms.
If the workload needs hardware access, periodical scheduling and it's
only once instance for all domains, then it's probably better as a
stubdom.
If the work
Stefano,
On 22.04.17 00:24, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
The idea is basically to register an MMIO range to emulate, submit the
request to the EL0 app, which would take care of the emulation. The
interface with Xen would be mostly limited to map/unmap guest memory
(only the guest it is servicing)
On 21/04/17 19:35, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
On 21 April 2017 at 20:38, Julien Grall wrote:
3. Some degree of protection. Bug in EL0 handler will not bring down
whole hypervisor.
If you have a single app handling all the domains using SMC, then you will
bring dow
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Julien Grall wrote:
> Hi Volodymyr,
>
> On 21/04/17 18:04, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> > On 21 April 2017 at 19:47, Julien Grall wrote:
> > > On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> > > > On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Volodymy
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> Hello Andrii,
>
> could you please use plain text (not HTML) in your emails?
>
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > On 20.04.17 23:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> >
> > Hi Stefano,
> >
> > On 12 April 2017 at 22:17,
Hello Andrii,
could you please use plain text (not HTML) in your emails?
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Andrii Anisov wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On 20.04.17 23:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>
> Hi Stefano,
>
> On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrot
Hi Julien,
On 21 April 2017 at 20:38, Julien Grall wrote:
> Hi Volodymyr,
>
> On 21/04/17 18:04, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>>
>> On 21 April 2017 at 19:47, Julien Grall wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
>
>
Hi Volodymyr,
On 21/04/17 18:04, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 21 April 2017 at 19:47, Julien Grall wrote:
On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
Hello Volodymyr,
On 20/04/17 21:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, St
Julien,
On 21 April 2017 at 19:47, Julien Grall wrote:
> On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>>
>> Hi Julien,
>
>
> Hi Volodymyr,
>
>
>> On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Volodymyr,
>>>
>>> On 20/04/17 21:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 12 April
On 21/04/17 17:16, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Julien,
Hi Volodymyr,
On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
Hello Volodymyr,
On 20/04/17 21:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini
wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 20
Julien,
I don't think we should think in term of type of application
supported. We should aim to have a generic interface we can maintain
based on the needs.
I was just pointing out the use-case missed in the discussion of the
interface intended to be generic.
It introduces new requirements in
Hi Julien,
On 21 April 2017 at 18:57, Julien Grall wrote:
> Hello Volodymyr,
>
> On 20/04/17 21:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>>
>> On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabe
Hi Julien,
On 21 April 2017 at 18:49, Julien Grall wrote:
>
>
> On 21/04/17 15:42, Andrii Anisov wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>
>
> Hi,
>
>> On 20.04.17 23:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Stefano,
>>>
>>> On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini
>>> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dari
Hello Volodymyr,
On 20/04/17 21:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
We would have one app per e
On 21/04/17 15:42, Andrii Anisov wrote:
Hello,
Hi,
On 20.04.17 23:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Stefano,
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, S
Hello,
On 20.04.17 23:20, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
Hi Stefano,
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
This is the most difficu
Hi Stefano,
On 12 April 2017 at 22:17, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
>> On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>> > On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>> > >
>> > > This is the most difficult problem that we need to solve a
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > >
> > > This is the most difficult problem that we need to solve as part of
> > > this
> > > work. It is difficult to have the right answe
On Tue, 2017-04-11 at 13:32 -0700, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> >
> > This is the most difficult problem that we need to solve as part of
> > this
> > work. It is difficult to have the right answer at the beginning,
> > before
> > seeing any code. If
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> > >> Native application is an another domain type. It has own vCPU (only one
> > >> at this
> > >> moment) Native app is loaded as any other kernel, using ELF loader.
> > >> It looks like another stub-do
On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> >> Native application is an another domain type. It has own vCPU (only one at
> >> this
> >> moment) Native app is loaded as any other kernel, using ELF loader.
> >> It looks like another stub-domain such as MiniOS, but there are two big
> >> differen
Hi Stefano,
On 7 April 2017 at 00:31, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Apr 2017, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I want to discuss EL0 (native) applications for XEN. This will be relatively
>> long e-mail with requirements, proposed design and my PoC results.
>>
>> So, why we w
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017, Volodymyr Babchuk wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I want to discuss EL0 (native) applications for XEN. This will be relatively
> long e-mail with requirements, proposed design and my PoC results.
>
> So, why we want XEN native applications in the first place? I see the
> following
>
Hello all,
I want to discuss EL0 (native) applications for XEN. This will be relatively
long e-mail with requirements, proposed design and my PoC results.
So, why we want XEN native applications in the first place? I see the following
reasons:
1. Isolation. I see XEN as a sort of micro-kernel, s
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