Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Dave Howorth]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:36:42 -0400
Adam Jackson  wrote:

> (accidentally sent to just sam initially, whoops)
> 
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:22 AM Sam Varshavchik
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:30 AM Böszörményi Zoltán 
> > wrote:  
> > > 2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:  
> > > > On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:  
> > > >> Countless people on forums ...  
> > > >
> > > > Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what
> > > > countless people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am
> > > > not sure when the horrific "popular is correct" logic became
> > > > almost defacto pure truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am
> > > > not alone but I also do not have a mathematical proof handy to
> > > > refute the "popular is correct" notion.  At least not yet.  
> > >
> > > Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also
> > > popular among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's
> > > eat sh*t" I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct"
> > > logic but it certainly puts things into perspective.  
> >
> > That's somewhat besides the point. The point is that the server has
> > absolutely no control over this functionality. Anyone who actually
> > knows and understands X11 (and not some uncounted number of people
> > in some mysterious forums) will know that.
> >
> > If someone believes otherwise, they are free to download the source
> > to the Xorg server, make whatever the change they believe will
> > adjust that behavior, and prove everyone else wrong.  
> 
> Fine, I'm feeling contrarian:
> 
> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/snippets/1127
> 
> The server _absolutely_ has control over this. The value of the
> PRIMARY property, from the requesting client's perspective, is
> whatever the server says it is. There's no reason the server needs to
> tell you the truth. I'm pretty sure you could craft selinux policy to
> do this and not even need to patch your server.
> 
> The point is: opinions about this are not universal. PRIMARY's
> behaviour is so thoroughly baked into both client software and a
> non-trivial subset of user expectation that anyone saying "obviously
> it should be turned off" is projecting. Likewise anyone who cut their
> teeth on a sun3 and thinks UI design was perfected with the Athena
> widget set is intentionally ignoring the absolutely massive
> popularization of access to computing since 1992.
> 
> Nobody needs a manifesto about this. If you want to improve the world
> here the quantity of code needed is really quite small. I would like
> to think the xorg developers are friendly and approachable enough that
> people would feel comfortable asking how to make these kinds of
> changes and where to start hacking. We've done tremendous amounts of
> work over the last 15-odd years to eliminate the irrelevant code and
> make what's left pleasant to work on. Please don't make me feel like
> that's been wasted effort.

That doesn't meet the requirements.

Obviously it doesn't allow for the option to be turned on or off,
although I expect it can be extended easily to allow that.

More seriously, it also prevents any other method of using the
selection from working, such as choosing cut and paste from a menu. So
it rather throws the baby out with the bathwater.

Which I would assert is an excellent demonstration of the point. It's
not the server which provides this functionality. Remember X's motto -
mechanism not policy.


> - ajax
> 
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Robert Heller]

At Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:16:14 -0400 Sam Varshavchik  
wrote:

> 
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adam Jackson  wrote:
> >
> > (accidentally sent to just sam initially, whoops)
> 
> Yes, and just had a two minute look at it -- this just seems to
> disable pasting of the PRIMARY selection, completely.
> 
> I suppose that's one way to disable the middle mouse click. As well as
> the "Paste" option from most applications' "Edit" menu, and/or the
> equivalent keyboard combination.
> 
> I suppose that this is one way to fix the problem.


It should be noted that is an answer in search of a (mostly non-existant) 
problem.  Most of us long-term UNIX and Linux users don't "accidentally" click 
the middle button.  This is going to be mostly an issue for people moving to 
Linux from MS-Windows (or possibly MacOS) who have managed to develope a "bad 
habit" with respect to randomly clicking the middle button.  Clicking the 
middle button under MS-Windows (and MacOS), is a noop and so a "nervous 
twitch" the clicks it is harmless and will go unnoticed.  And yes this fix 
pretty much disables even context and Edit menu paste functions as well, which 
is not actually what the OP wanted.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:22 AM Sam Varshavchik
> >  wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:30 AM Böszörményi Zoltán 
> > >  wrote:
> > > > 2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:
> > > > > On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> > > > >> Countless people on forums ...
> > > > >
> > > > > Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
> > > > > people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
> > > > > the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
> > > > > truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
> > > > > have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
> > > > > notion.  At least not yet.
> > > >
> > > > Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also popular
> > > > among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's eat sh*t"
> > > > I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct" logic but it
> > > > certainly puts things into perspective.
> > >
> > > That's somewhat besides the point. The point is that the server has
> > > absolutely no control over this functionality. Anyone who actually
> > > knows and understands X11 (and not some uncounted number of people in
> > > some mysterious forums) will know that.
> > >
> > > If someone believes otherwise, they are free to download the source to
> > > the Xorg server, make whatever the change they believe will adjust
> > > that behavior, and prove everyone else wrong.
> >
> > Fine, I'm feeling contrarian:
> >
> > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/snippets/1127
> >
> > The server _absolutely_ has control over this. The value of the
> > PRIMARY property, from the requesting client's perspective, is
> > whatever the server says it is. There's no reason the server needs to
> > tell you the truth. I'm pretty sure you could craft selinux policy to
> > do this and not even need to patch your server.
> >
> > The point is: opinions about this are not universal. PRIMARY's
> > behaviour is so thoroughly baked into both client software and a
> > non-trivial subset of user expectation that anyone saying "obviously
> > it should be turned off" is projecting. Likewise anyone who cut their
> > teeth on a sun3 and thinks UI design was perfected with the Athena
> > widget set is intentionally ignoring the absolutely massive
> > popularization of access to computing since 1992.
> >
> > Nobody needs a manifesto about this. If you want to improve the world
> > here the quantity of code needed is really quite small. I would like
> > to think the xorg developers are friendly and approachable enough that
> > people would feel comfortable asking how to make these kinds of
> > changes and where to start hacking. We've done tremendous amounts of
> > work over the last 15-odd years to eliminate the irrelevant code and
> > make what's left pleasant to work on. Please don't make me feel like
> > that's been wasted effort.
> >
> > - ajax
> >
> > ___
> > xorg@lists.x.org: X.Org support
> > Archives: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg
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> 

-- 
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Sam Varshavchik]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adam Jackson  wrote:
>
> (accidentally sent to just sam initially, whoops)

Yes, and just had a two minute look at it -- this just seems to
disable pasting of the PRIMARY selection, completely.

I suppose that's one way to disable the middle mouse click. As well as
the "Paste" option from most applications' "Edit" menu, and/or the
equivalent keyboard combination.

I suppose that this is one way to fix the problem.




>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:22 AM Sam Varshavchik
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:30 AM Böszörményi Zoltán  wrote:
> > > 2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:
> > > > On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> > > >> Countless people on forums ...
> > > >
> > > > Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
> > > > people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
> > > > the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
> > > > truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
> > > > have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
> > > > notion.  At least not yet.
> > >
> > > Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also popular
> > > among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's eat sh*t"
> > > I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct" logic but it
> > > certainly puts things into perspective.
> >
> > That's somewhat besides the point. The point is that the server has
> > absolutely no control over this functionality. Anyone who actually
> > knows and understands X11 (and not some uncounted number of people in
> > some mysterious forums) will know that.
> >
> > If someone believes otherwise, they are free to download the source to
> > the Xorg server, make whatever the change they believe will adjust
> > that behavior, and prove everyone else wrong.
>
> Fine, I'm feeling contrarian:
>
> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/snippets/1127
>
> The server _absolutely_ has control over this. The value of the
> PRIMARY property, from the requesting client's perspective, is
> whatever the server says it is. There's no reason the server needs to
> tell you the truth. I'm pretty sure you could craft selinux policy to
> do this and not even need to patch your server.
>
> The point is: opinions about this are not universal. PRIMARY's
> behaviour is so thoroughly baked into both client software and a
> non-trivial subset of user expectation that anyone saying "obviously
> it should be turned off" is projecting. Likewise anyone who cut their
> teeth on a sun3 and thinks UI design was perfected with the Athena
> widget set is intentionally ignoring the absolutely massive
> popularization of access to computing since 1992.
>
> Nobody needs a manifesto about this. If you want to improve the world
> here the quantity of code needed is really quite small. I would like
> to think the xorg developers are friendly and approachable enough that
> people would feel comfortable asking how to make these kinds of
> changes and where to start hacking. We've done tremendous amounts of
> work over the last 15-odd years to eliminate the irrelevant code and
> make what's left pleasant to work on. Please don't make me feel like
> that's been wasted effort.
>
> - ajax
>
> ___
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Adam Jackson]

(accidentally sent to just sam initially, whoops)

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 7:22 AM Sam Varshavchik
 wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:30 AM Böszörményi Zoltán  wrote:
> > 2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:
> > > On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> > >> Countless people on forums ...
> > >
> > > Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
> > > people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
> > > the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
> > > truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
> > > have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
> > > notion.  At least not yet.
> >
> > Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also popular
> > among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's eat sh*t"
> > I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct" logic but it
> > certainly puts things into perspective.
>
> That's somewhat besides the point. The point is that the server has
> absolutely no control over this functionality. Anyone who actually
> knows and understands X11 (and not some uncounted number of people in
> some mysterious forums) will know that.
>
> If someone believes otherwise, they are free to download the source to
> the Xorg server, make whatever the change they believe will adjust
> that behavior, and prove everyone else wrong.

Fine, I'm feeling contrarian:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/snippets/1127

The server _absolutely_ has control over this. The value of the
PRIMARY property, from the requesting client's perspective, is
whatever the server says it is. There's no reason the server needs to
tell you the truth. I'm pretty sure you could craft selinux policy to
do this and not even need to patch your server.

The point is: opinions about this are not universal. PRIMARY's
behaviour is so thoroughly baked into both client software and a
non-trivial subset of user expectation that anyone saying "obviously
it should be turned off" is projecting. Likewise anyone who cut their
teeth on a sun3 and thinks UI design was perfected with the Athena
widget set is intentionally ignoring the absolutely massive
popularization of access to computing since 1992.

Nobody needs a manifesto about this. If you want to improve the world
here the quantity of code needed is really quite small. I would like
to think the xorg developers are friendly and approachable enough that
people would feel comfortable asking how to make these kinds of
changes and where to start hacking. We've done tremendous amounts of
work over the last 15-odd years to eliminate the irrelevant code and
make what's left pleasant to work on. Please don't make me feel like
that's been wasted effort.

- ajax

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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Böszörményi Zoltán]

2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:

On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:

Countless people on forums ...


Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
notion.  At least not yet.


Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also popular
among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's eat sh*t"
I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct" logic but it
certainly puts things into perspective.

Best regards,
Zoltán Böszörményi
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Sam Varshavchik]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 4:30 AM Böszörményi Zoltán  wrote:
>
> 2020. 07. 30. 21:20 keltezéssel, Dennis Clarke írta:
> > On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> >> Countless people on forums ...
> >
> > Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
> > people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
> > the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
> > truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
> > have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
> > notion.  At least not yet.
>
> Let me suggest an analogue / convergent notion, which is also popular
> among engineers: "ten billion flies can't be wrong. let's eat sh*t"
> I am not sure this refutes the "popular is correct" logic but it
> certainly puts things into perspective.

That's somewhat besides the point. The point is that the server has
absolutely no control over this functionality. Anyone who actually
knows and understands X11 (and not some uncounted number of people in
some mysterious forums) will know that.

If someone believes otherwise, they are free to download the source to
the Xorg server, make whatever the change they believe will adjust
that behavior, and prove everyone else wrong.
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:39:04 -0400 Elie Goldman Smith
 said:

> Countless people on forums say that middle-mouse pasting is an X11 feature.
> 
> This document seems to confirm that it's an X11 feature:
> https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's an ecosystem convention. It's not a feature of xorg or the xorg core
libraries (xlib) specifically (though xt/xaw does implement it but almost no one
uses that anymore so it's moot). These tools are used to implement
middle-mouse past by toolkits. They all then repeat the pattern making it an
ecosystem-wide convention. Not just toolkits but entire apps that don't use
toolkits at all implement it too.

I'd advise that just because a lot of people say something, does not make it
true. When you talk to developers here who know and write the actual code that
is involved in this and they tell you otherwise, you'd be wise to take that as
actual fact. You are welcome to dig into all of the code yourself and prove
them wrong... I'm sure they are all cracking open a beer and waiting with baited
breath to see the results. :)

> On Friday, July 24, 2020, Alan Coopersmith 
> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> >
> >> Solution:
> >> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> >> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.
> >>
> >> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
> >>
> >
> > It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
> > a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
> > applications, with no centralized control.
> >
> > All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
> > everything after that happens client side.
> >
> > --
> > -Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
> >  Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
> >


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com

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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Dennis Clarke]

On 7/30/20 6:39 PM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> Countless people on forums ...

Also they are not the source code nor would I rely on what countless
people say on just about any matter whatsoever.  I am not sure when
the horrific "popular is correct" logic became almost defacto pure
truth but I reject it.  I am certain I am not alone but I also do not
have a mathematical proof handy to refute the "popular is correct"
notion.  At least not yet.

-- 
Dennis Clarke
RISC-V/SPARC/PPC/ARM/CISC
UNIX and Linux spoken
GreyBeard and suspenders optional
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Sam Varshavchik]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:06 PM Elie Goldman Smith
 wrote:

> Countless people on forums say that middle-mouse pasting is an X11 feature.

"X11" is not the same thing as an "X server".

> This document seems to confirm that it's an X11 feature:
> https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html

Yes, it does. This document confirms that middle mouse button click
events are X11 features.

Pay attention to this part:

# So how do I implement this?
#
# middle button paste, if implemented  | Retrieve and insert PRIMARY selection.

Pay attention to the "if implemented" part. If not implemented, this
does nothing.

An X client chooses to implement whatever events it wants. If it
chooses to implement the middle button as a paste button, it then
proceeds to retrieve and insert the PRIMARY selection from the server.
If it chooses not to do so, nothing happens. The X server has
absolutely nothing to do, whatsoever. The X server's only
responsibility is to forward mouse button events to the client, to do
whatever it wants with it. If the client chooses to implement the
middle button as a paste operation,  that's the client's choice. Not
the server's.

Feel free to read

https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xproto/x11protocol.html

at your leisure, for all the details.


>
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>
> On Friday, July 24, 2020, Alan Coopersmith  
> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> Solution:
>>> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be 
>>> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
>>
>>
>> It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
>> a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
>> applications, with no centralized control.
>>
>> All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
>> everything after that happens client side.
>>
>> --
>> -Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
>>  Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
>
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Robert Heller]

At Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:39:04 -0400 Elie Goldman Smith 
 wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Countless people on forums say that middle-mouse pasting is an X11 feature.
> 
> This document seems to confirm that it's an X11 feature:
> https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The original mice on Sun, DEC, and SGI workstations of the late 1970s through
the mid/late 1980s all had 3 buttons. A common *usage* by *UNIX* users was to
use the middle button for pasting (text). This was (and still is) a standard
binding for xterms (the original XAW flavored xterm). In those days, most
applications did not bother with a "right button" context menu (that would
feature "Cut, Copy, Paste" items on it and many applications might not have a
menu bar (xterms don't and also don't have a "right button" context menu
wither). The text editor of choice of the *UNIX* users of that time was either
vi or Emacs, neither of which had a GUI (aka point-and-click) version (at the
time). Word processing barely existed at all and not at all on *UNIX*
workstations.

So, copy and paste was pretty much only a matter of highlighting with the left
button and pasting with the middle button. X11 itself did not (and xorg still
does not) define this behaviour. (And yes, *I* still use old school xterms --
I find all of the "modern" -term programs obnoxious.) All X11/xorg
does is pass pointer events with possible button state modifiers. The
*applications* implement what happens (or does not happen) with those events.
It became a convention to implement the middle button as the paste button.
Many "modern" applications implement context menus and/or have menu bars with
Edit menus, either/both include cut, copy, and paste menu items. Old school
xterms *still* don't implement either a context menu (right button) or have a
menu bar (and thus don't have an edit menu). People who learned computers
under MacOS or MS-Windows never learned this usage, since neither Macs or
"PCs" (MS-Windows) ever had plain middle buttons, unless some *UNIX* (Linux)
hacker connected one. Native MacOS (Classic or X) and MS-Windows applications
never defined any sort of behaviour for middle buttons, since those machines
never had middle buttons and thus people starting to use Linux are "suddenly"
seeing this behaviour which appears novel to them and don't understand it.
This is *especially* true when they mostly use "modern" applications that
mimic MacOS or MS-Windows usage (and thus have context menus and/or edit
menus), and *sometimes* also implement middle button paste, which in that
context appears redundant and/or extrainious. The thing is the context menus
and/or edit menus are the (so-called) "user friendly" add-ons. Get over it. If
it *really* bothers you, go back to your toy machines running their toy
operating systems.  And leave us UNIX/Linux users' middle buttons alone.


> 
> 
> On Friday, July 24, 2020, Alan Coopersmith 
> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
> >
> >> Solution:
> >> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> >> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.
> >>
> >> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
> >>
> >
> > It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
> > a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
> > applications, with no centralized control.
> >
> > All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
> > everything after that happens client side.
> >
> > --
> > -Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
> >  Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
> >
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Elie Goldman Smith]

Countless people on forums say that middle-mouse pasting is an X11 feature.

This document seems to confirm that it's an X11 feature:
https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html


Please correct me if I'm wrong.


On Friday, July 24, 2020, Alan Coopersmith 
wrote:

> On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:
>
>> Solution:
>> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
>> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.
>>
>> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
>>
>
> It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
> a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
> applications, with no centralized control.
>
> All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
> everything after that happens client side.
>
> --
> -Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
>  Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
>
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Alan Coopersmith]

X11 is a much larger system than just the X server.   As that web page notes,
this is from the "X11R6 Inter-Client Communication Conventions Manual", which
documents the conventions for X clients to communicate with each other, not
the X server itself.

-Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc

On 7/30/20 11:39 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:

Countless people on forums say that middle-mouse pasting is an X11 feature.

This document seems to confirm that it's an X11 feature:
https://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html


Please correct me if I'm wrong.


On Friday, July 24, 2020, Alan Coopersmith > wrote:


On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:

Solution:
Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.

Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.


It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
applications, with no centralized control.

All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
everything after that happens client side.

-- 
         -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com


          Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc





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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Peter Hutterer]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 01:17:16AM +1000, Adam Nielsen wrote:
> > Say for example a user is writing a document, scrolling through it,
> > and accidentally pastes text without knowing it.
> > The pasted text might contain sensitive/private information.
> > The user submits the document somewhere, and people read it.
> > It's more likely than you think.
> 
> For what it's worth, I have been scrolling through documents for decades
> and never once pasted anything by accident with the middle click.  It
> sounds like your mouse is faulty as every mouse I have ever used has
> required considerable effort to actuate the middle mouse button, to the
> point that I have once disassembled my mouse and replaced the
> microswitch in it for the mouse wheel to make it easier to press.

It's not *that* uncommon to have a mouse that middle-clicks while scrolling.
Don't ask me for model numbers but I've seen the odd bug report over the
years about it and it's not always a worn-out switch.

> > This isn't simply a matter of mouse scroll wheels that click too
> > easily. Laptop touchpads are known to paste accidentally too.
> 
> I've also used a touchpad for a long time and never managed to get it
> to paste anything.  I didn't even know I could get it to emit a
> middle-click!

Three-finger tap and (depending on configuration) a click with three fingers
on the touchpad or a click in the middle button area on the bottom or a
click with left and right button (or in button areas) simultaneously.
The old synaptics driver defaulted to 2-finger tap being the middle click.

Cheers,
   Peter
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Dave Howorth]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 04:19:16 -0400
Elie Goldman Smith  wrote:

> X.Org, to whom it may concern:
> 
> I'm writing to suggest that Xorg's middle-mouse pasting should be an
> optional feature, not an unchangeable behavior.
> 
> The rationale is simple:
> Middle-mouse pasting is only beneficial to users who know that it
> exists. For everyone else, it's a liability.
> 
> Say for example a user is writing a document, scrolling through it,
> and accidentally pastes text without knowing it.
> The pasted text might contain sensitive/private information.
> The user submits the document somewhere, and people read it.
> It's more likely than you think.
> 
> This isn't simply a matter of mouse scroll wheels that click too
> easily. Laptop touchpads are known to paste accidentally too. Even
> 2-button emulation is a liability, if the user doesn't remember to
> deliberately avoid pressing both buttons at once.
> 
> 
> Solution:
> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.

If implemented, this must be enabled by default since that has been the
behaviour for decades. Given that, one must know of th existence of the
feature in order to disable it. One is therefore not in the population,
however large or small, of those who do not know it exists. So the
rationale for this change is flawed.

> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> - Elie
> 
> P.S.
> Current workarounds involve either:
> - completely disabling the middle mouse button
> - blocking the feature in specific apps only
> - scripts that continuously delete Xorg's clipboard every half-second

- learning not to press mouse buttons when you don't mean to?

> We can do better.
> 
> P.P.S.
> I would bet that desktop linux distros would disable middle-mouse
> pasting by default, if they could.

I would be strongly opposed to this suggestion for the reasons given
above.

> Many users are new to Linux, and are used to absent-mindedly clicking
> the scroll wheel while scrolling.
> Hardcore coders can always re-enable the feature via 'xset'.

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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 04:19:16 -0400 Elie Goldman Smith
 said:

this has nothing to do with xorg - each toolkit and/or client app implements
this. xorg/xlibs just provide the mechanisms. they all do this because in x it
*IS* expected behaviour and has been expected to work this way for 30 years or
so...

your rationale applies equally to ctrl+v ... it can also be accidentally
pressed. imagine a heavy terminal user hits ctrl+c to "Stop that" and focus is
on the wrong window... your rationale then would apply to this situation too, so
this should also be disabled. your logic leads to the following conlusion:

all pastes need to be disabled by default probably with a "you want to paste
'xyz' ... are you sure [yes] [no]" approval dialogs... :) you are definitely
welcome to suggest this to toolkit and app makers. :)

> X.Org, to whom it may concern:
> 
> I'm writing to suggest that Xorg's middle-mouse pasting should be an
> optional feature, not an unchangeable behavior.
> 
> The rationale is simple:
> Middle-mouse pasting is only beneficial to users who know that it exists.
> For everyone else, it's a liability.
> 
> Say for example a user is writing a document, scrolling through it,
> and accidentally pastes text without knowing it.
> The pasted text might contain sensitive/private information.
> The user submits the document somewhere, and people read it.
> It's more likely than you think.
> 
> This isn't simply a matter of mouse scroll wheels that click too
> easily. Laptop touchpads are known to paste accidentally too. Even
> 2-button emulation is a liability, if the user doesn't remember to
> deliberately avoid pressing both buttons at once.
> 
> 
> Solution:
> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.
> 
> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> - Elie
> 
> 
> P.S.
> Current workarounds involve either:
> - completely disabling the middle mouse button
> - blocking the feature in specific apps only
> - scripts that continuously delete Xorg's clipboard every half-second
> 
> We can do better.
> 
> P.P.S.
> I would bet that desktop linux distros would disable middle-mouse
> pasting by default, if they could.
> Many users are new to Linux, and are used to absent-mindedly clicking
> the scroll wheel while scrolling.
> Hardcore coders can always re-enable the feature via 'xset'.


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com

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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Adam Nielsen]

> I'm writing to suggest that Xorg's middle-mouse pasting should be an
> optional feature, not an unchangeable behavior.

Where are you seeing this Xorg behaviour?  If I run "xev" and click the
middle mouse button, I only see a "button 2 pressed" event, I don't see
any events relating to the clipboard.

I don't think Xorg sends any clipboard events by default?  Please
correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like Xorg isn't the source of this
issue.

> Say for example a user is writing a document, scrolling through it,
> and accidentally pastes text without knowing it.
> The pasted text might contain sensitive/private information.
> The user submits the document somewhere, and people read it.
> It's more likely than you think.

For what it's worth, I have been scrolling through documents for decades
and never once pasted anything by accident with the middle click.  It
sounds like your mouse is faulty as every mouse I have ever used has
required considerable effort to actuate the middle mouse button, to the
point that I have once disassembled my mouse and replaced the
microswitch in it for the mouse wheel to make it easier to press.

> This isn't simply a matter of mouse scroll wheels that click too
> easily. Laptop touchpads are known to paste accidentally too.

I've also used a touchpad for a long time and never managed to get it
to paste anything.  I didn't even know I could get it to emit a
middle-click!

I'm not saying this is a non-issue, just that I think you are
overestimating the number of people affected by it.

> Solution:
> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.

As far as I know, Xorg doesn't ascribe any special behaviour to the
middle mouse button, and leaves it up to applications themselves.
Middle-click pasting has become a defacto standard, with every
application implementing this independently.

This means that I don't think there is a way you can completely disable
middle-click pasting, other than configuring every program that uses it
to stop doing it, using whatever way they decided to do it when they
implemented their custom middle-button event handler.  For toolkits like
GTK you can probably toggle it in one place and affect a whole bunch of
programs, but it looks like it will always require individual programs
to be configured manually.

> I would bet that desktop linux distros would disable middle-mouse
> pasting by default, if they could.

They already can for many applications but they don't because so many
people like this feature.  Firefox disabled opening URLs on a
middle-click by default for example, but it's one of the first options
I go in and turn back on when using a fresh install because it's so
convenient.

> Many users are new to Linux, and are used to absent-mindedly clicking
> the scroll wheel while scrolling.
> Hardcore coders can always re-enable the feature via 'xset'.

They will soon learn to stop this behaviour :)  Linux is and always has
been aimed at very technical people, so if you start dumbing it down for
the masses you will get a lot of criticism.  People switch to Linux
precisely because it doesn't treat you like a simpleton, and sure most
people will tell you the transition was hard and there was a huge
amount to learn, but now they've gotten used to it they appreciate why
things are the way they are.

It might be tough to kick your idle middle-clicking habit, but if you
can do it, you'll eventually wonder how you ever managed without
middle-click pasting!

Cheers,
Adam.
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 7/23/20 1:19 AM, Elie Goldman Smith wrote:

Solution:
Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be enabled/disabled 
by 'xset' on the command line.

Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.


It would not be, because it is not a X server behavior.  It is simply
a convention implemented in dozens of toolkits and thousands of
applications, with no centralized control.

All the X server does is tell the client that button 2 was pressed, and
everything after that happens client side.

--
-Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
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Re: Suggestion for Xorg / about middle-mouse click pasting

[Dave Howorth]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 04:19:16 -0400
Elie Goldman Smith  wrote:

> X.Org, to whom it may concern:
> 
> I'm writing to suggest that Xorg's middle-mouse pasting should be an
> optional feature, not an unchangeable behavior.
> 
> The rationale is simple:
> Middle-mouse pasting is only beneficial to users who know that it
> exists. For everyone else, it's a liability.
> 
> Say for example a user is writing a document, scrolling through it,
> and accidentally pastes text without knowing it.
> The pasted text might contain sensitive/private information.
> The user submits the document somewhere, and people read it.
> It's more likely than you think.
> 
> This isn't simply a matter of mouse scroll wheels that click too
> easily. Laptop touchpads are known to paste accidentally too. Even
> 2-button emulation is a liability, if the user doesn't remember to
> deliberately avoid pressing both buttons at once.
> 
> 
> Solution:
> Middle-mouse pasting would be great as a setting that can be
> enabled/disabled by 'xset' on the command line.

If implemented, this must be enabled by default since that has been the
behaviour for decades. Given that, one must know of th existence of the
feature in order to disable it. One is therefore not in the population,
however large or small, of those who do not know it exists. So the
rationale for this change is flawed.

> Please let me know if this would be simple to implement.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> - Elie
> 
> 
> P.S.
> Current workarounds involve either:
> - completely disabling the middle mouse button
> - blocking the feature in specific apps only
> - scripts that continuously delete Xorg's clipboard every half-second

- learning not to press mouse buttons when you don't mean to?

> We can do better.
> 
> P.P.S.
> I would bet that desktop linux distros would disable middle-mouse
> pasting by default, if they could.

I would be strongly opposed to this suggestion for the reasons given
above.

> Many users are new to Linux, and are used to absent-mindedly clicking
> the scroll wheel while scrolling.
> Hardcore coders can always re-enable the feature via 'xset'.

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