Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

Of course I meant 'zpool *' not 'zfs *' below.

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Frank Cusack  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>
>>  On 12/19/2011 8:51 PM, Frank Cusack wrote:
>>
>> If you don't detach the smaller drive, the pool size won't increase.
>> Even if the remaining smaller drive fails, that doesn't mean you have to
>> detach it.  So yes, the pool size might increase, but it won't be
>> "unexpectedly".  It will be because you detached all smaller drives.  Also,
>> even if a smaller drive is failed, it can still be attached.
>>
>> If you don't have a controller slot to connect the replacement drive
>> through, then you have to remove the smaller drive, physically.
>>
>
> Physically, yes.  By detach, I meant 'zfs detach', a logical operation.
>
>   You can, then attach the replacement drive, but will "replace" work
>> then, or must you remove and then add it because it is "the same disk"?
>>
>
> I was thinking that you leave the failed drive [logically] attached.  So,
> you don't 'zfs replace', you just 'zfs attach' your new drive.  Yes, this
> leaves the mirror in faulted condition.  You'd correct that later when you
> get a replacement smaller drive.
>
> But, as Fajar noted, just make sure autoexpand is off and you can still do
> a 'zfs replace' operation if you like (perhaps so your monitoring shuts up)
> and the pool size will not unexpectedly grow.
>
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Gregg Wonderly  wrote:

>  On 12/19/2011 8:51 PM, Frank Cusack wrote:
>
> If you don't detach the smaller drive, the pool size won't increase.  Even
> if the remaining smaller drive fails, that doesn't mean you have to detach
> it.  So yes, the pool size might increase, but it won't be "unexpectedly".
> It will be because you detached all smaller drives.  Also, even if a
> smaller drive is failed, it can still be attached.
>
> If you don't have a controller slot to connect the replacement drive
> through, then you have to remove the smaller drive, physically.
>

Physically, yes.  By detach, I meant 'zfs detach', a logical operation.

  You can, then attach the replacement drive, but will "replace" work then,
> or must you remove and then add it because it is "the same disk"?
>

I was thinking that you leave the failed drive [logically] attached.  So,
you don't 'zfs replace', you just 'zfs attach' your new drive.  Yes, this
leaves the mirror in faulted condition.  You'd correct that later when you
get a replacement smaller drive.

But, as Fajar noted, just make sure autoexpand is off and you can still do
a 'zfs replace' operation if you like (perhaps so your monitoring shuts up)
and the pool size will not unexpectedly grow.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Gregg Wonderly]

On 12/19/2011 8:51 PM, Frank Cusack wrote:
If you don't detach the smaller drive, the pool size won't increase.  Even if 
the remaining smaller drive fails, that doesn't mean you have to detach it.  
So yes, the pool size might increase, but it won't be "unexpectedly".  It will 
be because you detached all smaller drives.  Also, even if a smaller drive is 
failed, it can still be attached.
If you don't have a controller slot to connect the replacement drive through, 
then you have to remove the smaller drive, physically.  You can, then attach the 
replacement drive, but will "replace" work then, or must you remove and then add 
it because it is "the same disk"?

It doesn't make sense for attach to do anything with partition tables, IMHO.
I understand that in some cases, it might be more problematic for attach to 
"assume" some things about partitioning.  I don't know that I have "the answer", 
but I know, from experience, that there is nothing I hate more than anything, 
then having to "figure out" how to partition disks on Solaris.  It's just too 
painful to have so many steps with conditions of use.
I *always* order the spare when I order the original drives, to have it on 
hand, even for my home system.  Drive sizes change more frequently than they 
fail, for me.  Sure, when I use the spare I may not be able to order a new 
spare of the same size, but at least at that time I have time to prepare and 
am not scrambling.
Most of the time, I have spares ready too.  I have returned 4 of one 
manufactures, and 2 of another, with 2 more disks showing signs of "failure".  
These are all SATA disks on my home server.  At this point, with drive prices so 
high, it's not "simple" to pick up a couple of more spares to have on hand.   
For my Root pool, I had only no remaining 250GB disks that I've been using for 
root.So, I put in one of my 1.5TB spares for the moment, until I decide 
whether or not to order a new small drive.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Gregg Wonderly > wrote:


That's why I'm asking.  I think it should always mirror the partition
table and allocate exactly the same amount of space so that the pool
doesn't suddenly change sizes unexpectedly and require a disk size that I
don't have at hand, to put the mirror back up.



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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Fajar A. Nugraha]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Frank Cusack  wrote:
> If you don't detach the smaller drive, the pool size won't increase.  Even
> if the remaining smaller drive fails, that doesn't mean you have to detach
> it.  So yes, the pool size might increase, but it won't be "unexpectedly".
> It will be because you detached all smaller drives.  Also, even if a smaller
> drive is failed, it can still be attached.

Isn't autoexpand=off by default, so it won't use the larger size anyway?

-- 
Fajar
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

If you don't detach the smaller drive, the pool size won't increase.  Even
if the remaining smaller drive fails, that doesn't mean you have to detach
it.  So yes, the pool size might increase, but it won't be "unexpectedly".
It will be because you detached all smaller drives.  Also, even if a
smaller drive is failed, it can still be attached.

It doesn't make sense for attach to do anything with partition tables, IMHO.

I *always* order the spare when I order the original drives, to have it on
hand, even for my home system.  Drive sizes change more frequently than
they fail, for me.  Sure, when I use the spare I may not be able to order a
new spare of the same size, but at least at that time I have time to
prepare and am not scrambling.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Gregg Wonderly  wrote:

>  That's why I'm asking.  I think it should always mirror the partition
> table and allocate exactly the same amount of space so that the pool
> doesn't suddenly change sizes unexpectedly and require a disk size that I
> don't have at hand, to put the mirror back up.
>
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Gregg Wonderly]

That's why I'm asking.  I think it should always mirror the partition table and 
allocate exactly the same amount of space so that the pool doesn't suddenly 
change sizes unexpectedly and require a disk size that I don't have at hand, to 
put the mirror back up.


Gregg

On 12/18/2011 4:08 PM, Nathan Kroenert wrote:
Do note, that though Frank is correct, you have to be a little careful around 
what might happen should you drop your original disk, and only the large 
mirror half is left... ;)


On 12/16/11 07:09 PM, Frank Cusack wrote:
You can just do fdisk to create a single large partition.  The attached 
mirror doesn't have to be the same size as the first component.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Gregg Wonderly > wrote:


Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the surfaces,
including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today trying to get a
new mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB disk that failed.  I only
had a 1.5TB handy as a replacement.  prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work
in this case and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is
just silly to fight with anyway.

Gregg

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Tim Cook mailto:t...@cook.ms>>
wrote:


Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen" mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:


On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is
there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer.
Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Peter Jeremy]

On 2011-Dec-20 00:29:50 +1100, Jim Klimov  wrote:
>2011-12-19 16:58, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:18:05AM +, Darren J Moffat wrote:
>>> For those of us not familiar with how FreeBSD is installed and boots can
>>> you explain how boot works (ie do you use GRUB at all and if so which
>>> version and where the early boot ZFS code is).
>>
>> We don't use GRUB, no. We use three stages for booting. Stage 0 is
>> bascially 512 byte of very simple MBR boot loader installed at the
>> begining of the disk that is used to launch stage 1 boot loader. Stage 1
>> is where we interpret all ZFS (or UFS) structure and read real files.
...
>Hmm... and is the freebsd-boot partition redundant somehow?

In the GPT case, each boot device would have a copy of both the boot0
MBR and a freebsd-boot partition containing gptzfsboot.  Both zfsboot
(used with traditional MBR/fdisk partitioning) and gptzfsboot
incorporate standard ZFS code and so should be able to boot off any
supported zpool type (but note that there's a bug in the handling of
gang blocks that was only fixed very recently).

>Is it mirrored or can be striped over several disks?

Effectively the boot code is mirrored on each bootdisk.  FreeBSD does
not have the same partitioned vs whole disk issues as Solaris so there
is no downside to using partitioned disks with ZFS on FreeBSD.

>I was educated that the core problem lies in the system's
>required ability to boot off any single device (including
>volumes of several disks singularly presented by HWRAIDs).
>This "BIOS boot device" should hold everything that is
>required and sufficient to go on booting the OS and using
>disk sets of some more sophisticated redundancy.

Normally, firmware boot code (BIOS, EFI, OFW etc) has no RAID ability
and needs to load bootstrap code off a single (physical or HW RAID)
boot device.  The exception is the primitive software RAID solutions
found in consumer PC hardware - which are best ignored.

Effectively, all the code needed prior to the point where a software
RAID device can be built must be replicated in full across all boot
devices.  For RAID-1, everything is already replicated so it's
sufficient to just treat one mirror as the boot device and let the
kernel build the RAID device.  For anything more complex, one of the
bootstrap stages has to build enough of the RAID device to allow the
kernel (etc) to be read out of the RAID device.

>I gather that in FreeBSD's case this "self-sufficient"
>bootloader is small and incurs a small storage overhead,
>even if cloned to a dozen disks in your array?

gptzfsboot is currently ~34KB (20KB larger than the equivalent UFS
bootstrap).  GPT has a 34-sector overhead and the freebsd-boot
partition is typically 128 sectors to allow for future growth (though
I've shrunk it at home to 94 sectors so the following partition is on
a 64KB boundary to better suit future 4KB disks).  My mirrored ZFS
system at work is partitioned as:
$ gpart show  -p
=>  34  78124933ad0  GPT  (37G)
34   128  ad0p1  freebsd-boot  (64k)
   162   5242880  ad0p2  freebsd-swap  (2.5G)
   5243042  72881925  ad0p3  freebsd-zfs  (34G)

=>  34  78124933ad1  GPT  (37G)
34   128  ad1p1  freebsd-boot  (64k)
   162   5242880  ad1p2  freebsd-swap  (2.5G)
   5243042  72881925  ad1p3  freebsd-zfs  (34G)
(The first 2 columns are absolute offset and size in sectors)
My root pool is a mirror of ad0p3 and ad1p3.

>In this case Solaris's problem with only-mirrored ZFS
>on root pools is that the "self-sufficient" quantum
>of required data is much larger; but otherwise the
>situation is the same?

If you have enough data and disk space, the overheads in combining a
mirrored root with RAIDZ data aren't that great.  At home, I have 6
1TB disks and I've carved out 8GB from the front of each (3GB for swap
and 5GB for root) and the remainder in a RAIDZ2 pool - that's less
than 1% overhead.  5GB is big enough to hold the complete source tree
and compile it, as well as the base OS.  I have a 3-way mirrored root
across half the disks and use the other "root" partitions as
"temporary" roots when upgrading.

-- 
Peter Jeremy


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Hi Andrew,

Current releases that apply the bootblocks automatically during
a zpool attach operation are Oracle Solaris 10 8/11 and Oracle
Solaris 11.

Thanks,

Cindy



On 12/19/11 10:03, Daugherity, Andrew W wrote:

Does "current" include sol10u10 as well as sol11? If so, when did that
go in? Was it in sol10u9?


Thanks,

Andrew


*From: *Cindy Swearingen mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>>
*Subject: **Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?*
*Date: *December 16, 2011 10:38:21 AM CST
*To: *Tim Cook mailto:t...@cook.ms>>
*Cc: *mailto:zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org>>


Hi Tim,

No, in current Solaris releases the boot blocks are installed
automatically with a zpool attach operation on a root pool.

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 17:13, Tim Cook wrote:

Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen"
mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>
<mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy




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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Daugherity, Andrew W]

Does "current" include sol10u10 as well as sol11?  If so, when did that go in?  
Was it in sol10u9?


Thanks,

Andrew

From: Cindy Swearingen 
mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>>
Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?
Date: December 16, 2011 10:38:21 AM CST
To: Tim Cook mailto:t...@cook.ms>>
Cc: mailto:zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org>>


Hi Tim,

No, in current Solaris releases the boot blocks are installed
automatically with a zpool attach operation on a root pool.

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 17:13, Tim Cook wrote:
Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen" 
mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>
<mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

   Hi Anon,

   The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
   and a slice 0.

   The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
   is like this, for example:

   # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

   Thanks,

   Cindy

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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Hi Pawel,

In addition to the current SMI label requirement for booting,
I believe another limitation is that the boot info must be
contiguous.

I think an RFE is filed to relax this requirement as well.
I just can't find it right now.

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/18/11 04:52, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote:

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 04:39:07PM -0700, Cindy Swearingen wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0


BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?

I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now. Not being forced
to have dedicated pool just for the root if you happen to have more than
two disks in you box is very convenient.


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Jim Klimov]

2011-12-19 16:58, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote:

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:18:05AM +, Darren J Moffat wrote:

For those of us not familiar with how FreeBSD is installed and boots can
you explain how boot works (ie do you use GRUB at all and if so which
version and where the early boot ZFS code is).


We don't use GRUB, no. We use three stages for booting. Stage 0 is
bascially 512 byte of very simple MBR boot loader installed at the
begining of the disk that is used to launch stage 1 boot loader. Stage 1
is where we interpret all ZFS (or UFS) structure and read real files.
When you use GPT, there is dedicated partition (of type freebsd-boot)
where you install gptzfsboot binary (stage 0 looks for GPT partition of
type freebsd-boot, loads it and starts the code in there). This
partition doesn't contain file system of course, boot0 is too simple to
read any file system. The gptzfsboot is where we handle all ZFS-related
operations. gptzfsboot is mostly used to find root dataset and load
zfsloader from there. The zfsloader is the last stage in booting. It
shares the same ZFS-related code as gptzfsboot (but compiled into
separate binary), it loads modules and the kernel and starts it.
The zfsloader is stored in /boot/ directory on the root dataset.


Hmm... and is the freebsd-boot partition redundant somehow?
Is it mirrored or can be striped over several disks?

I was educated that the core problem lies in the system's
required ability to boot off any single device (including
volumes of several disks singularly presented by HWRAIDs).
This "BIOS boot device" should hold everything that is
required and sufficient to go on booting the OS and using
disk sets of some more sophisticated redundancy.

I gather that in FreeBSD's case this "self-sufficient"
bootloader is small and incurs a small storage overhead,
even if cloned to a dozen disks in your array?

In this case Solaris's problem with only-mirrored ZFS
on root pools is that the "self-sufficient" quantum
of required data is much larger; but otherwise the
situation is the same?

Thanks for clarifying,
//Jim
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Pawel Jakub Dawidek]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:18:05AM +, Darren J Moffat wrote:
> On 12/18/11 11:52, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 04:39:07PM -0700, Cindy Swearingen wrote:
> >> Hi Anon,
> >>
> >> The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
> >> and a slice 0.
> >>
> >> The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
> >> is like this, for example:
> >>
> >> # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0
> >
> > BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
> > RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
> > would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?
> >
> > I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
> > Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
> > pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now. Not being forced
> > to have dedicated pool just for the root if you happen to have more than
> > two disks in you box is very convenient.
> 
> For those of us not familiar with how FreeBSD is installed and boots can 
> you explain how boot works (ie do you use GRUB at all and if so which 
> version and where the early boot ZFS code is).

We don't use GRUB, no. We use three stages for booting. Stage 0 is
bascially 512 byte of very simple MBR boot loader installed at the
begining of the disk that is used to launch stage 1 boot loader. Stage 1
is where we interpret all ZFS (or UFS) structure and read real files.
When you use GPT, there is dedicated partition (of type freebsd-boot)
where you install gptzfsboot binary (stage 0 looks for GPT partition of
type freebsd-boot, loads it and starts the code in there). This
partition doesn't contain file system of course, boot0 is too simple to
read any file system. The gptzfsboot is where we handle all ZFS-related
operations. gptzfsboot is mostly used to find root dataset and load
zfsloader from there. The zfsloader is the last stage in booting. It
shares the same ZFS-related code as gptzfsboot (but compiled into
separate binary), it loads modules and the kernel and starts it.
The zfsloader is stored in /boot/ directory on the root dataset.

-- 
Pawel Jakub Dawidek   http://www.wheelsystems.com
FreeBSD committer http://www.FreeBSD.org
Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! http://yomoli.com


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Darren J Moffat]

On 12/18/11 11:52, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote:

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 04:39:07PM -0700, Cindy Swearingen wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0


BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?

I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now. Not being forced
to have dedicated pool just for the root if you happen to have more than
two disks in you box is very convenient.


For those of us not familiar with how FreeBSD is installed and boots can 
you explain how boot works (ie do you use GRUB at all and if so which 
version and where the early boot ZFS code is).


--
Darren J Moffat
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Nathan Kroenert]

 Do note, that though Frank is correct, you have to be a little careful 
around what might happen should you drop your original disk, and only 
the large mirror half is left... ;)


On 12/16/11 07:09 PM, Frank Cusack wrote:
You can just do fdisk to create a single large partition.  The 
attached mirror doesn't have to be the same size as the first component.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Gregg Wonderly > wrote:


Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the
surfaces, including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today
trying to get a new mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB
disk that failed.  I only had a 1.5TB handy as a replacement.
 prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work in this case and so you have
to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly to fight with
anyway.

Gregg

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Tim Cook mailto:t...@cook.ms>> wrote:


Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen"
mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:


On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one
drive is there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was
discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the
answer. Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Pawel Jakub Dawidek]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 07:24:27PM +0700, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Pawel Jakub Dawidek  wrote:
> > BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
> > RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
> > would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?
> >
> > I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
> > Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
> > pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now.
> 
> Really? How do they do that?

Well, the boot code has access to all the disks, so it is just matter of
being able to intepret the data, which our boot code can do.

> In Linux, you can boot from disks with GPT label with grub2, and have
> "/" on raidz, but only as long as /boot is on grub2-compatible fs
> (e.g. single or mirrored zfs pool, ext4, etc).

This is not the same. On FreeBSD everything, including root file system
and boot directory, can be on RAIDZ.

-- 
Pawel Jakub Dawidek   http://www.wheelsystems.com
FreeBSD committer http://www.FreeBSD.org
Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! http://yomoli.com


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Fajar A. Nugraha]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Pawel Jakub Dawidek  wrote:
> BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
> RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
> would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?
>
> I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
> Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
> pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now.

Really? How do they do that?

In Linux, you can boot from disks with GPT label with grub2, and have
"/" on raidz, but only as long as /boot is on grub2-compatible fs
(e.g. single or mirrored zfs pool, ext4, etc).

-- 
Fajar
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Pawel Jakub Dawidek]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 04:39:07PM -0700, Cindy Swearingen wrote:
> Hi Anon,
> 
> The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
> and a slice 0.
> 
> The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
> is like this, for example:
> 
> # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

BTW. Can you, Cindy, or someone else reveal why one cannot boot from
RAIDZ on Solaris? Is this because Solaris is using GRUB and RAIDZ code
would have to be licensed under GPL as the rest of the boot code?

I'm asking, because I see no technical problems with this functionality.
Booting off of RAIDZ (even RAIDZ3) and also from multi-top-level-vdev
pools works just fine on FreeBSD for a long time now. Not being forced
to have dedicated pool just for the root if you happen to have more than
two disks in you box is very convenient.

-- 
Pawel Jakub Dawidek   http://www.wheelsystems.com
FreeBSD committer http://www.FreeBSD.org
Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! http://yomoli.com


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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Yep, well said, understood, point taken, I hear you, you're
preaching to the choir. Have faith in Santa.

A few comments:

1. I need more info on the x86 install issue. I haven't seen this
problem myself.

2. We don't use slice2 for anything and its not recommended.

3. The SMI disk is a long-standing boot requirement. We're
working on it.

4. Both the s10 and s11 installer can create a mirrored root pool
so you don't have to do this manually.

If you do have do this manually in the S11 release, you can use
this shortcut to slap on a new label but it does no error checking
so make sure you have the right disk:

# format -L vtoc -d c1t0d0

Unfortunately, this applies the default partition table, which
might be a 129MB slice 0, so you still have to do the other 17 steps to
create one large slice 0. I filed an RFE to do something like this:

# format -L vtoc -a(ll) s0 c1t0d0

5. The overlapping partition error on x86 systems is a bug (unless they
really are overlapping) and you can override it by using the -f option.

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/16/11 09:44, Gregg Wonderly wrote:

The issue is really quite simple. The solaris install, on x86 at least,
chooses to use slice-0 for the root partition. That slice is not created
by a default format/fdisk, and so we have the web strewn with

prtvtoc path/to/old/slice2 | fmthard -s - path/to/new/slice2

As a way to cause the two commands to "access" the entire disk. If you
have to use dissimilar sized disks because 1) that's the only media you
have, or 2) you want to increase the size of your root pool, then all we
end up with, is an error message about overlapping partitions and no
ability to make progress.

If I then use dd if=/dev/zero to erase the front of the disk, and the
fire up format, select fdisk, say yes to create solaris2 partitioning,
and then use partition to add a slice 0, I will have problems getting
the whole disk in play.

So, the end result, is that I have to jump through hoops, when in the
end, I'd really like to just add the whole disk, every time. If I say

zpool attach rpool c8t0d0s0 c12d1

I really do mean the whole disk, and I'm not sure why it can't "just
happen". Failing to type a "slice" reference, is no worse of a 'typo'
than typing 's2' by accident, because that's what I've been typing with
all the other commands to try and get the disk partitioned.

I just really think there's not a lot of value in all of this,
especially with ZFS, where we can, in fact add more disks/vdevs to a
keep expanding space, and extremely rarely is that going to be done, for
the root pool, with fractions of disks.

The use of SMI and absolute refusal to use EFI partitioning plus all of
this just stacks up to a pretty large barrier to "simple" and/or "easy"
administration.

I'm very nervous when I have a simplex filesystem setting there, and
when a disk has "died", I'm doubly nervous that the other half is going
to fall over.

I'm not trying to be hard nosed about this, I'm just trying to share my
angst and frustration with the details that drove me in that direction.

Gregg Wonderly

On 12/16/2011 2:56 AM, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

On 12/16/11 07:27 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:

Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the
surfaces, including the partition tables? I spent an hour today
trying to get a new mirror on my root pool. There was a 250GB disk
that failed. I only had a 1.5TB handy as a replacement. prtvtoc ... |
fmthard does not work in this case


Can you be more specific why it fails?
I have seen a couple of cases, and I'm wondering if you're hitting the
same thing.
Can you post the prtvtoc output of your original disk please?


and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly
to fight with anyway.

Gregg




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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Gregg Wonderly]

The issue is really quite simple.   The solaris install, on x86 at least, 
chooses to use slice-0 for the root partition.  That slice is not created by a 
default format/fdisk, and so we have the web strewn with


prtvtoc path/to/old/slice2 | fmthard -s - path/to/new/slice2

As a way to cause the two commands to "access" the entire disk.   If you have to 
use dissimilar sized disks because 1) that's the only media you have, or 2) you 
want to increase the size of your root pool, then all we end up with, is an 
error message about overlapping partitions and no ability to make progress.


If I then use dd if=/dev/zero to erase the front of the disk, and the fire up 
format, select fdisk, say yes to create solaris2 partitioning, and then use 
partition to add a slice 0, I will have problems getting the whole disk in play.


So, the end result, is that I have to jump through hoops, when in the end, I'd 
really like to just add the whole disk, every time.  If I say


zpool attach rpool c8t0d0s0 c12d1

I really do mean the whole disk, and I'm not sure why it can't "just happen".  
Failing to type a "slice" reference, is no worse of a 'typo' than typing 's2' by 
accident, because that's what I've been typing with all the other commands to 
try and get the disk partitioned.


I just really think there's not a lot of value in all of this, especially with 
ZFS, where we can, in fact add more disks/vdevs to a keep expanding space, and 
extremely rarely is that going to be done, for the root pool, with fractions of 
disks.


The use of SMI and absolute refusal to use EFI partitioning plus all of this 
just stacks up to a pretty large barrier to "simple" and/or "easy" administration.


I'm very nervous when I have a simplex filesystem setting there, and when a disk 
has "died", I'm doubly nervous that the other half is going to fall over.


I'm not trying to be hard nosed about this, I'm just trying to share my angst 
and frustration with the details that drove me in that direction.


Gregg Wonderly

On 12/16/2011 2:56 AM, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

On 12/16/11 07:27 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the surfaces, 
including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today trying to get a new 
mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB disk that failed.  I only had a 
1.5TB handy as a replacement.  prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work in this case


Can you be more specific why it fails?
I have seen a couple of cases, and I'm wondering if you're hitting the same 
thing.

Can you post the prtvtoc output of your original disk please?

and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly to fight 
with anyway.


Gregg




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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Hi Gregg,

Yes, fighting with partitioning is just silly.

Santa will bring us bootable GPT/EFI labels in the coming year
is my wish so you will be able to just attach disks to root
pools.

Send us some output so we can see what the trouble is.

In the meantime, the links below might help.

Thanks,

Cindy


http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/821-1459/disksprep-34.html

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/821-1459/diskssadd-2.html#diskssadd-5

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/821-1459/disksxadd-2.html#disksxadd-30



On 12/16/11 00:27, Gregg Wonderly wrote:

Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the surfaces,
including the partition tables? I spent an hour today trying to get a
new mirror on my root pool. There was a 250GB disk that failed. I only
had a 1.5TB handy as a replacement. prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work
in this case and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is
just silly to fight with anyway.

Gregg

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Tim Cook mailto:t...@cook.ms>>
wrote:


Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen"
mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:


On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is
there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was
discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer.
Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Hi Tim,

No, in current Solaris releases the boot blocks are installed
automatically with a zpool attach operation on a root pool.

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 17:13, Tim Cook wrote:

Do you still need to do the grub install?

On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen" mailto:cindy.swearin...@oracle.com>> wrote:

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:


On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is
there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer.
Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Anonymous Remailer (austria)]

Thank you all for your answers and links :-)
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Andrew Gabriel]

On 12/16/11 07:27 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the 
surfaces, including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today 
trying to get a new mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB disk 
that failed.  I only had a 1.5TB handy as a replacement.  prtvtoc ... 
| fmthard does not work in this case


Can you be more specific why it fails?
I have seen a couple of cases, and I'm wondering if you're hitting the 
same thing.

Can you post the prtvtoc output of your original disk please?

and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly to 
fight with anyway.


Gregg


--
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

You can just do fdisk to create a single large partition.  The attached
mirror doesn't have to be the same size as the first component.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Gregg Wonderly  wrote:

> Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the surfaces,
> including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today trying to get a new
> mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB disk that failed.  I only had a
> 1.5TB handy as a replacement.  prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work in this
> case and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly to
> fight with anyway.
>
> Gregg
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Tim Cook  wrote:
>
> Do you still need to do the grub install?
> On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anon,
>>
>> The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
>> and a slice 0.
>>
>> The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
>> is like this, for example:
>>
>> # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a
>>> way
>>> to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
>>> already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
>>> __**_
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>>>
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>>
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Gregg Wonderly]

Cindy, will it ever be possible to just have attach mirror the surfaces, 
including the partition tables?  I spent an hour today trying to get a new 
mirror on my root pool.  There was a 250GB disk that failed.  I only had a 
1.5TB handy as a replacement.  prtvtoc ... | fmthard does not work in this case 
and so you have to do the partitioning by hand, which is just silly to fight 
with anyway.

Gregg

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Tim Cook  wrote:

> Do you still need to do the grub install?
> 
> On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen"  
> wrote:
> Hi Anon,
> 
> The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
> and a slice 0.
> 
> The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
> is like this, for example:
> 
> # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Cindy
> 
> On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:
> 
> On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
> to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
> already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Tim Cook]

Do you still need to do the grub install?
On Dec 15, 2011 5:40 PM, "Cindy Swearingen" 
wrote:

> Hi Anon,
>
> The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
> and a slice 0.
>
> The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
> is like this, for example:
>
> # zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cindy
>
> On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:
>
>>
>> On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
>> to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
>> already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
>> __**_
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>> http://mail.opensolaris.org/**mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>>
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>
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

It can still be done for USB, but you have to boot from alternate media to
attach the mirror.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Frank Cusack  wrote:

> Yes, except if your root pool is on a USB stick or removable media.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Anonymous Remailer (austria) <
> mixmas...@remailer.privacy.at> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
>> to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
>> already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
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>
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Frank Cusack]

Yes, except if your root pool is on a USB stick or removable media.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Anonymous Remailer (austria) <
mixmas...@remailer.privacy.at> wrote:

>
> On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
> to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
> already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[John D Groenveld]

In message , "Anonymous R
emailer (austria)" writes:
>On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
>to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
>already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23823_01/html/819-5461/ggset.html#gkdep>
| How to Create a Mirrored ZFS Root Pool (Postinstallation)

John
groenv...@acm.org
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Cindy Swearingen]

Hi Anon,

The disk that you attach to the root pool will need an SMI label
and a slice 0.

The syntax to attach a disk to create a mirrored root pool
is like this, for example:

# zpool attach rpool c1t0d0s0 c1t1d0s0

Thanks,

Cindy

On 12/15/11 16:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:


On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Can I create a mirror for a root rpool?

[Alan Hargreaves]

Title: signature

  
  
You do it as you would any zpool. Mirroring is OK for the zpool.
  It's just things like raidz* and concats that are not.

# zpool attach rpool device

Note the use of attach. "add" will try to make a concat.

Regards,
  Alan Hargreaves


On 12/16/11 10:20, Anonymous Remailer (austria) wrote:

  
On Solaris 10 If I install using ZFS root on only one drive is there a way
to add another drive as a mirror later? Sorry if this was discussed
already. I searched the archives and couldn't find the answer. Thank you.
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