Re: [zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
On Sat, November 21, 2009 20:25, Al Hopper wrote: And the last silly question. It seems to me that you'd have many, many adopters if there was a real answer to what the HCL tries to be and isn't - an answer to if I buy this stuff, do I have a prayer of making it work, or is there a subtle gotcha that's going to waste my time and money? We used to solve that with reference designs. They don't have to be perfect, they don't have to be optimal, but they should be practical and they should be modestly predictable given moderate skill in the art. Agreed - the HCL has not proved to be as useful, in practice, as most users would like. It's a difficult task - but the typical OpenSolaris builder is unwilling to put the effort in to contribute to the HCL. Current OpenSolaris releases work well enough and support enough current hardware that the risk of something mainstream *not* working is pretty slim. Of course its very inconvenient to install an OS and then find that it did'nt come with a driver for the onboard NIC, without the NIC, you can't get and install the required driver conveniently. The problem of course is how quickly the hardware world is still moving. Is there enough information available from system configuration utilities to make an automatic HCL (or unofficial HCL competitor) feasible? Someone could write an application people could run which would report their opinion on how well it works, plus the self-reported identity of all key components? (It could report uptime, too, as one very small objective rating of stability.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
On 11/23/09 10:10 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Is there enough information available from system configuration utilities to make an automatic HCL (or unofficial HCL competitor) feasible? Someone could write an application people could run which would report their opinion on how well it works, plus the self-reported identity of all key components? (It could report uptime, too, as one very small objective rating of stability.) IIRC, the HCL doesn't really talk about applications. We have some really flaky PCs that run Open Solaris beautifully and their uptime is measured in months (basically only new releases or long power cuts make them come down). Would I recommend them for a ZFS based server? Not a chance! But they make super reliable X-Terminals... As Richard Elling has pointed out so eloquently, a reliable storage system has to be engineered to minimize or eliminate SPoFS, and I doubt you'll ever find that on an HCL, which really serves a different purpose, IMO. Cheers -- Frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
On Mon, November 23, 2009 09:53, Frank Middleton wrote: On 11/23/09 10:10 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Is there enough information available from system configuration utilities to make an automatic HCL (or unofficial HCL competitor) feasible? Someone could write an application people could run which would report their opinion on how well it works, plus the self-reported identity of all key components? (It could report uptime, too, as one very small objective rating of stability.) IIRC, the HCL doesn't really talk about applications. We have some really flaky PCs that run Open Solaris beautifully and their uptime is measured in months (basically only new releases or long power cuts make them come down). Would I recommend them for a ZFS based server? Not a chance! But they make super reliable X-Terminals... So they're okay except maybe for IO? Well, that's the sort of thing people could add comments on as they got experience with them. Still seems like it could be useful. As Richard Elling has pointed out so eloquently, a reliable storage system has to be engineered to minimize or eliminate SPoFS, and I doubt you'll ever find that on an HCL, which really serves a different purpose, IMO. Lots of storage servers, outside the big corporate environment, can't afford full-blown redundancy. For many of us, we're just taking the first steps into using any kind of redundancy at all in disks for our file servers. Full enterprise-grade storage is too expensive for many of us, and we're looking for close to that level risk of loss, but are willing to sacrifice some on the availability (it's okay for the server to be down while I replace the power supply; after all, I can't be sitting at my computer anyway, I have to replace this power supply). -- David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
Your point is well taken, Frank, and I agree - there has to be some serious design work for reliability. My background includes both hardware design for reliability and field service engineering support, so the issues are not at all foreign to me. Nor are the limits of something like a volunteer reporting mechanism like the HCL. One reason for the existence of this forum is the advocacy of opensolaris and presumably its expansion into the computing world. While many of the people who post here are undoubtedly working professionals in the solaris/opensolaris and *nix worlds, the number is limited. But there is a much larger number of people who are fully capable of building and setting up opensolaris systems who would love to do so given the promise of zfs as an application. They don't (yet) love the OS, they want the tool for other things. They might well come to love the OS if they got the tool. The mystery (as viewed by a beginner/outsider) involved in getting a small, affordable, usable and modestly reliable data storage system set up is preventing the inclusion of a whole lot of prospective converts. Nexenta has noted this, and is presumably making money solving this issue for people. Look what happened to the PC world when DIY hardware/OS setups happened. So I think that making reference designs available in some way is a Good Thing for the opensolaris community to prosper. But what do I know? 8-) -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
Thank you Al! That's exactly the kind of information I needed. I very much appreciate the help. It would be helpful to give us a broad description of what type of data you're planning on storing. Small files, large files, required capactity etc. and we can probably make some specific recommendations. I'm storing small files, large-ish files, few GB max. Capacity is dollar driven. I can probably continuously afford about a half dozen to a dozen hard drives at the average price of $100 a drive; that capacity will work fine for my needs. I'm doing general backup and data-save for my house network, about half a dozen machines on the house net, each with 1 or 2 hard drives partially used. No editing movies or animation, not storing my 1000 ripped DVDs. Personally I get great satisfaction from rolling my own. I do too, to the point that my long suffering Significant Other will avoid mentioning *anything* which I might want to do myself for fear that it will go on the bottom of the to-do list. 8-) It's a good thing I don't know how to refine iron ore. Oh, wait... I do! 8-) Agreed - the HCL has not proved to be as useful, in practice, as most users would like. It's a difficult task - but the typical OpenSolaris builder is unwilling to put the effort in to contribute to the HCL. I'm calmer now... 8-) and I do understand that volunteer efforts either get done by zealots or tend to starve. Not sure which of those is better, but it's probably accurate. Overall I think you've done your homework very well. I'm sure others will contribute alternatives. In this post I've focused on the topic of the choices you've made, rather than discuss alternatives. Which I appreciate very much. Given that, I may be able to proceed. I don't care that I have the optimum solution, just a workable one that's affordable and current. There are some disciplines where I can tell if some system will work by just a casual inspection. Unfortunately, opensolaris isn't one of them. Please keep the list posted on your progress and final config and what you learn through building and using it. I'll do that. Again, thanks for the on-target info. -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] Fwd: The 100, 000th beginner question about a zfs server
-- Forwarded message -- From: Al Hopper a...@logical-approach.com Date: Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] The 100,000th beginner question about a zfs server To: R.G. Keen k...@geofex.com On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 7:08 PM, R.G. Keen k...@geofex.com wrote: With apologies for clogging up the forum with beginner questions - No problem - we've all been there. I'm trying to figure out how to build a home zfs server. Common question. In the last two months of reading the net and here, I've found many answers, none of which would convince me to part with the $800-$1K to do it. So can someone take pity on a beginner and tell me - will this work? It's about my seventeenth paper design for the server. Objectives are You get extra points for putting in this amount of effort before this post! 1 - zfs and other considerations for data preservation It would be helpful to give us a broad description of what type of data you're planning on storing. Small files, large files, required capactity etc. and we can probably make some specific recommendations. 2 - file server operation 3 - units of terabytes, consistent with a few (less than a dozen) disks 4 - as low an electrical power use as practical, given the above I've thrashed through Intel vs AMD, ECC, chipset support, number of ports, adapters, and so on ad nauseum. Here's what I think will work: Supermicro MBD-X7SBL-LN1-O intel Xeon E3110 unregistered ECC, 4GB - 8GB I see that your research has shown the importance of using ECC memory. Hence the Xeon based choice. Good choice. What I can't pick out of the overwhelming flood of raw data I've read is: 1 - does opensolaris offer driver support for the SATA ports resident on the motherboard (Intel® 3200 + ICH9R), or must I get another board to run them? I'm happy with the six SATA ports on the MB to start with Yes the Intel ICH9R is supported. 2 - does opensolaris directly support the LAN chips ( Intel 82573V) on that MB, or must I grab a NIC to stick in a slot? The Intel based NICs are well supported by OpenSolaris and have been historically. Good choice. 3 - does opensolaris support that graphics chipset (XGI Volari Z9S) well enough to let me install and get it bootstrapped into operation, after which I'll make it headless. It'll definately work in a VGA mode. Thats all you'll need for setup. 4 - Are there any gotchas which would keep me from enabling and running the ECC memory functions productively; I think this is a no, but as long as I'm asking questions... None. It's usually a BIOS config option and transparent to the OS. Things of some considerations but lesser importance: 5. Electrical power; the E3110 is a low-ish power chip (nominally 65W) Low power is nice, but not a killer. I'd prefer it to be low, and am willing to take slow to get more of that, because my file server needs are not in any way real time. I just need a large, but reliable, bit bucket. The requirement for ECC limits you from most of the popular motherboard and processor choices. This is one of the few remaining dividing lines used to separate the marketplace into consumer or enterprise categories. And to enable use of a dual pricing schedule. 6. Cost; I've been through several iterations of something with an AMD Athlon 11 X2 240e with an Asus motherboard to get lower power and cost for the same objectives. I can't tell that the silly thing would or would not be something I could make run. And frankly, the data is worth more than the extra $200 or so for the intel solution - iff the intel solution works. But I really am not interested in buying a canned commercial solution for a couple of $K. I'm willing to put in the work setting up and managing the system in lieu of that, so there is a dollar threshold, I guess. Personally I get great satisfaction from rolling my own. And the last silly question. It seems to me that you'd have many, many adopters if there was a real answer to what the HCL tries to be and isn't - an answer to if I buy this stuff, do I have a prayer of making it work, or is there a subtle gotcha that's going to waste my time and money? We used to solve that with reference designs. They don't have to be perfect, they don't have to be optimal, but they should be practical and they should be modestly predictable given moderate skill in the art. Agreed - the HCL has not proved to be as useful, in practice, as most users would like. It's a difficult task - but the typical OpenSolaris builder is unwilling to put the effort in to contribute to the HCL. Current OpenSolaris releases work well enough and support enough current hardware that the risk of something mainstream *not* working is pretty slim. Of course its very inconvenient to install an OS and then find that it did'nt come with a driver for the onboard NIC, without the NIC, you can't get and install the required driver conveniently.
