Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 06:36:37PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: On 21-Aug-10, at 3:06 PM, Ross Walker wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Bill Sommerfeld bill.sommerf...@oracle.com wrote: On 08/21/10 10:14, Ross Walker wrote: ... Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? IMHO, no; the resulting system will be significantly more brittle. Exactly how brittle I guess depends on the Equallogic system. If you don't let zfs manage redundancy, Bill is correct: it's a more fragile system that *cannot* self heal data errors in the (deep) stack. Quantifying the increased risk, is a question that Richard Elling could probably answer :) That's because ZFS does not have a way to handle a large class of storage designs, specifically the ones with raw storage and disk management being provided by reliable SAN devices. -- -Gary Mills--Unix Group--Computer and Network Services- ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote: On 21-Aug-10, at 3:06 PM, Ross Walker wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Bill Sommerfeld bill.sommerf...@oracle.com wrote: On 08/21/10 10:14, Ross Walker wrote: ... Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? IMHO, no; the resulting system will be significantly more brittle. Exactly how brittle I guess depends on the Equallogic system. If you don't let zfs manage redundancy, Bill is correct: it's a more fragile system that *cannot* self heal data errors in the (deep) stack. Quantifying the increased risk, is a question that Richard Elling could probably answer :) The risk of data loss isn't very different between ZFS and a hardware RAID array. The difference is the impact of the loss. What we've observed over the years is that older generation or budget RAID arrays that do not verify the data and will happily pass corrupted data up the stack. ZFS will detect this, providing two important control points: 1. The silent error is silent no more -- the corrupted file will be noted in the logs and the output of zpool status -xv This is a huge win for the recovery effort because you can quickly determine the scope of the damage and plan a recovery from backups, if needed. 2. The policy on how to present this information to the application requesting data and the systems administrator is somewhat flexible. See the failmode property in the zpool(1m) man page. If I may put it in order of preference: + Minimum effort: protect your data using regular backups + Better: add RAID of some sort to protect against whole disk failure + Best: add ZFS for data management, end-to-end error detection, copies, etc. -- richard -- OpenStorage Summit, October 25-27, San Fransisco http://nexenta-summit2010.eventbrite.com Richard Elling rich...@nexenta.com +1-760-896-4422 Enterprise class storage for everyone www.nexenta.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
I'm planning on setting up an NFS server for our ESXi hosts and plan on using a virtualized Solaris or Nexenta host to serve ZFS over NFS. The storage I have available is provided by Equallogic boxes over 10Gbe iSCSI. I am trying to figure out the best way to provide both performance and resiliency given the Equallogic provides the redundancy. Since I am hoping to provide a 2TB datastore I am thinking of carving out either 3 1TB luns or 6 500GB luns that will be RDM'd to the storage VM and within the storage server setting up either 1 raidz vdev with the 1TB luns (less RDMs) or 2 raidz vdevs with the 500GB luns (more fine grained expandability, work in 1TB increments). Given the 2GB of write-back cache on the Equallogic I think the integrated ZIL would work fine (needs benchmarking though). The vmdk files themselves won't be backed up (more data then I can store), just the essential data contained within, so I would think resiliency would be important here. My questions are these. Does this setup make sense? Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? Will this setup perform? Anybody with experience in this type of setup? -Ross ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On 08/21/10 10:14, Ross Walker wrote: I am trying to figure out the best way to provide both performance and resiliency given the Equallogic provides the redundancy. (I have no specific experience with Equallogic; the following is just generic advice) Every bit stored in zfs is checksummed at the block level; zfs will not use data or metadata if the checksum doesn't match. zfs relies on redundancy (storing multiple copies) to provide resilience; if it can't independently read the multiple copies and pick the one it likes, it can't recover from bitrot or failure of the underlying storage. if you want resilience, zfs must be responsible for redundancy. You imply having multiple storage servers. The simplest thing to do is export one large LUN from each of two different storage servers, and have ZFS mirror them. While this reduces the available space, depending on your workload, you can make some of it back by enabling compression. And, given sufficiently recent software, and sufficient memory and/or ssd for l2arc, you can enable dedup. Of course, the effectiveness of both dedup and compression depends on your workload. Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? IMHO, no; the resulting system will be significantly more brittle. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Bill Sommerfeld bill.sommerf...@oracle.com wrote: On 08/21/10 10:14, Ross Walker wrote: I am trying to figure out the best way to provide both performance and resiliency given the Equallogic provides the redundancy. (I have no specific experience with Equallogic; the following is just generic advice) Every bit stored in zfs is checksummed at the block level; zfs will not use data or metadata if the checksum doesn't match. I understand that much and is the reason I picked ZFS for persistent data storage. zfs relies on redundancy (storing multiple copies) to provide resilience; if it can't independently read the multiple copies and pick the one it likes, it can't recover from bitrot or failure of the underlying storage. Can't auto-recover, but will report the failure so it can be restored from backup, but since the vmdk files are too big to backup... if you want resilience, zfs must be responsible for redundancy. Must have, not necessarily have full control. You imply having multiple storage servers. The simplest thing to do is export one large LUN from each of two different storage servers, and have ZFS mirror them. Well... You need to know that the multiple storage servers are acting as a single pool with tiered storage levels (SAS 15K in RAID10 and SATA in RAID6) and luns are auto-tiered across these based on demand performance, so a pool of mirrors won't really provide any more performance then a raidz (same physical RAID) and raidz will only waste 33% as oppose to 50%. While this reduces the available space, depending on your workload, you can make some of it back by enabling compression. And, given sufficiently recent software, and sufficient memory and/or ssd for l2arc, you can enable dedup. The host is a blade server with no room for SSDs, but if SSD investment is needed in the future I can add an SSD Equallogic box to the storage pool. Of course, the effectiveness of both dedup and compression depends on your workload. Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? IMHO, no; the resulting system will be significantly more brittle. Exactly how brittle I guess depends on the Equallogic system. -Ross ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Ross Walker wrote: I'm planning on setting up an NFS server for our ESXi hosts and plan on using a virtualized Solaris or Nexenta host to serve ZFS over NFS. Please follow the joint EMC+NetApp best practices for VMware ESX servers. The recommendations apply to any NFS implementation for ESX. The storage I have available is provided by Equallogic boxes over 10Gbe iSCSI. I am trying to figure out the best way to provide both performance and resiliency given the Equallogic provides the redundancy. Since I am hoping to provide a 2TB datastore I am thinking of carving out either 3 1TB luns or 6 500GB luns that will be RDM'd to the storage VM and within the storage server setting up either 1 raidz vdev with the 1TB luns (less RDMs) or 2 raidz vdevs with the 500GB luns (more fine grained expandability, work in 1TB increments). Given the 2GB of write-back cache on the Equallogic I think the integrated ZIL would work fine (needs benchmarking though). This should work fine. The vmdk files themselves won't be backed up (more data then I can store), just the essential data contained within, so I would think resiliency would be important here. My questions are these. Does this setup make sense? Yes, it is perfectly reasonable. Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? I don't have much direct experience with Equillogic, but I would expect that they do a reasonable job of protecting data, or they would be out of business. You can also use the copies parameter to set extra redundancy for the important files. ZFS will also tell you if corruption is found in a single file, so that you can recover just the file and not be forced to recover everything else. I think this fits into your back strategy. Will this setup perform? Anybody with experience in this type of setup? Many people are quite happy with RAID arrays and still take advantage of the features of ZFS: checksums, snapshots, clones, send/receive, VMware integration, etc. The decision of where to implement data protection (RAID) is not as important as the decision to protect your data. My advice: protect your data. -- richard -- Richard Elling rich...@nexenta.com +1-760-896-4422 Enterprise class storage for everyone www.nexenta.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Aug 21, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Richard Elling rich...@nexenta.com wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Ross Walker wrote: I'm planning on setting up an NFS server for our ESXi hosts and plan on using a virtualized Solaris or Nexenta host to serve ZFS over NFS. Please follow the joint EMC+NetApp best practices for VMware ESX servers. The recommendations apply to any NFS implementation for ESX. Thanks, I'll check that out! Always looking for advice on how best to tweak NFS for ESX. I have a current ZFS over NFS implementation, but on direct attached storage using Sol10. I will be interested to see how Nexenta compares. The storage I have available is provided by Equallogic boxes over 10Gbe iSCSI. I am trying to figure out the best way to provide both performance and resiliency given the Equallogic provides the redundancy. Since I am hoping to provide a 2TB datastore I am thinking of carving out either 3 1TB luns or 6 500GB luns that will be RDM'd to the storage VM and within the storage server setting up either 1 raidz vdev with the 1TB luns (less RDMs) or 2 raidz vdevs with the 500GB luns (more fine grained expandability, work in 1TB increments). Given the 2GB of write-back cache on the Equallogic I think the integrated ZIL would work fine (needs benchmarking though). This should work fine. The vmdk files themselves won't be backed up (more data then I can store), just the essential data contained within, so I would think resiliency would be important here. My questions are these. Does this setup make sense? Yes, it is perfectly reasonable. Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? I don't have much direct experience with Equillogic, but I would expect that they do a reasonable job of protecting data, or they would be out of business. You can also use the copies parameter to set extra redundancy for the important files. ZFS will also tell you if corruption is found in a single file, so that you can recover just the file and not be forced to recover everything else. I think this fits into your back strategy. I thought of the copies parameter, but figured a raidz laid on top of the storage pool would only waste 33% instead of 50% and since this is on top of a conceptually single RAID volume the IOPS bottleneck won't come into play since the any single drive IOPS will be equal to the array IOPS as a whole. Will this setup perform? Anybody with experience in this type of setup? Many people are quite happy with RAID arrays and still take advantage of the features of ZFS: checksums, snapshots, clones, send/receive, VMware integration, etc. The decision of where to implement data protection (RAID) is not as important as the decision to protect your data. My advice: protect your data. Always good advice. So I suppose this just confirms my analysis. Thanks, -Ross ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Ross Walker wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Richard Elling rich...@nexenta.com wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Ross Walker wrote: I'm planning on setting up an NFS server for our ESXi hosts and plan on using a virtualized Solaris or Nexenta host to serve ZFS over NFS. Please follow the joint EMC+NetApp best practices for VMware ESX servers. The recommendations apply to any NFS implementation for ESX. Thanks, I'll check that out! Always looking for advice on how best to tweak NFS for ESX. In this case, it is ESX over NFS recommendations. You will want to change the settings on the ESX server. http://www.vmware.com/files/pdf/partners/netapp_esx_best_practices_whitepaper.pdf -- richard -- OpenStorage Summit, October 25-27, San Fransisco http://nexenta-summit2010.eventbrite.com Richard Elling rich...@nexenta.com +1-760-896-4422 Enterprise class storage for everyone www.nexenta.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS with Equallogic storage
On 21-Aug-10, at 3:06 PM, Ross Walker wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Bill Sommerfeld bill.sommerf...@oracle.com wrote: On 08/21/10 10:14, Ross Walker wrote: ... Would I be better off forgoing resiliency for simplicity, putting all my faith into the Equallogic to handle data resiliency? IMHO, no; the resulting system will be significantly more brittle. Exactly how brittle I guess depends on the Equallogic system. If you don't let zfs manage redundancy, Bill is correct: it's a more fragile system that *cannot* self heal data errors in the (deep) stack. Quantifying the increased risk, is a question that Richard Elling could probably answer :) --Toby -Ross ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
