Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > I am just as comfortable with Moslems and Buddhists as I am with traditional >Christians, perhaps more so. Moslems and Buddhists have a much better excuse for >their ignorance. Traditional Christians are sinning against a much greater light >when they reject the servants of God, our missionaries. It is not a coincidence that >nearly all foaming-at-mouth anti-Mormons are so-called Christians. It was primarily >these other Christian denominations that the Lord had reference to when he told >Joseph that their creeds were an abomination and all their professors corrupt. > > Of course, I am aware that this attitude is no longer politically correct in the >Church. Oh, I don't think you're as off-key as you might be letting on. The creeds are still abominations, and both the English language and Christianity have changed, too. In fact, Christianity is much more liberal -- except for the rabid types you describe -- than it used to be, and therefore also more tolerant (regardless of what other consequences that trend has had). It's easier to build bridges when the government isn't sending troops after you for your religious beliefs, after all. > But it is the attitude that I share with such men as Smith, Young, Talmage, and >McConkie. So I feel that I am in good company. Part of the reason GBH is the way he is is that he can afford to be. Put another way, prophets have their time. BY might not have "worked" today, but he was sure what was needed at the time, and so on. > I won't forget what falsehood this gospel has freed me from. My own mother wouldn't >join me in the gospel because her Baptist friends persuaded her that she had lost me >to a cult. She threw the missionaries out of her home half way through the first >missionary discussion, a discussion the she had agreed to only because I was her son. > I have more hope for the alcoholics and drug addicts in this world than I do for my >mother. How many people actually get a chance to throw Mormon missionaries out of >their home? The Lord will judge her, not I. But he has made clear who is saved in >the Kingdom of God, and who is damned. And it all hinges on believing Christ and his >missionaries. If we believe in Christ and accept his one true baptism, then we are >saved in the > Kingdom of God. And if we don't, we aren't. It is actually pretty cut and dried, >black and white. I'm speaking past you, and in full appreciation of what you've gone through, so don't think of this as me trying to pull oneupmanship on you, but my wife and I used to be friends with a couple who, unfortunately, later went inactive. They met and got married about the time we met them, in 1980. She was Polish and had moved to Calgary with a degree in economics from the U of Warsaw at the height of the Cold War. She was, she claimed, not "Marxist" but "socialist" whatever that meant, especially in those days. He was an immigrant, too, from Iran via Germany. Truth is stranger than fiction: he was of Azerbaijani ethnic origin but from an Azerbaijani corner of Iran (extreme NW, sharing territory with the Kurds, near the Turkish and Azerbaijani borders). He had been a pilot and a member of the Shah's Bodyguards who had to leave Iran when the Shah was overthrown, so moved to Germany, where a wealthy insurance executive who -- get this -- lived on one of the very streets I had tracted on my mission, adopted him. Where were his parents? They held a funeral for him when he moved to Germany because they assumed that meant he was giving up Islam; they believed in a variety of Islam that's almost "Zionist" in nature in the sense of believing in Dar-al-Islam, or "Land/Home/Place of Submission [to God]" -- a pretty good translation of "Zion" in many ways. So by leaving Dar-al-Islam for their counterpart of the Gentile world, he was dead, and any clansmen, to protect the clan's honour, if they ever met him again, would be required to kill him. So they held his funeral for him while they could. The Bavarian government accepted that as "virtual orphanhood" and approved the adoption. Odd thing is, that drove him to study Christianity, and by chance, when he had a chance to transfer from the U of Munich to U of Calgary, his stepfather urged him to take it, and he fell in, as it were, with us Mormons and joined the Church. Unfortunately they both became, imho, a little over-obsessed with the things of this world. He went to Toronto for a year to chiropractor school, and moved back right back into our ward and set up a practice, while she went to school to get a "real" degree in economics. He didn't have to work -- his stepfather doted on him and would send them outrageously ostentatious presents -- but he felt guilty that he had it too easy, and that without a prestigious position, he wouldn't amount to anything in this new "land of millionaries" (well, this was Calgary during the last oil boom). So it wasn
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
>It is not a coincidence that nearly all foaming-at-mouth anti-Mormons are so-called >Christians. It was primarily these other Christian denominations that the Lord had >reference to when he told Joseph that their creeds were an abomination and all their >professors corrupt. They will all be destroyed and damned if they don't speedily repent! "Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb." 1 Ne 11:36 >Of course, I am aware that this attitude is no longer politically correct in the Church. That depends on who you are talking to. I think what the Savior said in the grove should be shouted upon the house tops as well as D&C 1. >If we believe in Christ and accept his one true baptism, then we are saved in the >Kingdom of God. And if we don't, we aren't. It is actually pretty cut and dried, black >and white. That's correct. "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Mat 5:37 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16 Cut and dry and black and white. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
At 01:40 PM 10/4/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: >Right, but Bill was relating how he feels. We're not as comfortable with Moslems as >we are with other Christians, even those Christians with whom we share little in >common (in some cases, there are groups, like Ismailis, with whom we might have more >in common than we would with other Christians, imo, ironically). I am just as comfortable with Moslems and Buddhists as I am with traditional Christians, perhaps more so. Moslems and Buddhists have a much better excuse for their ignorance. Traditional Christians are sinning against a much greater light when they reject the servants of God, our missionaries. It is not a coincidence that nearly all foaming-at-mouth anti-Mormons are so-called Christians. It was primarily these other Christian denominations that the Lord had reference to when he told Joseph that their creeds were an abomination and all their professors corrupt. Of course, I am aware that this attitude is no longer politically correct in the Church. But it is the attitude that I share with such men as Smith, Young, Talmage, and McConkie. So I feel that I am in good company. I won't forget what falsehood this gospel has freed me from. My own mother wouldn't join me in the gospel because her Baptist friends persuaded her that she had lost me to a cult. She threw the missionaries out of her home half way through the first missionary discussion, a discussion the she had agreed to only because I was her son. I have more hope for the alcoholics and drug addicts in this world than I do for my mother. How many people actually get a chance to throw Mormon missionaries out of their home? The Lord will judge her, not I. But he has made clear who is saved in the Kingdom of God, and who is damned. And it all hinges on believing Christ and his missionaries. If we believe in Christ and accept his one true baptism, then we are saved in the Kingdom of God. And if we don't, we aren't. It is actually pretty cut and dried, black and white. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
At 01:00 PM 10/4/02 -0400 Jon Spencer favored us with: >That thar's the basis for strife. Or as UBL would say "Christianity is a false >religion. Ours is true. It makes all the difference. --UBL" Who is UBL? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
Right, but Bill was relating how he feels. We're not as comfortable with Moslems as we are with other Christians, even those Christians with whom we share little in common (in some cases, there are groups, like Ismailis, with whom we might have more in common than we would with other Christians, imo, ironically). But more to the point politically speaking, Moslems ask themselves the same questions. They've taken different approaches in different countries -- we're not as a group aware of the tremendous diversity of the "Islamic world". Many of these countries ask questions relating to what it means to be Arab as opposed to Islamic, for instance (Iran is not an Arab country, for instance; neither is India, Pakistan, or Indonesia, and Morocco and Algeria have substantial Berber populations). Also many "Moslem" countries have historically had large non-Moslem minorities, although the size of those minorities have dwindled in the past century. Baghdad used to be around 20% Jewish, believe it or not. Egypt is still around 10% Christian, and while the al-Assads, both late father and son and current president, are both, technically speaking Moslem, they are secularist in their politics (as is Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak and Jordan [can't remember the new king's name]), but the al-Assads come from a despised minority known as the Alawites, considered by most Moslems not even to be real Moslems (sound familiar?). "al-Assad" isn't even the real family name. That's Arabic for "the lion" and is *not* an Alawite name; they'd never dare take on such a "presumptuous" name. It's an accident of history that, with the help of the French, one of their number came to be in charge of Syria. Lebanon's the best question. There are, last time I looked, 12 or 13 "official" religious groups, "official" in this sense meaning they have a right to denominational representation in running the country. Lebanon is "denominationalist" in that its constitution guarantees a certain power-sharing split between the three major groups, and the others get lumped in with one of the major groups. The only problem is that the group that used to be the smallest (the Shi'ites) are now the largest and vice versa (Marionite Christians), and that's what led to the civil war back in the Reagan era. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 10:05 PM 10/3/02 -0400 Grampa Bill favored us with: > >Grampa Bill comments: > > I do. But in all candor, I must admit that I would be very uncomfortable if I >heard a Muslim say, " I am a Moslem first, and then an American." > > Islam is a false religion. Ours is true. It makes all the difference. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
That thar's the basis for strife. Or as UBL would say "Christianity is a false religion. Ours is true. It makes all the difference. --UBL" Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > At 10:05 PM 10/3/02 -0400 Grampa Bill favored us with: > >Grampa Bill comments: > > I do. But in all candor, I must admit that I would be very uncomfortable if I heard a Muslim say, " I am a Moslem first, and then an American." > > Islam is a false religion. Ours is true. It makes all the difference. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
At 10:05 PM 10/3/02 -0400 Grampa Bill favored us with: >Grampa Bill comments: > I do. But in all candor, I must admit that I would be very uncomfortable if I >heard a Muslim say, " I am a Moslem first, and then an American." Islam is a false religion. Ours is true. It makes all the difference. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
I am an American Saint. The two go together and should cause no one angst, even Canadian Saints, or American Saints living in Japan. Jon Grampa Bill wrote: > Our BLT wrote: > > > > I am a saint first, and then an American. I hope we all feel that way. > > === > Grampa Bill comments: > I do. But in all candor, I must admit that I would be very uncomfortable if I heard a Muslim say, " I am a Moslem first, and then an American." / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
Our BLT wrote: > > I am a saint first, and then an American. I hope we all feel that way. === Grampa Bill comments: I do. But in all candor, I must admit that I would be very uncomfortable if I heard a Muslim say, " I am a Moslem first, and then an American." Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah Check out my "General Authority Pages," the most comprehensive source of information on the General Authorities available anywhere(!!!) on my web site at: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/w/o/wol3 Comments welcome. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
Well put. If history had been a bit different, the borders would be different anyway, so nation-states aren't as "cast in stone" as people seem to think. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Sometimes I get a little tired of the nationalist chest beating that some on this >list indulge themselves in, especially the USA vs. Canada variety. We are all >saints. Our allegiance is the Kingdom of God, and only secondarily to Canada or the >USA. I think if we are honest with ourselves we will all realize that our two >countries are far from being that Zion where the pure in heart dwell. I a saint >first, and then I'm an American. As a saint who loves his country, it grieves me to >see my country behaving dishonorably. But that does not make me a traitor to my >country. In a democratic republic such as we have, all of us are suppose to speak up >for the policies that we think are right and good. A person cannot be a traitor >merely by voicing an unpopular opinion. > > I am a saint first, and then an American. I hope we all feel that way. > > Your friend and brother, > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] A Saint First, Then an American
Sometimes I get a little tired of the nationalist chest beating that some on this list indulge themselves in, especially the USA vs. Canada variety. We are all saints. Our allegiance is the Kingdom of God, and only secondarily to Canada or the USA. I think if we are honest with ourselves we will all realize that our two countries are far from being that Zion where the pure in heart dwell. I a saint first, and then I'm an American. As a saint who loves his country, it grieves me to see my country behaving dishonorably. But that does not make me a traitor to my country. In a democratic republic such as we have, all of us are suppose to speak up for the policies that we think are right and good. A person cannot be a traitor merely by voicing an unpopular opinion. I am a saint first, and then an American. I hope we all feel that way. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
