Re: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
. . . and could also be explained this way: Because Jesus Christ is literally the God of Nature, and is "in all and through all things," it stands to reason that as Christ suffered, so did his creations. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:13 PM 8/25/2003, you wrote: That all can be easily explained by bearing the sins of everyone and the planets' sympathy for what was going on. I had an interesting experience while reading all of this. Shockingly, it seems I had a crazy memory of one day as a spirit being hurled around for no reason I could fathom at the time. I was pushed, shoved rudely, landed in several positions, etc. Stacy. At 10:17 AM 08/25/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 08:11 PM 8/24/2003, Stacy wrote: I see nothing to indicate anything but human sins borne out of this. Stacy. At 09:32 PM 08/24/2003 -0600, Steven Montgomery wrote: Thus, such was the torturing pressure of this intense, this indescribable agony, that it burst forth abroad beyond the confines of His body, convulsed all nature and spread throughout all space. I think you missed it then. The full depth and extent of Christ's atonement can be expressed in the sentence above, which is really a deeper explanation of several scriptures, among them: D&C 19: 18 "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink" (Note that Christ suffered both body *and* spirit. Since we are told from other scriptures that the spirit of Christ extends throughout all of space and creation this is truly an *infinite* suffering, in order to accomplish an *infinite* atonement.) 1 Nephi 19:12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers. (So you see, the suffering of Christ even extended to nature, and all of his creations, and was made possible only because the Spirit of Christ proceeds forth to "fill the immensity of space" (D&C 88: 12). -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
That all can be easily explained by bearing the sins of everyone and the planets' sympathy for what was going on. I had an interesting experience while reading all of this. Shockingly, it seems I had a crazy memory of one day as a spirit being hurled around for no reason I could fathom at the time. I was pushed, shoved rudely, landed in several positions, etc. Stacy. At 10:17 AM 08/25/2003 -0600, you wrote: At 08:11 PM 8/24/2003, Stacy wrote: I see nothing to indicate anything but human sins borne out of this. Stacy. At 09:32 PM 08/24/2003 -0600, Steven Montgomery wrote: Thus, such was the torturing pressure of this intense, this indescribable agony, that it burst forth abroad beyond the confines of His body, convulsed all nature and spread throughout all space. I think you missed it then. The full depth and extent of Christ's atonement can be expressed in the sentence above, which is really a deeper explanation of several scriptures, among them: D&C 19: 18 "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink" (Note that Christ suffered both body *and* spirit. Since we are told from other scriptures that the spirit of Christ extends throughout all of space and creation this is truly an *infinite* suffering, in order to accomplish an *infinite* atonement.) 1 Nephi 19:12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers. (So you see, the suffering of Christ even extended to nature, and all of his creations, and was made possible only because the Spirit of Christ proceeds forth to "fill the immensity of space" (D&C 88: 12). -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
At 08:11 PM 8/24/2003, Stacy wrote: I see nothing to indicate anything but human sins borne out of this. Stacy. At 09:32 PM 08/24/2003 -0600, Steven Montgomery wrote: Thus, such was the torturing pressure of this intense, this indescribable agony, that it burst forth abroad beyond the confines of His body, convulsed all nature and spread throughout all space. I think you missed it then. The full depth and extent of Christ's atonement can be expressed in the sentence above, which is really a deeper explanation of several scriptures, among them: D&C 19: 18 "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink" (Note that Christ suffered both body *and* spirit. Since we are told from other scriptures that the spirit of Christ extends throughout all of space and creation this is truly an *infinite* suffering, in order to accomplish an *infinite* atonement.) 1 Nephi 19:12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers. (So you see, the suffering of Christ even extended to nature, and all of his creations, and was made possible only because the Spirit of Christ proceeds forth to "fill the immensity of space" (D&C 88: 12). -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
I see nothing to indicate anything but human sins borne out of this. Stacy. At 09:32 PM 08/24/2003 -0600, you wrote: In my opinion, the best answer to your question is provided by President John Taylor. In 1882, President John Taylor (written while he was President of the Church) wrote a book called, _The Mediation and Atonement_, and in this book there is a chapter which explains the extent and depth of Christ's suffering. Forgive me for the length but I'll post the chapter in its entirety: THE Redeemer Himself, when tabernacling in the flesh, said to His disciples on the Eastern Continent, "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."Luke, xviii, 16, 17. And after His crucifixion and resurrection He repeated this same admonition to His Nephite disciples: "And again I say unto you, Ye must repent, and be baptized in my name and become as a little child, or ye can in no wise inherit the kingdom of God."3 Nephi, xi 38 Without Adam's transgression those children could not have existed; through the atonement they are placed in a state of salvation without any act of their own. These would embrace, according to the opinion of statisticians, more than one-half of the human family, who can attribute their salvation only to the mediation and atonement of the Savior. Thus, as stated elsewhere, in some mysterious, incomprehensible way, Jesus assumed the responsibility which naturally would have devolved upon Adam; but which could only be accomplished through the mediation of Himself, and by taking upon Himself their sorrows, assuming their responsibilities, and bearing their transgressions or sins. In a manner to us incomprehensible and inexplicable, he bore the weight of the sins of the whole world; not only of Adam, but of his posterity; and in doing that, opened the kingdom of heaven, not only to all believers and all who obeyed the law of God, but to more than one-half of the human family who die before they come to years of maturity, as well as to the heathen, who, having died without law, will, through His mediation, be resurrected without law, and be judged without law, and thus participate, according to their capacity, works and worth, in the blessings of His atonement. Again, there is another phase of this subject that must not be forgotten. From the commencement of the offering of sacrifices the inferior creature had to suffer for the superior. Although it had taken no part in the act of disobedience, yet was its blood shed and its life sacrificed, thus prefiguring the atonement of the Son of God, which should eventually take place. The creature indeed was made subject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope. Millions of such offerings were made, and hecatombs of these expiatory sacrifices were offered in view of the great event that would be consummated when Jesus should offer up Himself. With man this was simply the obedience to a command and a given law, and with him might be considered simply a pecuniary sacrifice: with the animals it was a sacrifice of life. But what is the reason for all this suffering and bloodshed, and sacrifice? We are told that "without shedding of blood is no remission" of sins. This is beyond our comprehension. Jesus had to take away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, the just for the unjust, but, previous to this grand sacrifice, these animals had to have their blood shed as types, until the great antitype should offer up Himself once for all. And as He in His own person bore the sins of all, and atoned for them by the sacrifice of Himself, so there came upon Him the weight and agony of ages and generations the indescribable agony consequent upon this great sacrificial atonement wherein He bore the sins of the world, and suffered in His own person the consequences of an eternal law of God broken by man. Hence His profound grief, His indescribable anguish, His overpowering torture, all experienced in the submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah and the requirements of an inexorable law. The suffering of the Son of God was not simply the suffering of personal death; for in assuming the position that He did in making an atonement for the sins of the world He bore the weight, the responsibility, and the burden of the sins of all men, which, to us, is incomprehensible. As stated, "the Lord, your Redeemer, suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffereth the pains of all men;" and Isaiah says: "Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows," also, "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all," and again, "He hath poured out his soul unto death, and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sins of many;" or, as it is written in the Second Book of Nephi: "For behold, he
Re: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
At 04:30 PM 8/24/2003, you wrote: Hi. I'm reading some books on the atonement of Jesus Christ. There has been a general expression in at least one of the books I am reading (all by LDS authors but not all authorities) that Jesus Christ took upon Himself more than the sins of all the people in all of the infinite worlds which He created, that he also took upon Himself all infirmities, all forms of temptation, etc. The Bible only seems to spell out the one temptation experience in the wilderness, unless I've missed something in the JST. The Bible also does not suggest that, for instance, Jesus took upon Himself the same experience I go through as a blind woman in modern life or that He took upon Himself somehow the experiences of a woman in childbirth, etc., etc., etc. You get the picture of what I'm asking, I hope. How can we either prove or disprove this hypothesis or should we even try? We know He went through far more pain than anyone else has ever done and lived and we know also that the Father left Him for a time during the Atonement. Are we missing something else or are people making more out of the Atonement than needs to be? My friend in Provo thinks so. Stacy. In my opinion, the best answer to your question is provided by President John Taylor. In 1882, President John Taylor (written while he was President of the Church) wrote a book called, _The Mediation and Atonement_, and in this book there is a chapter which explains the extent and depth of Christ's suffering. Forgive me for the length but I'll post the chapter in its entirety: THE Redeemer Himself, when tabernacling in the flesh, said to His disciples on the Eastern Continent, "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."Luke, xviii, 16, 17. And after His crucifixion and resurrection He repeated this same admonition to His Nephite disciples: "And again I say unto you, Ye must repent, and be baptized in my name and become as a little child, or ye can in no wise inherit the kingdom of God."3 Nephi, xi 38 Without Adam's transgression those children could not have existed; through the atonement they are placed in a state of salvation without any act of their own. These would embrace, according to the opinion of statisticians, more than one-half of the human family, who can attribute their salvation only to the mediation and atonement of the Savior. Thus, as stated elsewhere, in some mysterious, incomprehensible way, Jesus assumed the responsibility which naturally would have devolved upon Adam; but which could only be accomplished through the mediation of Himself, and by taking upon Himself their sorrows, assuming their responsibilities, and bearing their transgressions or sins. In a manner to us incomprehensible and inexplicable, he bore the weight of the sins of the whole world; not only of Adam, but of his posterity; and in doing that, opened the kingdom of heaven, not only to all believers and all who obeyed the law of God, but to more than one-half of the human family who die before they come to years of maturity, as well as to the heathen, who, having died without law, will, through His mediation, be resurrected without law, and be judged without law, and thus participate, according to their capacity, works and worth, in the blessings of His atonement. Again, there is another phase of this subject that must not be forgotten. From the commencement of the offering of sacrifices the inferior creature had to suffer for the superior. Although it had taken no part in the act of disobedience, yet was its blood shed and its life sacrificed, thus prefiguring the atonement of the Son of God, which should eventually take place. The creature indeed was made subject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope. Millions of such offerings were made, and hecatombs of these expiatory sacrifices were offered in view of the great event that would be consummated when Jesus should offer up Himself. With man this was simply the obedience to a command and a given law, and with him might be considered simply a pecuniary sacrifice: with the animals it was a sacrifice of life. But what is the reason for all this suffering and bloodshed, and sacrifice? We are told that "without shedding of blood is no remission" of sins. This is beyond our comprehension. Jesus had to take away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, the just for the unjust, but, previous to this grand sacrifice, these animals had to have their blood shed as types, until the great antitype should offer up Himself once for all. And as He in His own person bore the sins of all, and atoned for them by the sacrifice of Himself, so there came upon Him the weight and agony of ages and generations the indescribable agony consequen
RE: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
This doesn't quite answer the question, although it may seem to answer it. Some have implied that Jesus took on the experience of every single man, woman and child. Stacy. At 09:00 PM 08/24/2003 -0400, you wrote: Here is a quote from Alma, chapter 7, that may help: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. I remember that Elder Eyring quoted this in one of his books and pointed that he took on more than just our sins. NB -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine?
Here is a quote from Alma, chapter 7, that may help: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. I remember that Elder Eyring quoted this in one of his books and pointed that he took on more than just our sins. NB > -Original Message- > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:30 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] The Atonement and False Doctrine? > > > Hi. I'm reading some books on the atonement of Jesus Christ. > There has > been a general expression in at least one of the books I am > reading (all by > LDS authors but not all authorities) that Jesus Christ took > upon Himself > more than the sins of all the people in all of the infinite > worlds which He > created, that he also took upon Himself all infirmities, all forms of > temptation, etc. The Bible only seems to spell out the one > temptation > experience in the wilderness, unless I've missed something in > the JST. The > Bible also does not suggest that, for instance, Jesus took > upon Himself the > same experience I go through as a blind woman in modern life > or that He > took upon Himself somehow the experiences of a woman in > childbirth, etc., > etc., etc. You get the picture of what I'm asking, I hope. > How can we > either prove or disprove this hypothesis or should we even > try? We know He > went through far more pain than anyone else has ever done and > lived and we > know also that the Father left Him for a time during the > Atonement. Are we > missing something else or are people making more out of the > Atonement than > needs to be? My friend in Provo thinks so. > > Stacy. > > > -- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
