[Zope] Response to Matijn Faassen Grok/Zope 2 question.

[Rene B]

Thanks for the feed back. I didn't expect the responses i got from a post
 placed.

I like some of the suggestions.  Some one mentioned he used Zope 2 as 
a container
 for his Python scripts. He used Python as much as possible for logic and 
sparingly
 used DTML and ZPT to view the results. i like this approach.
I'll stick with Zope 2 to continue the learning curve.
I wanted to answer some questions asked by Martijn Fassen
 regarding grok and what I liked about Zope 2.
I do like the Zope 2 ZMI.  It helps organize visually your MVC. I do like
 coding TTW and seeing a 
template file or controller all organized in a project directory and testing 
live just by clicking the link.  I 
also like the ADD feature. It list all the products/components you can add.
 It would be nice to have 
this in Grok since i don't know what is out there to add and what they do. 
 And add feature with a description/docs and simple code example
 would be nice. Example would be the the formlib. 
 a database connection(relational)  helper would be helpful too. I don't
 think i'll be diving into the ZODB 
right now for 2 reasons. There isn't a whole lot of ZODB docs and what
 happens if i create a project at 
work ( i,e, asset tracking ) and the other programmers in the office only
 know SQL . If i have all me data 
is in  ZODB how will they be able to get at it? If the asset tracking app
 grows i know these other programmers will wont to get to the
 data to do some adhoc report. I'll be cooked if they can't get to it 
via SQL. Unless there is a way i have not read about yet!
Maybe someone should write some reverse ORM to translate SQL
 and query a ZODB database!!!  stupid i 
know.

I will  go through the Grok Tutorials again. i did have a problem
 with installation.  
zope3recipes\winctl.py line 28  no module named win32api.
i may have missed some prerequisite.  I'll have to go through it again. 
 Zope 2 had a nice windows 
install .exe package!!!

The tutorial did have a few steps wrong. Naming the projects and
 packages come after module name 
and username and password. Not a big deal but i thought i would 
mention it.
my Grok install ended up in c:\python24\scripts\sample
it would be nice if Grok was installed in its own self contained
 directory with a self contained version of 
the required python version.  Just nice to keep it isolated from python 2.5 +.

The more docs and tutorials the better. Nothing in my opinion is more
 important to learning and 
sticking with a platform. if you run out of docs and tutorials to grow 
on you get soured quickly. 

once last thing about the ZMI and if it were to make its way to 
Grok ( even partially)!  
why not have the GMI add some code for you automatically like :

import Grok
Class Sample(grok.Application, grok.Container):
pass
Class index(grok.View):
pass

It would save typing if we could click New App and enter Sample and
 have the MI add the rest of the 
small code. Mabe i'm being lazy but Zope 2 seemed to hide this from you.
same with the rest of the controllers and templates
add   controller enter index. the rest of code is genersted.
add  template  template name index.pt.




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[Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy

[Rene B]

I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a 
few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also 
looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah.
I’m beginning to think there’s nothing  out there  for a newbie python 
programmer like myself.  I’m a Network Admin  that likes programming but 
doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it.
I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used.  I’ve 
written a  few scripts .
I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you  it’s impossible to 
select a tool.
I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above.  The most important thing in my 
decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic 
site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. 
Its not python.  Not even close.  Out of all the ones I’ve researched I like 
Zope 2 the best.  Not sure why. I want some thing easy.  I like DTML. It’s 
easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it doesn’t come 
close to DTML. Most people like me wont  be building complex web sites and  I’d 
be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic 
portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about  an HTML editor getting 
confused with the dynamic languages  mixed in blah blah  blah.

I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. 
Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going 
anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support  on it when needed and I’m 
sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.  
Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins for any 
template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template 
languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that 
you like.  So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the 
one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose.
Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard.  I like Mod_python with 
PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet Mod_Python 
has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular.
The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don’t 
know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new.  Zope 3 is out of 
the question. Grok looks to me like  another CherryPy. It may be easier the 
Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it installed on my 
windows XP to play. 
I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. 
Plus no auto generated content  like you get in Zope 2.  Yes some magic is 
good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some 
magic. saves time.  Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me.
So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 
2002. Plone is tooo much.
There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there 
haven’t been touched for years.
Zope 2 wiki seems dead.  I was looking the other day for some type of  auto 
CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find  anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new 
to Zope 2 which scares me the most.
If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to be around 
for awhile and have good support and new addons  being added all of the time to 
help me.


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