Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Thank you all for your replies. I have an idea on how to begin: I'll go with mySQL and see how it works out. I will use both PHP and Python for the prototype. My issue no longer fits within the scope of this mailing list. Without your support it would have been impossible for me to get started. Thanks!sareesh ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Hi NielsI agree with you, even though I have no experience. But I'm restricted by hosting options for Zope at the moment, and will revert to Python once the project is deployed - and when I figure out whether mySQL is good enough or not. I hate having to type all those extra characters in php though.sareesh From: n...@syndicat.com To: ays...@hotmail.com; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 11:25:18 +0100 Am Sonntag, 4. Dezember 2011, 16:15:13 schrieben Sie: As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to go with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? ...just from my experience: PHP is - for different, but mainly technical/historical reasons - very widely spread within web applications, one major reason was/is i.e. the large (because easy) availability on low cost hosting environments in the past - but the most advantages was/are on the side of the hosting providers PHP might be easier to learn then other languages or frameworks, but maintaining large / complex applications / software projects within PHP could be a real mess. We develop nearly any web application with Zope / ZODB since = 10 years but are a hosting company byself - so we was not bound to PHP as many other internet hosting users in the past. A colleagues company produces very high level expert systems on Perl and Catalyst - requiring high skilled Perl programmers. From my experience developing within Zope / ZODB (with Python, DTML and/or ZPT) allows very high quality products within very short timeframes and even further maintaining the project is relative ressource efficient - especially compared to PHP. Most web application data structures (i.e. a simple web page) fit's much better by a oo object strategy then a relational (RDBMS) one. The major typical ressource hole within typical PHP+SQL web applications or i.e. a CMS solution is the translation of typical data objects into tables and vice versa. Producing i.e. one simple CMS page within a PHP-SQL CMS easily could trigger hundreds of SQL requests into many different tables - a significant overhead which has to implemented by developers and handled by the machines. But this is my view onto the issue - just my two cents... cheers, Niels. -- --- Niels Dettenbach Syndicat ITInternet http://www.syndicat.com/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope Digest, Vol 91, Issue 2
is to truly succeed, it must reach the capability to marry disjointed tools into seamless workflows. If I want to cook a recipe, the app should be able to tell me which ingredients to use, which manufacturers to buy from, the quantity and proportion, how to slice and dice, which way to cook it...etc. The app is an expert system. The end user is a layman who needs to find the best workflow without having to think about it. I feel like the layman who needs my own expert system! So: Do I need ZODB or am I going to be okay with mySQL? My confusion is restricted to Object DB vs RDB vs RDB+ORM. Among all the aspects of the project, this is the most boring and laborious to me, and I want to get it right the first time. I am confident I can make the logic work (the fun part), but I don't know how to manage the data (the boring part). Actually I like your suggestion, and I will code my project in PHP (or Python if I can find a way to use it with mySQL) using text files. I will use mySQL to start adding the data for the prototype. Hopefully things will work out! sareesh Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 00:14:25 +0100 From: ferna...@cmartins.nl To: ays...@hotmail.com CC: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Digest, Vol 91, Issue 2 On 12/05/2011 03:12 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote: Hi John and Fernando Intuitively I feel that my project fits in with an Object DB, which is why I have spent a lot of time trying to understand its methodology. But now I'm more confused than ever. Sareesh, could you be more specific about what confuses you? You have several routes, you need to give proper consideration to those routes. Maybe it would also help us if you clarify what is your skillset and experience in software development. Also, is your problem a CIM one? see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-integrated_manufacturing and specifically the key challenge listed over there. I have the impression you might be underestimating the problem. Finally, do you already have information about the tools in some electronic format? And what about the rules to choose tools? Is there already some computer based solution to help with the current problem? Please keep in mind that OOP and Object DB is not the same thing. You can work with objects in Python and never rely on OODB. I have serious doubts about using ZODB at your stage because AFAIK, creating custom objects requires the development of zope Products. Note that the zope book does not teach you about creating custom objects in the ZODB. You need another whole book for that. And the combination RDB and ZODB suggested by Neils/John seems too complicated as a start. I think you have a high learning curve ahead of you if have to learn to create Zope Packages to put objects in ZODB. But maybe there are simpler ways that I am not aware of. I'm sure OOP in Python and RDB is a good option. ZODB itself, I'm not so sure. Maybe others can enlighten you better here. It appears to me you don't have much experience and it looks like there is a long evolutionary project ahead of you. For these reasons, I would highly recommend Python. BTW, I never recommended and I do not recommend C/C++ for your needs, I just mentioned that I used it for a similar purpose many years ago. I would recommend you to do some programming in Python just to read some tool data from a text file, create some objects and try to do some tool selection where the output is merely done with print. Then you can upgrade to use MySQL to store your tool data and then you can decide if you go the Zope or the PHP route. Keep in mind that RDBs are a huge standard with many people and tools around it, whereas ZODB is very much a small niche in comparison. That should also weigh in your criteria. Regards, Fernando ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Thanks AJ. I assumed an OODBMS would be the right choice because of the object nature of my 'tools'. Of course, it was an assumption. Instead of Pyramid+RDBMS, can I use PHP+mySQL (my current hosting provider supports this).If ZODB isn't for my project, then would a GraphDB help? I have no idea on where to start with Graph DB - I've read the wikis and it's made me more confused. -ss Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 08:40:28 +0100 From: li...@zopyx.com To: ays...@hotmail.com CC: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - From reading: your database model appears pretty much relational. Where would you take advantages from using Zope as framework? This sounds like a task for Pyramid + RDBMS or a graph DB. - -aj Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote: I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time constraint. *About the App:* The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI) that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass through many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something like a very complicated car wash. Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages in the process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version updates. Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool. Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties. Some of these tools are linked to each other - e.g if one tool is selected, there are only n tools that can correspond to it for the next step in the process. I also have the problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database without spelling out each number, as in the example above. The total number of tools needed for the process can be defined at the beginning, however, it will change as the application becomes more complex in the future. I plan to address every contingency in the process. The idea is - if the user inputs the initial parameters and the desired outcome (another set of parameters), the app must find the 'best' path - sort of like a decision tree. The best path can be the fastest, cheapest, etc. I would like the user to choose what is best for him/her. Unfortunately, parameters might change, relationships might change (but not regularly) - the 'rules' I will be using might be revised for better accuracy in prediction. I also need to track each user's path and solutions' for future reference (but no personal details except username and email address for logging in). Maybe when the app is up and running, I'd like to make it more democratic, with users contributing to refining the logic/rules involved. If possible, I would also like the app to output a graphical flowchart at the end showing the workflow with all tools grouped in an easy to understand layout. *My questions:* 1. Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit? 2. Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such a project in ZOPE. Which is the best place to start learning for a newbie? 3. Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports Zope fully but is not expensive? 4. Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be better served programming it from scratch with Python? I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers. Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL. Adam ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) - -- ZOPYX Limited | zopyx group Charlottenstr. 37/1 | The full-service network for Zope Plone D-72070 Tübingen| Produce Publish www.zopyx.com | www.produce-and-publish.com - E-Publishing, Python, Zope Plone development, Consulting
Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Thanks Niels. Just to clarify:Does my particular instance fall under an OODBMS model or a RDBMS model (with ORM if necessary)? I will begin by reading the Zope Book. Thanks for your assistance. Appreciate it. -ss Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App From: n...@syndicat.com Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 09:24:10 +0100 To: ays...@hotmail.com; zope@zope.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Sareesh Sudhakaran ays...@hotmail.com schrieb: My questions:Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit?Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such a project in ZOPE. This hardly depends from your data structure, but with Zope you have the option to use ZODB and SQL DBs like MySQL in parallel. Typical relational data should go into a SQLDB while complex / oo Data structures should go into ZODB. We developed several complex to very complex web based applications - incl. expert systems - on Zope ZODB plus MySQL. I can't believe that someone would be able to solve such issues with PHP/SQL within the same time / ressources. Which is the best place to start learning for a newbie? You should start by trying the short zope practice / excercise as described in the Zope book. The Zope Book should be the best source for getting into Zope step by step from nothing. ß) Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports Zope fully but is not expensive? Looking for zope hosting or similiar in google should advice you. Our company - as one of many - offers Zope hosting to. Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be better served programming it from scratch with Python? There are different modules as i.e. Python Imaging (PIL) and higher level modules. I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers. Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL. Yes, because the peoples did not know anything other solution usually... cheers, Niels. - -- Niels Dettenbach Syndicat ITInternet http://www.syndicat.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.0.8 iIEEAREIAEEFAk7bLio6HE5pZWxzIERldHRlbmJhY2ggKFN5bmRpY2F0IElUJklu dGVybmV0KSA8bmRAc3luZGljYXQuY29tPgAKCRBU3ERlZRyiDUhlAJ4/XPl3Oet6 XN4UlkQ611FNoWqZCwCfZ1IPVjaLMD32wOlFE9cDnrm6bJQ= =ukyi -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Thanks Fernando! I really appreciate the time and effort you have put in answering my query. My personality sides with Python but my hosting provider does not support Django or Zope. As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to go with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? Can I just start out with a framework like Symphony instead? In the future I'll have to use either Python or C/C++ for my business logic and math. But the focus now is to get a prototype out, and if I'm doomed to change everything later I might as well start with the easiest and most obvious. Is this a viable starting point compared to what you have suggested? Or am I missing something? -Sareesh Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:28:36 +0100 From: ferna...@cmartins.nl To: ays...@hotmail.com CC: n...@syndicat.com; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App On 12/04/2011 09:52 AM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote: Thanks Niels. Just to clarify: Does my particular instance fall under an OODBMS model or a RDBMS model (with ORM if necessary)? Data modelling is a bit of an art and probably you could tackle your problem with any approach. I think the important is for you to figure out which model suits more your personality. No kidding. I would personally start with the RDBMS approach considering only the information you provide. Also, you can easily use zope in combination with a RDBMS. When you read the book, beware that zope has been changing from a through the web approach, to a typical file system based approach, which is a loss, but it seems to be what suits the needs of the zope developers. The approach I use is: zpt page - (one) Python Script - (some) ZSQL Methods - MySQL The zpt defines the layout of the pages, the ZSQL Methods retrieve the data needed and the Python script massages the data to make it suitable for the ZPT page. Or the other way around, from user input in a form to storage in the database. The advantage of the relational approach is that it is a very well understood model and although different people will still come to different models there are sufficient objective guidelines out there (e.g., the normalization rules, and then criteria for when to denormalise) to help you along. Furthermore, there are lots of people in db-related forums that can help you. Also, RDBMS provides you with a standard query language, SQL, which plenty of systems and tools can use. In general, RDBMS gives you the safest approach to keep your data and not loose it when you need to migrate either the front-end or the back-end. This language is very powerful and can avoid you a lot of low level programming. However, plenty of people can not deal well with SQL because it follows a paradigm so different from the classic imperative programming. With SQL, you specify the what, with the other languages you specify the how. The advantage of the what is that you can do a lot of data processing in a few lines of code. The problem with the what is that because you don't know the how of it, you feel you don't have control and you are led to say the language is obscure or unreadable. However, even if you are not comfortable with the what (you have to try to know), you can still rely on an library like SQLAlchemy to keep you a bit in the comfort zone of the how. So instead of learning SQL, you need to learn the API of a specific library. Your choice. I recommend the first by far. The real main issue with Relational is that it is a highly structured data model. It allows you to keep high quality data but if you don't get it right soon enough in the development cycle, some later changes can have a huge impact in the application, requiring rewrites. Furthermore, it works the best when you have many objects with the same properties. If you have many entities all different from each other (the tools in your case, maybe), then maybe a OODBMS might be better. But here, there is no standard language, or standard whatever. Perosnally, I would avoid as much as possible to put data in something like ZODB (I use it merely to store and manage the application). The problem with your specific case is that it does not seem to be a typical case of books and authors, which might be a risk for someone without experience. The issue Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000, is indeed tricky. I suspect in general the needs of your system will be too specific to be able to rely only on SQL queries. You would need to put a lot
Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
Thanks Fernando. I would choose ZOPE or Django and a new provider at the drop of a hat - if someone can confirm if that's the way to go. However, since, there are too many grey areas, it might be better if I stuck to what I have and see how things turn out. Once again, thanks for your support. Appreciate it! - Sareesh Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:19:25 +0100 From: ferna...@cmartins.nl To: ays...@hotmail.com CC: n...@syndicat.com; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App On 12/04/2011 05:15 PM, Sareesh Sudhakaran wrote: As you mentioned, if I have to use mySQL, isn't it better for me to go with PHP+mySQL - easier to learn and deploy? Can I just start out with a framework like Symphony instead? Well, if all you have is PHP + MySQL in your provider, there is no which is better question, is it? You might want to look at http://phptal.org/ a library that provides a templating system similar to ZPT. The advantage is the better separation between presentation and business layers. Regards, Fernando ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Help in deciding approach to Web App
I have a personal project - a web application I wanted to develop - but I'm confused on which route to take. I am not under any time constraint. About the App:The best I can describe it is as a kind of expert system (but not AI) that needs to find the best workflow for a process, given a set of initial and final parameters. E.g. a 'capsule' of data must pass through many 'tools' or 'environments' to reach a desired output - something like a very complicated car wash.Let's say there are many tools that can be used at various stages in the process. I have estimated there are at least 500 tools as of now, and it is bound to grow in the future as newer tools are introduced. Existing tools will also have version updates.Each tool, on average, has at least 100 properties that define the tool. Some of them have as high as 1000 unique properties. Some of these tools are linked to each other - e.g if one tool is selected, there are only n tools that can correspond to it for the next step in the process. I also have the problem of 'matching' the tools for analysis. E.g. Tool A might have only three fixed rpms - 100, 200 and 500, but Tool B might have rpms from 20 to 2000. I'm not sure how I can construct a database without spelling out each number, as in the example above.The total number of tools needed for the process can be defined at the beginning, however, it will change as the application becomes more complex in the future. I plan to address every contingency in the process. The idea is - if the user inputs the initial parameters and the desired outcome (another set of parameters), the app must find the 'best' path - sort of like a decision tree. The best path can be the fastest, cheapest, etc. I would like the user to choose what is best for him/her.Unfortunately, parameters might change, relationships might change (but not regularly) - the 'rules' I will be using might be revised for better accuracy in prediction.I also need to track each user's path and solutions' for future reference (but no personal details except username and email address for logging in). Maybe when the app is up and running, I'd like to make it more democratic, with users contributing to refining the logic/rules involved.If possible, I would also like the app to output a graphical flowchart at the end showing the workflow with all tools grouped in an easy to understand layout. My questions:Will the app be better served with a relational DB like mySQL or an Object database? After a lot of research I've guessed that my particular case might be better served with Python and Zope/ZODB. But I might be wrong? Maybe PHP+mySQL or Django is a better fit?Can anyone provide general advice on how to go about beginning such a project in ZOPE. Which is the best place to start learning for a newbie? Can anyone recommend a good shared hosting provider that supports Zope fully but is not expensive? Is there a module or app that is open source that I can use to output a graphical flowchart based on the results, or will I be better served programming it from scratch with Python?I would appreciate any help in getting started. Thank you in advance. I have tried most online forums but have not good any productive answers. Most of the answers I got were pro-PHP+mySQL. Adam ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
