Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 02:18:57PM -0800, Andy McKay wrote: For most small applications DTML can suffice, but when it gets large you should separate your code the way its intended, DTML is for simple logic and presentation ONLY. Whilst PythonMethods are cool, I would naturally stray away from them for the above reasons for anything longer than about 5 lines. But once you have done 5 lines of dtml, and yoo need to add sixth, what is more probable: 1. Rewrite as a pyhtonmethod 2. Just add the sixth line I have the creeping feeling, that dtml is the worst thing since csh. Fortunatly, even DC seems to have realized it. Zope's built in FTP server is one of it's huge stengths, IMO. He hasn't realised this and so bitches about it. You can always turn it off you know! Likewise the HTTP server, run Zope as a CGI if you must! :P "Apache already exists and is highly flexible and configurable" of course it is, use it if you want, grrr. TMTOWTODI. But cgi is slow. and using mod_proxy is not beatiful and adds latency. Besides, the zserver on 2.1.6 seems to have bugs that sometimes let the page only 90% through. I've really wondered, why all the trouble of using a own HTTP server, Apache is a great HTTP server and most users run it anyway. which leads to the natural question: Why isn't there a mod_zope module? -- Riku Voipio [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09-862 60764 ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Stefan H. Holek wrote: Why isn't there a mod_zope module? There certainly are mod_snake and mod_python. Has anybody tried to run Zope with one of those? Zope is a server by itself, it doesn't need to be embedded ito Apache. PLUG mode="shameless" There IS mod_pcgi2 to connect Apache to Zope. /PLUG There is mod_fastcgi also. Oleg. Oleg Broytmann http://www.zope.org/Members/phd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
On 1 Dec 2000, Brian Lloyd wrote: I think that this perception may be fostered by the fact that the current bug-tracking system (Collector) doesnt really let you see what has been done lately. Unless you happen to see the emails going out on resolution, you really aren't aware of the activity going on :( Indeed, I wrote this mostly because of the Collector's interface. I'm quite careful to write "it's not apparent to a casual observer whether DC is responsive or not," and do not claim anything about the accuracy of that perception. I've sent in a few patches through the Collector; sometimes the response is quick, sometimes it isn't, either of which can be a reasonable reaction depending on the seriousness of the bug. But it's often not apparent what's going on, at least to an outsider. The SourceForge bug tracking tools make it more apparent what's happening with a bug (or not happening); so does Bugzilla, but Bugzilla seems endlessly overcomplicated in other ways. --amk ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Oleg Broytmann wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Stefan H. Holek wrote: Why isn't there a mod_zope module? There certainly are mod_snake and mod_python. Has anybody tried to run Zope with one of those? Zope is a server by itself, it doesn't need to be embedded ito Apache. I (hope I) wasn't implying that Zope _needs_ to be embedded into Apache. ;) I for my part am quite happy with proxypassing. All I wanted to know is whether anybody had tried to run Zope with mod_python/mod_snake yet. Zope can be (and is) run as [pf]cgi and there are more or less valid reasons to do just that. Experiences anybody? PLUG mode="shameless" There IS mod_pcgi2 to connect Apache to Zope. /PLUG I know there is, and I might even try it one day ;) Regards, Stefan ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Stefan H. Holek wrote: I (hope I) wasn't implying that Zope _needs_ to be embedded into Apache. ;) I for my part am quite happy with proxypassing. All I wanted to know is whether anybody had tried to run Zope with But these modules does not run p/f-cgi - they run python scripts inside Apache. Zope does not need to be run inside Apache. mod_python/mod_snake yet. Zope can be (and is) run as [pf]cgi and there are more or less valid reasons to do just that. These are, actually, the only ways to run Zope :) Oleg. Oleg Broytmann http://www.zope.org/Members/phd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
But once you have done 5 lines of dtml, and yoo need to add sixth, what is more probable: 1. Rewrite as a pyhtonmethod 2. Just add the sixth line I have the creeping feeling, that dtml is the worst thing since csh. Fortunatly, even DC seems to have realized it. Its a double edged sword, DC started out with the quite correct and honorable intention of making DTML simply a templating, layout language, that did little or no complicated logic. But as people use Zope more, its popularity has grown by people wanting to do more and more in DTML, things like the sendmail tag, try etc. Whilst these are good they just seem to me to pervert what DTML is all about... Many people's initial reaction is that through DTML, ZClasses, PythonMethods everything can be done TTW. Once in that mind set it can be difficult to "escape" to python. But if they could just change sequence-item to sequence_item :) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
Karim Yaici wrote: Hi guys, I found this article written by someone from Quixote concerning Zope, describing its weaknesses and possible future development http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/why-not-zope.html This guy is quite far up his own arse :-) It's probably more useful to work around the problems he describes rather than bitching about them and telling people not to use Zope: The 'no grep' is probably the most serious of his points. You can easily get around it though, by using a ZCatalog. Admittedly, a decent search and replace interface (which I'm plugging for on zope-dev ;-) would be really nice (Zope 3? ;-) No CVS is also a problem, but with the improvements in the History tab and the like, this less of an issue. Besides, it's again easy to work around by keeping CVS-ish stuff on the filesystem either by putting them in python products or HTMLFiles. There's even ZCVSMixing should you really be pedantic. The test suite stuff is true for any web application, as has been discussed on the XP lists (so I'm told ;-) That said, there's ZUnit and PyUnit now, so I'm not sure that his opinion on this is valid at all. His comments about DTML are all valid, but it's a choice he'd made to write logic in DTML and he's a fool for doing so. IMNSHO, all 'logic' should be kept in python and you should never need to use the "" in a DTML tag. If you do, you're doing too much in DTML. Put it in a product or one of Evan's new-fangled python methods (although these aren't CVS'able, so I'd advise against it, unless is 'python scripting') If used this way, DTML actually provides quite a nice scripting layer for people who only understand/care about HTML, and there's the promise of XHTML for the future. He sees DTML's 'dynamic scoping' as a hinderance, it's actually one of its strengths. Yes, it can be confusing, but maybe you should just write code which doesn't make assumptions about variables, or handles the cases when they're not there. The same is true of acquisition and the namespaces concepts, maybe with better documentation, people like him wouldn't have such problems. Zope's built in FTP server is one of it's huge stengths, IMO. He hasn't realised this and so bitches about it. You can always turn it off you know! Likewise the HTTP server, run Zope as a CGI if you must! :P Oh yeah, TTW editing does _not_ mean code has to live in the ODB as I've already mentioned. Of course, in being behind Quixote, this guy has an alternative motive for slagging off Zope, but I do wish he wouldn't. In (almost) his own words, he just wants a filesystem of python scripts to build his website. Fine, but that doesn't solve a lot of people's problems and has a lot of limitations, hence Zope came into being. Yes, it's a complex beast but, if handled correctly, it'll save you loads of development time and leaves you with a graceful, quick application that is seperately configurable and scriptable, and has a _lot_ of code re-use. I'm pretty sure this is true for the vast majority of web applications but, of course, there are exceptions, although I'm not sure MEMS Exchange is one of them ;-) The one problem with Zope that he _should_ have mentioned is this: You have to try pretty hard to write nasty code in Python, which si why it's so great. Conversely, it's quite easy to build 'nasty' applications in Zope that are messy and hard to maintain. Such is life, that's a possibility I'm willing to live with for the power that Zope gives me. cheers, Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
I found this article written by someone from Quixote concerning Zope, describing its weaknesses and possible future development http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/why-not-zope.html No CVS is also a problem, but with the improvements in the History tab and the like, this less of an issue. Besides, it's again easy to work around by keeping CVS-ish stuff on the filesystem either by putting them in python products or HTMLFiles. There's even ZCVSMixing should you really be pedantic. Or put the business logic methods in a LocalFS and use CVS on the files. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Why Not Zope? 'Cos I like to bitch! ;-)
Andy McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The heavy lifting, logic and anything more should be in python. I won't pretend its particularly easy Zope hurt quite a lot some times, but we got there.. I think this is the biggest problem of Zope. Contrary to Python, Zope makes it /hard/ to do things the simple, clean, correct way. The easiest way to add behavior to Zoplications is to add more DTML tags to your web pages; the second-easiest way is Python methods but it's not clear to a lot of people what the calling semantics are; still a bit harder is to write special ZClasses with Python methods that encapsulate your behavior (you can only add ZClasses at one point in the tree, and that's always /not/ the point you are doing all the other work), and the hardest way is to separate stuff out in products (which means, as far as I understood it, hitting lots of "Restart" buttons and certainly means that you loose the multi-versioning capability of ZODB. There are lots of similarities between Zope and Smalltalk. Just gimme a decent class browser! ;-) -- Cees de Groot http://www.cdegroot.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD 1986 F303 937F E098 9E8B ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
