[Zope-dev] Re: /, XML, DTML syntaxgeddon

2000-08-18 Thread Spicklemire, Jerry

Hi Folks,

As for "re-doing" DTML, there's a cogent point made in Extreme Programming
circles that goes something like this:

"Names matter. For every time someone writes (types?) the name of an object,
it will be read 10 times. Pick Good Names."

Much of the DTML confusion arises from "names" that look like they were
chosen to save typing effort. That may be OK for a project that will never
be used by more than a small handful of folks who can answer questions for
each other, but Open Source Zope is going on it's second birthday now. Too
many newbies keep stumbling over things like "_", which should have been
named something meaningful quite some time ago. But that's just one example.
Instead of x vs. "x", how about render(x), or x.render(), and execute(x), or
x.execute(). 

Maybe expr="x" and name="y" are clear to someone, but what matters to me is
what process is going to be carried out on x and y, and I can't tell that
from reading DTML. I do understand that one of the points of OO is that I
shouldn't have to know the details of the actual process that happens when I
hand one object to another. 

Ironically, as things are, I have to "know" anyhow, in order to get things
working. But the worst part is, even after working through many examples of
complex DTML, this stuff is still not "obvious". The greatest mystery to me
is how something this obscure could have possibly been written in Python,
which is about as obvious as code gets.

Still Zopin',
Jerry S.


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[Zope-dev] Re: /, XML, DTML syntaxgeddon

2000-08-18 Thread Evan Simpson

From: Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I suggested the / thing to Steve who pointed out that
> &dtml-/folder/object; is bad XML/SGML and so 'Not a Good thing (tm)'

Yes, well, making DTML compatible with XML is explicitly *not* a current
goal, although having ':' as an alternative separator should make folks who
have to deal with it happy.  In all other naming areas, especially indirect
reference (ie. expr="_['/folder/object']") I much prefer slashes.

> What's this DTML syntaxgeddon then? ;-)
> This sounds like something I'd really be interested in as you can see
> from my ZTL proposal on dev.zope.org.

There are so many ideas for revising DTML that the whole thing ought to be
done as a single large change (the syntaxgeddon) rather than dribbling out
new features and spellings over time.  That can easily make people feel that
they can't keep up with "all these crazy changes".

> However, I'm pretty confident that when  say DTML is a mess right now,
> I'm not far wrong. How can I get involved in the process to try and
> rectify this?

Just keep giving feedback on those proposals.

Cheers,

Evan @ digicool & 4-am


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