Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
I highly recommend "the Quick Python Book" if you're already a programmer, looking to learn the new language. > From: Shane Hathaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > When I came to Zope, within a week I was getting ready to write a Python > product. (And I didn't even know Python yet! :-) ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
At 07:20 PM 6/27/01 +0200, you wrote: >Wrong Andy, >writing Python products is far easier than guessing how to pass a variable >to a DTML-method or other such DTML-Voodoo Even though I agree, I have to say it more politically correct: If you like clicky, clicky - interfaces, you like ZClasses If you like the keyboard to program (I love my Emacs in Python mode!!!), you write "real" Python products. But now for real; some people simply do not have the experience and knowledge to pick up the Python-based programming. To master a complete new object-oriented language with a complex API is not that easy; therefore people are using ZClasses. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
At 08:49 PM 6/27/01 -0400, Shane Hathaway wrote: >Andy McKay wrote: > > It depends on your experience. In your opinion you find it easier (now > I can > > write a Zope product in my sleep I agree). Most Zope users however, in my > > experience, try ZClasses first. > >When I came to Zope, within a week I was getting ready to write a Python >product. (And I didn't even know Python yet! :-) ) Well, I was not that fast (took me 6 month until I tried it), but I never did ZClasses either. I like the cleanness of Python too much. I did not follow the entire discussion, but I think if there are the right tools like mk-zprod (discussed on the other thread on zope-dev) with a nice front-end, then we can make the learning curve less steep and encourage people to develop "real" products in Python. ;-) In fact, in a couple of minutes I will release the first version of SmartWizard, which will allow to write nice front-ends like that. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
> When I came to Zope, within a week I was getting ready to write a Python > product. (And I didn't even know Python yet! :-) ) Shane, you by no means fit into a "Most Zope users" category :) Cheers. -- Andy McKay. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
Andy McKay wrote: > It depends on your experience. In your opinion you find it easier (now I can > write a Zope product in my sleep I agree). Most Zope users however, in my > experience, try ZClasses first. When I came to Zope, within a week I was getting ready to write a Python product. (And I didn't even know Python yet! :-) ) Shane ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
It depends on your experience. In your opinion you find it easier (now I can write a Zope product in my sleep I agree). Most Zope users however, in my experience, try ZClasses first. Cheers. -- Andy McKay. - Original Message - From: "Robert Rottermann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rene Pijlman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > Wrong Andy, > writing Python products is far easier than guessing how to pass a variable > to a DTML-method or other such DTML-Voodoo > > Robert > > - Original Message - > From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rene Pijlman" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 6:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > > > > It varies depending upon the version, I seem to remember old versions > didnt > > do that. Mind you if you are writing Python products you are pretty far up > > the learning curve :) > > > > -- > > Andy McKay > > > > ----- Original Message - > > From: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Rene Pijlman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 2:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > > > > > > > Rene Pijlman writes: > > > > A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... > > > > > > > > When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a > Python-based > > > > product, instead of saying > > > > > > > > "Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." > > > > > > > > Zope could say: > > > > > > > > "Sorry, this method has no docstring." > > > Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? > > > > > > > > > Dieter > > > > > > ___ > > > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > > > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > > > (Related lists - > > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > > (Related lists - > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > > > > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
Wrong Andy, writing Python products is far easier than guessing how to pass a variable to a DTML-method or other such DTML-Voodoo Robert - Original Message - From: "Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rene Pijlman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > It varies depending upon the version, I seem to remember old versions didnt > do that. Mind you if you are writing Python products you are pretty far up > the learning curve :) > > -- > Andy McKay > > - Original Message - > From: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Rene Pijlman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 2:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > > > > Rene Pijlman writes: > > > A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... > > > > > > When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a Python-based > > > product, instead of saying > > > > > > "Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." > > > > > > Zope could say: > > > > > > "Sorry, this method has no docstring." > > Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? > > > > > > Dieter > > > > ___ > > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > > (Related lists - > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > > > > > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Rene Pijlman writes: > > A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... > > > > When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a Python-based > > product, instead of saying > > > >"Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." > > > > Zope could say: > > > > "Sorry, this method has no docstring." > Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? I didn't loose half a day to this one, but I did loose at least fifteen minutes. And I'm a fairly experienced Zope/Python programmer. Furthermore, I do not in general run in debug mode during development. Most of the time I am developing with continual customer review, and the customers get confused and worried if the tracebacks appear on the error pages, so it's easier just to not use debug mode. I do, however, run with stupid log enabled. So if it is unacceptable to have a more informative non-debug message, it would be nice to have something show up in the stupid log. --RDM ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
[Clear error message when method in Python-based product has no doc string] > Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? I don't know, you may be right. I'll look into that. Thanks. But still, catching errors is not the same as debugging. I think Zope will be user friendlier when it gives a better error message directly. Coincidentally, I just received this Alertbox: "Established wisdom holds that good error messages are polite, precise, and constructive. The Web brings a few new guidelines: Make error messages clearly visible, reduce the work required to fix the problem, and educate users along the way." http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010624.html This is good reading for zope-dev's :-) It contains an interesting idea with respect to the learning curve: "Users read system documentation only when they are in trouble (that's the Second Law). They are particularly attentive when they want to recover from an error. Given this, you can use error messages as an educational resource to impart a small amount of knowledge to users. Of course, error messages should be brief and to the point, as should all Web content. However, error messages can still teach users a bit about how the system works and give them information they need to use it better. To further that end, the Web's underlying technology makes another guideline possible: Hypertext links can be used to connect a concise error message to a page with additional background material or an explanation of the problem. (Don't overdo this, though.) " He's right. It really would have helped if the Zope error message linked to a page explaining the error message, listing possible causes and advising to run Zope in debug mode. Would it be possible to link Zope error messages to a website (with a unique page for every error)? Maintaining the documentation per error on this website could very well be a community effort of course. Regards, Rene Pijlman ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
It varies depending upon the version, I seem to remember old versions didnt do that. Mind you if you are writing Python products you are pretty far up the learning curve :) -- Andy McKay - Original Message - From: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rene Pijlman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve > Rene Pijlman writes: > > A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... > > > > When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a Python-based > > product, instead of saying > > > > "Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." > > > > Zope could say: > > > > "Sorry, this method has no docstring." > Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? > > > Dieter > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
Rene Pijlman writes: > A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... > > When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a Python-based > product, instead of saying > > "Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." > > Zope could say: > > "Sorry, this method has no docstring." Doesn't it do precisely this when you run Zope in debug mode? Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Speed up the learning curve
A suggestion to cut the Zope learning curve down by half a day... When the programmer forgets the docstring in a method of a Python-based product, instead of saying "Sorry, the requested resource does not exist." Zope could say: "Sorry, this method has no docstring." Yes, I know this behaviour is well-documented. But the message gives no clue to lead the unwary newbie from the error to the documentation. There are so many useful things I could have done in this half day :-/ Regards, René Pijlman ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
